• Welcome to The Tolkien Forum! Connect with fellow Tolkien enthusiasts and join a community that is over two decades old, and still going strong. We look forward to meeting you.  Register

Tolkien's "Special" Words

Deimos said:
"Liege", "my liege", "Liege lord" when used as a direct address is always directed upward; that is, from an inferior (or subordinate) to one's superior.
It is never directed downward, never spoken by a superior to an inferior.
Click to expand...
Are you sure about that? If I have definition #1 correct, then Denethor calling Pippin "my liege" should be the same as him calling Pippin "my loyal subject". Why could it never be spoken from a superior to an inferior?

I think when I looked into the term, I found the term liege was related to the term league as in two parties being in league with each other; so both parties are lieges to each other, if I have it right.

liege Minas Tirith: "’Now tell me your tale, my liege,’ said Denethor, half kindly, half mockingly. ‘For the words of one whom my son so befriended will be welcome indeed.’”, [Definitions: 1. a loyal subject, or 2. a feudal superior to whom allegiance and service are due.]
 
I have never come across liege being used downward... doesn't mean you're not right, only that I've never read it used that way.
So...the OED says it was used to describe a vassal (subordinate) in relation to his superior. Example gives was liege man. Note however, that it is a description of the vassal, not a form of address.

Denethor is bestowing that address of superiority on Pippin who is "one whom my son so befriended" .
Boromir was in line to be the next Steward, the most powerful person in Gondor, hence Denethor is honoring Pippin because he was a companion of his son. Yet he is still lightly mocking him.

The etymology according to the OED is in dispute ( I have the 1980 edition) so I imagine it is still in dispute.
Since the word defines the relationship between lord and vassal ( Superior to subordinate) I wonder about the "league" association.
It seems more plausible that it's root is the Italian verb ligio , which means dutiful, failthful, loyal; all the traits of a vassal (Pippin) who swears fealty to a lord or ruler (Denethor).
 
Not to make any particular further point but I gathered a few more of Tolkien's lieges. (Perhaps it's liege as a contronym that's causing my interest.):

Liege as a direct address to the lord:
Eowyn to Aragorn: 'Wish me joy, my liege-lord and healer!'

Liege in reference to a lord:
Imrahil: 'As for me, the Lord Aragorn I hold to be my liege-lord, whether he claim it or no. His wish is to me a command...'
Liege being the subject of a lord:
Saeros after being "wounded" by Turin: 'The King's law is heavy upon those who hurt his lieges in the hall...'

Hunthor defending Brandir's name: 'You do evilly, Dorlas, to speak thus to the shame of your lord...You, his liege, have ever set [his counsels] at naught.'

Liege as a direct address from a lord to his subject (with some mockery):
Now tell me your tale, my liege,’ said Denethor, half kindly, half mockingly. ‘For the words of one whom my son so befriended will be welcome indeed.’


It seems (to me) liege qualifies as a contronym.

contronym: a word having two meanings that contradict one another
Sometimes, just to heighten the confusion, the same word ends up with contradictory meanings. This kind of word is called a contronym. Sanction, for instance, can either signify permission to do something or a measure forbidding it to be done. Cleave can mean cut in half or stick together. A sanguine person is either hotheaded and bloodthirsty or calm and cheerful. Something that is fast is either stuck firmly or moving quickly.
 
Again, you have to make the distinction between liege as a descriptor and liege as a spoken address to a person.
It is not contradictory in any of its uses.
Liege as a descriptor can go both up (subordinate talking of his superior, as Imrahil does), and it can go down, referring to a vassal as a liege-man ( note how liege-man is the opposite of liege lord).

Denethor's use of it does not make it a contronym for the simple reason that its typical use is not contronymic.
Denethor has chosen to use it in mockery, much as we might say of someone who does something really stupid (because he didn't think it through) , "Oh that was really genius." Genius is not a contronym; it does not mean both brilliant and stupid. We are using the term to mock the person, as Denethor uses "liege" to mock Pippin. The text states as much.
Thus leige is not a contronym. However, like any word that is not much used in everyday speech (we are not a feudal society), all its uses may be confusing, until one sorts them out.

btw, sanction is a most excellent example of a true contronym.
I cannot tell you the number of times I have read it and initially cannot decide if it's used to approve an act or to forbid it.
 
