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Was it Pippin's folly that brought about 🧙Gandalf's end in Moria?
- Thread starter Iarwain Ben-edar
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D
Deleted member 12094
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Speculation abounds regarding a potential relation between Pippin's stone and the enemy's alertness to the passage of the Fellowship. I read some strong opinions on this before.
Beware: the movies don't help here (just to put it mildly!). I personally did not note any suggestion of such a causal effect in the LotR books.
In reality, there’s ever again a rock or stone getting loose once in a while, and tumbling down, in large caves.
The Fellowship's passage through Moria was noticed eventually, be it by Pippin's stone, or by Gandalf's conspicuous light, or by the Fellowship's footfall (and other noises) produced several days over a long distance in an otherwise tomblike environmental silence. Maybe, even Gollum's movements who started following the Fellowship were eventually noticed.
Without evidence, no further comment from my side! But I think you made a valid reflection nonetheless.
Beware: the movies don't help here (just to put it mildly!). I personally did not note any suggestion of such a causal effect in the LotR books.
In reality, there’s ever again a rock or stone getting loose once in a while, and tumbling down, in large caves.
The Fellowship's passage through Moria was noticed eventually, be it by Pippin's stone, or by Gandalf's conspicuous light, or by the Fellowship's footfall (and other noises) produced several days over a long distance in an otherwise tomblike environmental silence. Maybe, even Gollum's movements who started following the Fellowship were eventually noticed.
Without evidence, no further comment from my side! But I think you made a valid reflection nonetheless.
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Well:
'It may have nothing to do with Peregrin's foolish stone, but probably something has been disturbed that had better been left quiet.' (emphasis mine).
But I'm just funnin' with ya!
(More) seriously though, this is one of the many ambiguities in a work filled with them, which has the effect of making us feel constantly on the edge of peeping into a larger, mostly unknown world, of which we catch only glimpses in the story; think of the "nameless things" that "gnaw the world" in Moria, spoken of by Gandalf, or the "other things" haunting dark corners of the goblin caves in The Hobbit. A lesser writer* would have given in to a natural temptation to show us everything; Tolkien's deliberate reticence demonstrates how a great one does it.
*Or, need I say, a lesser filmmaker?
'It may have nothing to do with Peregrin's foolish stone, but probably something has been disturbed that had better been left quiet.' (emphasis mine).
But I'm just funnin' with ya!
(More) seriously though, this is one of the many ambiguities in a work filled with them, which has the effect of making us feel constantly on the edge of peeping into a larger, mostly unknown world, of which we catch only glimpses in the story; think of the "nameless things" that "gnaw the world" in Moria, spoken of by Gandalf, or the "other things" haunting dark corners of the goblin caves in The Hobbit. A lesser writer* would have given in to a natural temptation to show us everything; Tolkien's deliberate reticence demonstrates how a great one does it.
*Or, need I say, a lesser filmmaker?
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True. "Filmmaker" was an afterthought, when the "nameless things" brought sandworms to mind.
For some reason.
For some reason.
D
Deleted member 12094
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Dear SES, if you mean really really big sandworms, then you were quite well served by our favorite filmmaker indeed, weren't you...?
I'm afraid he might have confused JRRT with Frank Herbert as well as TH with Dune but never mind: 3 full movies needed filling up so why not borrowing some more content elsewhere!?
PS - if not into SF fantasy: I was just referring to this old classical one.
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Don't forget "meet cute" romcoms.
Addendum:
I'm flabbergasted at how many of these I found.
On second thought -- not really.
Last edited:
Alcuin
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Jackson and his producers were never telling Tolkien’s stories in their films. They told their own using Tolkien’s characters and settings.
