Tuor and Idril

[typhoonikan]

Beren and Luthien
Aragorn and Arwen
Tuor and Idril?

I thought it was forbidden for elves and men to love. Why isn't a big deal made of Tuor and Idril?

 

[Turgon]

I don't think marriage between elves and men was forbidden in any real sense. There were no laws from the maker saying this was not to be. In the cases you mention, the marriage of Beren and Luthien was forbidden by Thingol. Not by any law, but because he saw Beren as being beneath his daughter and not worthy of her love. With Aragorn and Arwen, again their love was not forbidden, though Elrond made Aragorn jump through hoops to gain his daughter's hand. I think though this was because Elrond saw what his daughter stood to lose - and he loved Aragorn enough to make sure he was worthy enough for such a sacrifice. With Tuor and Idril I think it was just a case of Turgon seeing Tuor as a worthy suitor to his daughter, Tuor's father had given his life so that Turgon and the armies of Gondolin could escape the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, and indeed his parting words to Turgon were that from the two of them '...a new star will rise.' Tuor himself came to Gondolin as a messenger from Ulmo, which again probably raised him even more in Turgon's eyes.

I think marriage between the two races was more of a bad idea than a forbidden one when all is said and done.

 

[typhoonikan]

I understand. Thank you so much. That clarifies.

Are there any other known loves between elf and man? If so, who?

 

[Elthir]

Andreth and Aegnor also fell in love, for example, and Finrod noted that:

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it.'

Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, Morgoth's Ring

 

[Poplartree]

Finduilas loved Turin, too, although she wasn't loved back.

 

[Turgon]

There is also a legend in Unfinished Tales of Imrazor the Numenorean, an ancestor of Imrahil, wedding Mithrellas one of Nimrodel's companions, which explains the 'elvish strain' Legolas sees in Imrahil. Mithrellas bears Imrazor two children, Galador and Gilmith, and after this leaves him, slipping away into the night. I quite like this story, and it maybe goes someway to explaining what happens when the two races come together without such a high destiny.

 

[Galentir]

If elves and men are different species (are they?) then they could not breed children. Same applies to men and dwarves interbreeding, but again - are they different species? And there were very few dwarf women anyway. But what about men/hobbit offsprng? Much more likely as hobbits were men.

 

[Confusticated]

IMO the only important difference between elves and men is that elves' spirits are bound to the world, and are in perfect harmony with their bodies. Men are just passing through.
Other differences are a consequence of this.

The races can breed; they did breed.

 

[Bucky]

If elves and men are different species (are they?) then they could not breed children.

I guess that's why you find the books in the FANTASY section at the bookstore.

Seriously, The Two Kindreds are called 'The Children of Illuvator' so I guess there is your out.
Dwarves, on the other hand, were crafted by Aule.

 

[Poplartree]

Well, different species means « no fertile offspring » = you can breed a donkey and a horse, but don't expect grandkids !

However, different races can have a fertile offspring = you can breed a Siamese and a Persian cat, and create a new feline race with pretty pedigree family-trees !
Tolkien being quite a scholar when it comes to words and their meaning, I don't think he called elves, men etc « races » rather than « species » by chance.

And this way, we can always dream of finding somewhere a Homo sapiens sapiens ethny that looks and behaves like the Elves do Though they would more likely be CGI than flesh and blood

 

[Galentir]

Yes and I didn't want to be pedantic about it. Interesting point though about races and species. I would have thought that the various types of men were different races and that men, elves, and dwarves were not biologically related races but different species. I'm way off topic so had better leave it

 

[aragil]

FWIW, Tolkien specifically states in Letters that Elves and Men are the same species, precisely because they can interbreed:

From Letter 153, to Peter Hastings:

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.

 

[Bucky]

Good for Tolkien!

That answer (It's MY creation and I'll do what I want) should shut up all the people looking to dot every i and cross every t.

 

[Galentir]

So Bucky doesn't think that we should discuss issues that are unclear to lesser mortals like me? Not much point having a forum if you just want to "shut up all the people"

 

[Confusticated]

Who cares what he thinks if that is his attitude to new members. I'm sure the number of members who feel differently would overwhelm his voice if we all spoke up.

I believe elf biology is different than men, rather than M-e biology different from our own. JRRT leaves many questions open for speculation, and a lot of members enjoy doing so.

 

[Galentir]

Thanks Nom

 

[Bucky]

So Bucky doesn't think that we should discuss issues that are unclear to lesser mortals like me? Not much point having a forum if you just want to "shut up all the people"

No, I just gave you my opinion.
Lesser mortals like me are still allowed that - for a few more years at least.

 

[Starflower]

I've always held the opinion that the main reason behind the 'ban' between Elf-Man relationships was simply the inevitable heartbreak that would follow such a liaison. Elves are immortal after all, so it cannot be an equal relationship on any plane when one can live 70,000 years and the other 70. Thus all the documented liaisons end in misery to someone involved, I would imagine they would serve as warning examples to future generations.

 

[Confusticated]

Finduilas loved Turin, too, although she wasn't loved back.

I'm sorry but thats what she gets for what she did to Gwindor... you would think she'd have loved him more than ever when he returned to her beyond all hope (miraculous I would say) she just gave up on him I guess! Turin proved unworthy anyhow. Maybe her and Gwindor were reunited after some healing time in Mandos?