Last edited:
I don't want to bug you on it, but if you're willing to entertain another question...I'm wondering: would you agree (setting aside any hyphenated/modified versions of liege and any tone of sarcasm or mockery in the context) the following two sentences both correctly use the term?:

After Pippin took his oath, Denethor became a liege to Pippin.
After Pippin took his oath, Pippin became a liege to Denethor.

If your answer is yes I think that will wrap it up for me.
 
Since neither sentence is using 'liege' as a direct address to a person, both are correct usages of the term.
FWIW I never knew (until now, and looking it up in the OED) that the descriptor "liege" could be used for both the the superior and the subordinate.
So, I learned something 🙂

Note that the reason it "works in both directions" (up and down the social ranks) is that the word encompasses/implies duties/loyalties in both directions.
Read what Pippin states in his oath to Denethor; then what Denethor states in his acceptance of Pippin's oath.
Both men state the loyalties and duties to which they are binding themselves.

Also note the protocols of hierarchy: Pippin offers his fealty; Denethor could reject it for any reason, or no reason.
Denethor could have requested, even demanded Pippin's fealty (if Pippin had not first offered it), and Pippin could have refused it, but only at his peril.
Since Denethor is ruler not just of the City but of all Gondor, he could have Pippin imprisoned, even executed.
More likely he would have had him "escorted" to the borders, and denied him future entry on pain of death.
 
Last edited:
@Eljorahir ...I'm by no means an expert on "feudal" matters.
Everything I've said has come from what I have read on the topic over the years, including "historical novels" , epic poetry, works by medieval authors, or later authors (15th, 16th, 17th C ) writing about the Middle Ages. And of course, Tolkien and CS Lewis, and poking around the OED.
So I'm open to correction on any of what I have said.
 
Deimos said:
So I'm open to correction on any of what I have said.
Click to expand...
I certainly have no corrections to anything you said regarding feudal matters. My own readings in the genre are quite meager compared to yours: Ivanhoe, Beowulf, and (if a work of mockery counts) A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. These are the only titles that come to mind.

You're previous post helped greatly in reassuring me that we're now mostly on the same page regarding liege (as a word by itself.)

Whether it's really a contronym or not...maybe we're still of different minds (no big deal to me.)
That "my liege" as a direct address seems to be only directed from the vassal to the lord, we agree (mockery aside).

Understanding Denethor's half-kind/half-mocking comment to Pippin and his use of "my liege" (and what is the specific nature of the mockery) is the most important thing to me. And, our exchange has given me fuel for further ponderances. Thanks.

'Now tell me your tale, my liege,’ said Denethor, half kindly, half mockingly. ‘For the words of one whom my son so befriended will be welcome indeed.’
 
Last edited:
Eljorahir said:
'Now tell me your tale, my liege,’ said Denethor, half kindly, half mockingly. ‘For the words of one whom my son so befriended will be welcome indeed.’
Click to expand...
To me, the 'half-kindly, half-mockingly' seems to describe the way Denethor said it (his tone), rather than the words themselves. You can still talk down to or mock someone while using the polite/proper words.
 
Server Room Gremlin said:
To me, the 'half-kindly, half-mockingly' seems to describe the way Denethor said it (his tone), rather than the words themselves. You can still talk down to or mock someone while using the polite/proper words.
Click to expand...
I'm leaning this way as well. If the OED allows us to substitute the liege synonym that makes the most sense for the occasion, then Denethor is saying 'Now tell me your tale, my subject...' The mockery is much more mild and subtle this way. I think Denethor is moved to kindness by Pippin's gesture of taking the oath, but then he sees a three-foot tall subject with a knife for a sword and really doesn't value him much even as a subject.