─◊─
The hammer tapping following the stone-fall was recognized by both Gimli and Gandalf. The narrator suggestively describes them:
At some point, the denizens of Moria discovered the passage of the Fellowship of the Ring. Whether they first became aware of them following Pippin’s misadventure with the stone is the only question: they were quite aware of them when they attacked them in the Chamber of Mazarbul! So the only question is when did the “locals” become aware of the intruders? It certainly sounds as if their awareness began with the sound of the falling stone. That might have occasioned nothing other than a message of be alert, be watchful for intruders, while the actual discovery of the Company might not take place until they were in the great hall outside the Chamber of Mazarbul. Additionally, Gollum had been sneaking about Moria for many weeks, maybe months, and might have put the orcs on the trail of Frodo and his companions, even accidentally: It’s not as if Gollum, who wanted the Ring, gained any advantage in setting the local orcs onto the Ringbearer – provided he had discovered Frodo was the Ringbearer.
But there is more going on here than merely the passage of a random company of adventurers through Moria. For many years (decades, in fact) I believed the attack on the Company of the Ring was nothing more than the locals, including the Balrog, against intruders. It was much more than that: Tolkien explicitly describes it as “a trap.” Many of you are familiar with Letter 139 to Milton Waldman in Letters of JRR Tolkien; the rest of the letter is published in Reader’s Companion. There Tolkien writes
Sauron was certainly aware of the Balrog! Orcs had entered Moria from Dol Guldur around the year 2480, according to Appendix B. They could not do this without encountering the Balrog, and unless the Balrog killed them all, they would report this back to Sauron in Dol Guldur. Gandalf believed Sauron intended to use Smaug to ravage Rivendell; it is likely he intended to use the Balrog in a similar fashion against Lórien, as Celeborn’s initial condemnation of Gimli reveals the Elf-lord suspected. And, I think, there can be little doubt that Saruman, whose orcs also had contact with Moria, was also aware of the Balrog: Tolkien’s notes cited in Reader’s Companion (for the chapter “Departure of Boromir”) indicate that Saruman was informed of the events in Moria by orc-runners only 4 days afterwards. (As far as I can remember or discover by brief perusal, there is nothing bearing on this in Treason of Isengard.)
But if Sauron deliberately herded his precious Ring into Moria, how could he make certain the Balrog would not discover and seize it? Was the Balrog, another Maia (specifically an Umaia, or fallen Maia), not capable of displacing Sauron if it took possession of the Ring? or perhaps Sauron believed it would not take his Precious? (What became of the Ring if the Balrog found it is a long-standing matter of debate: see “What would the Balrog have done if the ring had fallen into his hands”.)
─◊─
The hammer tapping following the stone-fall was recognized by both Gimli and Gandalf. The narrator suggestively describes them:
At some point, the denizens of Moria discovered the passage of the Fellowship of the Ring. Whether they first became aware of them following Pippin’s misadventure with the stone is the only question: they were quite aware of them when they attacked them in the Chamber of Mazarbul! So the only question is when did the “locals” become aware of the intruders? It certainly sounds as if their awareness began with the sound of the falling stone. That might have occasioned nothing other than a message of be alert, be watchful for intruders, while the actual discovery of the Company might not take place until they were in the great hall outside the Chamber of Mazarbul. Additionally, Gollum had been sneaking about Moria for many weeks, maybe months, and might have put the orcs on the trail of Frodo and his companions, even accidentally: It’s not as if Gollum, who wanted the Ring, gained any advantage in setting the local orcs onto the Ringbearer – provided he had discovered Frodo was the Ringbearer.
But there is more going on here than merely the passage of a random company of adventurers through Moria. For many years (decades, in fact) I believed the attack on the Company of the Ring was nothing more than the locals, including the Balrog, against intruders. It was much more than that: Tolkien explicitly describes it as “a trap.” Many of you are familiar with Letter 139 to Milton Waldman in Letters of JRR Tolkien; the rest of the letter is published in Reader’s Companion. There Tolkien writes
Whose trap? Sauron’s? Saruman’s? surely the Balrog’s trap, in that he had the Company backed against narrow Durin’s Bridge. And who was responsible for driving them into Moria? Gandalf calls the leader of the wolves that attacked them in Hollin “Hound of Sauron.” Sauron is indeed closely associated with werewolves, and no bodies were found the following morning, only arrows and the remains of burnt arrows. This surely indicates the influence of Sauron. And the events in the Redhorn Pass: are they the malice of Caradhras, as Gimli believes, of Saruman (as depicted by Peter Jackson in his film), or of Sauron, whose “arm has grown long,” according to Gandalf himself, perhaps revealing a suspicion on Gandalf’s part that Sauron has intervened in both the appearance of the wargs/werewolves and the storm in the pass.