After all, Pippin has just taken the oath to become Denethor's subject. If we apply the alternative synonym, Denethor calling Pippin "...my Lord..." makes no sense to me. Pippin has done nothing to warrant such a harsh mocking as this. He's not behaved the slightest bit lordly at all.
 
'Zactly. Pippin is Denethor's liege (as I recently learned from the OED 🙂) and Denethor could even in normal conversation refer to Pippin as his liege but only in the third person. That is, he could command one of his servants to "summon my liege, the Halfling." Or possibly say to Pippin , something like, "As my liege, you owe me loyalty."
He would not (except as noted in the particular instance in the story, as we have discussed) ever address Pippin as "my liege" .

The first two examples of my liege are used as descriptors (that is, they describe Pippin's relationship to Denethor), the direct address "my liege" is akin (in our time) to a lower ranking soldier (junior officer, or non-com) addressing a senior officer as "Sir".
A senior officer would not, under normal circumstances and in normal conversation ever address a junior officer (never mind a non-com) as Sir.
Junior officers are formally addressed by their rank or as "Mister"
( I imagine in ultra formal military settings, say, a court-martial, "Sir" might be used by everyone present, regardless of rank)
 
Last edited:
I added two more words today.

I've always wondered about Eomer's phrase, "...since men spoke with mouth." Did Tolkien invent that or is it part of some old saying? I searched a little but couldn't find it anywhere else. It seems like a very unusual turn of phrase to me.

career The Siege of Gondor: "The hosts of Morgul intent on their prey, taken at unawares in wild career, broke scattering like sparks in a gale.", [Definitions: speed in a course, encounter, charge.]

saw The Ride of the Rohirrim "’Need brooks no delay, yet late is better than never,’ said Eomer. ‘And mayhap in this time shall the old saw be proved truer than ever before since men spoke with mouth.’", [Definition: a saying which provides a general truth, fundamental principle, or rule of conduct.]
 
Three more words:

brigand The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor…King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul…”, [Definition: an outlaw who lives by highway robbery and plunder.]

scimitar The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "…the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars.”, [Definition: a saber having a curved blade with the edge on the convex side and used chiefly by Arabs and Turks. Etymology: a corruption of the Persian word shamshir.]

tang The Ride of the Rohirrim: "’Widfara is my name…the wind is turning…there is a sea-tang in it, faint though it be.’”, [Two meanings: a faint suggestion or trace, a pleasantly strong taste or smell.]


Italian Brigands Surprised by Papal Troops, painted by Horace Vernet.


Two styles of scimitars: an Egyptian shamshir (left) and an Ottoman kilij (right)
 
I added four more words.

burnished The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "…Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth…looked then on Eowyn…And he held the bright-burnished vambrace that was upon his arm before her cold lips, and behold! a little mist was laid on it hardly to be seen.”, [Definition: polished, made shiny or lustrous by rubbing.]

fire-bolt The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "Fewer were they [the Rohirrim] but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.”, [Meaning: a thunderbolt, a flash of lightning.]

leech The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "…Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth…looked then on Eowyn…’Men of Rohan!’ he cried. ‘Are there no leeches among you?’”, [Archaic definition: physician, surgeon.]

van The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "…out of the City came all the strength of men that was in it, and the silver swan of Dol Amroth was borne in the van, driving the enemy from the Gate.”, [Definition: vanguard, the troops at the head of an army during an action or movement.]
 
Today I'm adding three nautical terms I harvested from a single sentence.

Apparently, the Oxford English Dictionary includes 353 definitions for draught (British spelling of draft).

bellying The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "…they cried in dismay; for black against the glittering stream they beheld a fleet borne up on the wind: dromunds, and ships of great draught with many oars, and with black sails bellying in the breeze.”, [Definition: protruding, extending outward beyond a usual point (like a person’s belly).]

draught (2) The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "…they cried in dismay; for black against the glittering stream they beheld a fleet borne up on the wind: dromunds, and ships of great draught with many oars, and with black sails bellying in the breeze.”, [Definition: draft, the depth of water required to float a ship--especially when loaded.]

dromund The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "…they cried in dismay; for black against the glittering stream they beheld a fleet borne up on the wind: dromunds, and ships of great draught with many oars, and with black sails bellying in the breeze.”, [Dromond definition: a large medieval fast ship propelled primarily by oars but sometimes also by sails.]


A Viking vessel heading to the open sea with her sail bellying


Reconstruction (top) in 1:10 scale of a dromon's hull, at the Museum of Ancient Seafaring, Mainz
 
I added two more words:

blench The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "But wherever the mumakil came there the horses would not go, but blenched and swerved away…”, [Definition: to draw back or turn aside from a lack of courage.]

discomfit The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "The great wrath of his [Eomer’s] onset had utterly overthrown the front of his enemies, and great wedges of his Riders had passed clear through the ranks of the Southrons, discomfiting their horsemen and riding their footmen to ruin.”, [Definition: to frustrate the plans of, thwart.]
 
During the heat of battle Tolkien name drops the Variags of Khand but then tells us very little about them. Given the connection to real-world history I wonder if he intended (but never got around) to provide a fuller history for them in his tales.

Variags The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: "And now the fighting waxed furious on the fields of the Pelennor…Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.”, [Definition: synonym for Varangian: Viking conquerors, traders, and settlers mostly from present-day Sweden. The Varangian Guard was only used in battle during critical moments, or where the battle was most fierce.]


Depiction of the Varangian Guard in the 11th century chronicle of John Skylitzes

Additional comments:
  • Tolkien’s use of Variags seems unusual in that, in a work he published himself, it names a particular group from real-world history. Maybe, corsairs is the only other example? Let me know if I'm forgetting any others.
  • Variag has a connection to another word already on the list from The Fall of Gondolin: ‘The duties and purpose of the Varangian Guard were similar—if not identical—to the services provided by the Kievan druzhina, the Swedish/Norwegian hird, and the Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon housecarls.’

Previous entry:
house-carle The Fall of Gondolin, The Original Tale: “…Tuor shouted to the men about Earendel to stand and flee not, for the wolfriders were scattering them and slaying them piecemeal, and the child was upon the shoulders of one Hendor, a house-carle of Idril’s, and he seemed like to be left with his burden.”, [Meaning: A housecarl was a non-servile manservant or household bodyguard in medieval Northern Europe. The institution originated amongst the Norsemen of Scandinavia. They were well-trained and paid as fulltime soldiers.]
 
I added two words today.

I read some of the Orson Scott Card books containing the character Alvin Maker. However, it's been too long for me to remember if the archaic (poetic) meaning of maker could be applied to Alvin. Maybe he was just good at making things.

chamberlain The Pyre of Denethor: “Denethor…’I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart…’”, [Definition: a senior royal official in charge of managing a royal household.]

maker The Battle of the Pelennor Fields: “So long afterward a maker in Rohan said in his song of the Mounds of Mundburg: We heard of the horns in the hills ringing…”, [Archaic meaning: poet.]
 
Only one word for today...

I was surprised that longfather wasn’t in the usual dictionaries (Merriam-Webster and Oxford English). However, I did find references to it being used in other fantasy authors' works from 1982 to 2007. Maybe Tolkien invented the term, and it's catching on???

longfather The Pyre of Denethor: "’I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,’ answered Denethor, ‘and in the days of my longfathers before me…’”, also Appendix C: “The Longfather-Tree of Master Samwise”, [Meaning: male ancestors.] [Comment: The term is not in the dictionary but is present in works by other more-recent fantasy authors. Perhaps Tolkien originated the term??]
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Similar threads

Tom Bombadil...again
Replies
18
Views
346
wondering
W
Appreciating Christopher Gilson on Tolkien's 🧝Elvish
Replies
0
Views
716
Backyard Professor
The Eyes of Tolkien
2
Replies
38
Views
7K
Eljorahir
Who is the Most Sly Politician in Middle Earth?
Replies
6
Views
1K
Vardarianna
Was Tolkien a dog person or cat person?
Replies
11
Views
2K
Ent
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…