Sauron was certainly aware of the Balrog! Orcs had entered Moria from Dol Guldur around the year 2480, according to Appendix B. They could not do this without encountering the Balrog, and unless the Balrog killed them all, they would report this back to Sauron in Dol Guldur. Gandalf believed Sauron intended to use Smaug to ravage Rivendell; it is likely he intended to use the Balrog in a similar fashion against Lórien, as Celeborn’s initial condemnation of Gimli reveals the Elf-lord suspected. And, I think, there can be little doubt that Saruman, whose orcs also had contact with Moria, was also aware of the Balrog: Tolkien’s notes cited in Reader’s Companion (for the chapter “Departure of Boromir”) indicate that Saruman was informed of the events in Moria by orc-runners only 4 days afterwards. (As far as I can remember or discover by brief perusal, there is nothing bearing on this in Treason of Isengard.)
But if Sauron deliberately herded his precious Ring into Moria, how could he make certain the Balrog would not discover and seize it? Was the Balrog, another Maia (specifically an Umaia, or fallen Maia), not capable of displacing Sauron if it took possession of the Ring? or perhaps Sauron believed it would not take his Precious? (What became of the Ring if the Balrog found it is a long-standing matter of debate: see “What would the Balrog have done if the ring had fallen into his hands”.)
At the risk of getting booed down for stating the obvious: Pippin certainly didn’t wake the Balrog with his stone-throw (in the book). That was the Dwarves' digging too deep under Caradhras for Mithril, for which Appendix B in RoTK states for entry 1980 of the Second Age: “… A Balrog appears in Moria …”. Just a bit of a millennium earlier.
Another point is the ability of Sauron to control this Balrog (or for that matter Smaug) in his endeavors at world rule. Yes, Gandalf does state (in UT, “The Quest of Erebor”) “The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect.” But a) as shown often in LoTR Gandalf can be wrong, and b) to my mind JRRT contradicts this with a statement (I’m certain in “Letters”, but finding the appropriate quote there can be a bit laborious) to the effect that “cannot people imagine evil beings that are not in league with the devil?” (very much a paraphrase).
And then there is Aragorn’s statement to Gandalf in “A Journey in the Dark”: “You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame. I will follow your lead now – if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!”
One of those prophetic sayings in the mythology that comes true.
Another point is the ability of Sauron to control this Balrog (or for that matter Smaug) in his endeavors at world rule. Yes, Gandalf does state (in UT, “The Quest of Erebor”) “The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect.” But a) as shown often in LoTR Gandalf can be wrong, and b) to my mind JRRT contradicts this with a statement (I’m certain in “Letters”, but finding the appropriate quote there can be a bit laborious) to the effect that “cannot people imagine evil beings that are not in league with the devil?” (very much a paraphrase).
And then there is Aragorn’s statement to Gandalf in “A Journey in the Dark”: “You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame. I will follow your lead now – if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!”
One of those prophetic sayings in the mythology that comes true.
Aldarion
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@Olorgando Nobody suggested that Pippin woke the Balrog, I think. In fact, I do not think even Dwarves did it: it is indicated somewhere (UT or Silm) that Dwarves released Balrog into Moria, but that Balrog had been woken by Sauron's return.
Sauron does not need to control either Balrog or Smaug to "use" them, he merely needs to be aware of them and their agencies.
Sauron does not need to control either Balrog or Smaug to "use" them, he merely needs to be aware of them and their agencies.
Not explicitly, you're entirely right there. But I have become a bit sensitive (perhaps overly so) to Implicit, but unstated assumptions.
Perhaps one thing illustrates my aversion to over-explicitness (something that JRRT avoided very much, leaving things hinted at on the edges of the story):
We do not know what caused the snow-storm which left, according to Legolas after his reconnoiter over the snow up Caradhras (in the book), “… a little wreath (!) of snow on this Redhorn hillock (!)”. PJ in his film has Saruman standing on the top of Orthanc as being the explicit source of the snowfall. This Hollywood - and conspiracy lunatics’ – desperate need for everything to have a reason where there might very well be none.
Alcuin
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That’s a good paraphrase! The citation is indeed from Letters 175, discussing Old Man Willow:
I don’t think Sauron would “control” or hope to “control” Smaug. Neither Smaug nor the Balrog were his chattels, nor would they (I imagine) respond well to any peremptory commands or demands by Sauron. However, common enemies – in this case, the Eldar, particularly Elrond and Galadriel and their allies – make allies even of good folk (e.g., the Last Alliance of Elves and Men against Sauron and his minions), much less of evil folk who hope to profit from it: Smaug could ravage and pillage Rivendell, with Sauron’s assistance; and the Balrog ravage and pillage Lórien, again with Sauron’s assistance. Smaug’s motivation is all too clear: He was a greedy, rapacious dragon who revelled in destruction. The Balrog’s is perhaps less distinct to us, but I think it was hiding, at first from the Host of Valinor at the end of the War of Wrath, then from anyone else who might discover it and reveal its presence (like those pesky Dwarves) to the Valar or their emissaries just in case they returned. If the Balrog could wipe out the Elves of Lórien, all the better for it, with the added bonus of killing the Noldo Galadriel. Sauron’s orcs, trolls, and – in the case of the three attacks on Lórien during the War of the Ring – a spare Nazgûl or two, would do all the heavy lifting anyway. All the dragon or Balrog would need do is storm into the fray at a moment the (Elvish) enemy wavered and break the lines; afterwards, the spoils of the battle would belong to the victor. (It isn’t as if the orcs that did the bulk of the fighting (and dying) at Nargothrond enjoyed any of the magnificent booty from the place: Glaurung gathered all that was accessible for his bed; the orcs got the survivors as slaves and prey.)
I concur. Control is not necessary. Influence and alliance between the wicked is all this is required here. Sauron had no fear of either the dragon or the Balrog, and they could prove most useful allies in war, as Gandalf indicated in the case of Smaug. Sauron’s forces did launch three attacks against Lórien, attacks which were unsuccessful without Sauron’s actual presence to break Galadriel’s defenses; but had the Balrog, a fallen Maia, been there, perhaps they would have been successful. Sauron did not attack Rivendell; but after the War, Gandalf mused that without Bilbo and Thorin & Co, Sauron would have used Smaug to attack, ravage, and destroy Rivendell. I think that was a good deduction; besides, Tolkien seemed to think so, too.
The reference to the Balrog’s being “released from prison … already awakened … by the malice of Sauron,” is a footnote to Appendix A, “Durin’s Folk”.
Alcuin
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Not this Alcuin, no. Why, is Elthir also a loquacious pedant?
To quote an ex-president (of the US): "define …"
Your post here is fairly "harmless". In another thread, you laid down a broadside of quotes that just had my jaw dropping very far. I mean, I have a serious JRRT library, but I would need the odd hour to retrieve the quotes (probably a single one, if obscure) from the books (and find out in which books to look in the first place). For example, I probably haven't read the two "Book of Lost Tales" volumes in like 30 years (they are the most confusing parts of HoMe to me) - and I'm also very spotty on "Lays". On one of the other sites, we have (so it seems) a member who is fluent in both Quenya and Sindarin. More to the point, I wouldn't be able to follow his philological jargon if he were talking about English or German!
Your post here is fairly "harmless". In another thread, you laid down a broadside of quotes that just had my jaw dropping very far. I mean, I have a serious JRRT library, but I would need the odd hour to retrieve the quotes (probably a single one, if obscure) from the books (and find out in which books to look in the first place). For example, I probably haven't read the two "Book of Lost Tales" volumes in like 30 years (they are the most confusing parts of HoMe to me) - and I'm also very spotty on "Lays". On one of the other sites, we have (so it seems) a member who is fluent in both Quenya and Sindarin. More to the point, I wouldn't be able to follow his philological jargon if he were talking about English or German!
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