What are you writing about now?

david_wendelken said:

Reframe it like this: What they are telling you is what they like and what would help them like it even more. If a writer's group member can give you specifics (as opposed to "I like it") about what they like and don't like, it means your work gripped them enough to PAY ATTENTION to it. It's incredibly easy to just zone out of a piece of writing that doesn't engage you.

I had a sentence describing what was happening after the Noldor sacked Alqualonde and were disposing of the corpses on board the ships they were stealing.

"They threw the dead off like sacks of turnips."

Maybe you've never had to toss 50lb bags of produce around, but they land with a very appropriate, bounceless thud. The comment was it that it pulled them out of the scene. Probably because they don't know what a sack of turnips thuds like.

It now reads:

"The dead crew were being tossed overboard. Their limp bodies thudded onto the dock or plunged into the harbour — some disappearing with a single splash, others rising again to bob in the harbour’s waves, spreading darkening threads of blood about them."

I think it's an improvement. (Opinions may differ. )

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I agree, this assessment would be very helpful. And thank you for including the example. I have tossed a few heavy things in my life, but never sacks of turnips. Now I know what to expect! 😆

I'll try to think of the critique as you suggested. That should prove very useful :]

WatcherWraith said:

But I still have some amount of pride to struggle against :']

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ah, pride. one of the great banes of humankind. we all fight it.
and yet, the truly great one at any thing, is the one who comes to admit they must admit - and to know they do not know,

greatness is in recognizing how to achieve excellence, not in delivering excellence all on our own.
only the fool ignores available resources when entering into battle - on any battlefield.
and does any endeavor exist as other than a battlefield engagement?
two terms of strategy apply: 'the high ground' and 'the good ground.'
we seek them out, and once found, it is there we work to execute all our skirmishes.

WatcherWraith said:

having someone tell me all the things wrong with my work

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yet one caution to suggest.
if someone is really 'telling us all the things wrong,' this is not one helping us to excel. it is a 'self-serving' source. drop it and move on.
we seek the one(s) truly helping us to see different ways of expression, with a view to OUR improvement.

too, the sense they are 'telling us all the things wrong' may be our interpretation of their intent, (pride goeth before the fall.)
so we must look within, and overcome 'the dark side' - the discord sown by Melkor.
and this must be done before we can rightly assess what the one telling us something's intent really is.

to apply an old adage, "at the end of the day," the extent to which we address this issue reveals the extent to which writing is truly a focus of significant, serious intent within us, for our future.


May we not let our self get in the way of ourselves.

david_wendelken said:

my in-person writer's group

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@WatcherWraith - just as a note, my son found his writer's group to be very useful in helping him along with his writing.

Those dedicated enough to seek out and join a writer's group are normally people who are dedicated to the craft of writing, and to both self- and other- improvement.
The obnoxious critics - those who don't know how to use words in a way that builds up and is suggestive, rather than tears down and is inflammatory, do not usually last long in writer's groups.

I recommend them for all serious writers, personally.

david_wendelken said:

Opinions may differ.

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WHAT ???
Opinion is involved in the craft of writing, too???
Oh sir David - how right you are..!
Another great thing to keep in mind for all.
And a keynote to keep in mind, as we receive input from other sources - including our editors.
We are receiving OPINION. Thus we need to engage our proper Thinking processes, evaluate, and come to proper perceptions, perspectives, and ultimately conclusions.

Any suggestion is subject to examination. All suggestions are steps toward growth and improvement, whether accepted as made, as altered, or rejected (with sound reasoning.)

I'll shut up now.

Ran the change by a helpful friend, who pointed out that bodies don't float (until they decompose). So I altered the paragraph as so:

"The dead crew were being tossed overboard. Their limp bodies thudded onto the dock or plunged into the harbour — some disappearing with a single splash, others bobbing in the shallows on the harbour’s shore, spreading darkening threads of blood about them."

Oh, I'm up to chapter 5 of 51 in my editing of Volume 1. Plus there are 7 appendices, but they won't take long to finish and edit.

Now editing chapter 13 of 51. It's a bigger one than some of the others, and also needs more work. Will probably take the rest of the evening and part of the morning.

I have several stages of editing to go through.

Stage 1: I cleaned up spelling and grammar mistakes. Probably better to do that later in the process, but my brain was too fried for the other tasks.
Stage 2: Fixing verb tenses (When writing creatively at speed, I stagger from present to past tense like a sailor going back to his ship after his first shore leave in a year. Fixing adverbs, unclear or awkward phrases, passive verbs, repeated sentence starts, emotion tells and similar text weaknesses. Again, it would be better to do this later in the process, but my brain is still tired.
Stage 3: I started this and I'll pursue it a bit at a time over the next couple of weeks. I'm making a list of each scene in the book. The list contains a quality-control checklist for each scene. My feeling is, if I can't fill out the QC checklist for the scene, it's probably a flawed scene design. This will also help me see the story in a nutshell to examine it for plot holes, missing stuff, extraneous stuff, etc. It would be best to do this first, before my current first two stages.
Stage 4: Make the corrections to the scenes and note which scenes were altered.
Stage 5: Go through the text and look for ways to make the wording POP off the page, and note which scenes were altered. I'm re-reading The Elements of Eloquence by Forsyth, which is a truly excellent book for the purpose. Plus, it's a great read!
Stage 6: Re-do stages 1 and 2 on all the altered scenes. You can see why it would be less work to do it later, but I have to work within my limitations.

david_wendelken said:

Now editing chapter 13 of 51. It's a bigger one than some of the others, and also needs more work. Will probably take the rest of the evening and part of the morning.

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Just have to fix the "telling instead of showing" issues and the verb tenses, and chapter 13 will be done. Should take 1 to 4 hours tomorrow. It's over 4100 words and had a lot of technical issues to fix. Some days you write cleaner than others...

Just don't forget to give your brain breaks. Over-taxation can hurt your story as much as any editing errors.

WatcherWraith said:

Just don't forget to give your brain breaks. Over-taxation can hurt your story as much as any editing errors.

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A very wise point! Stages 1 and 2 aren't really creatively taxing. While they aren't pure mechanical tasks, they are kind of like that. I would rather push thru all this boring work, rest a bit, then focus on the creativity part without being distracted by grammar and technical wordsmithing issues. Plus, when I do the creative work, I'll be more likely to get my "perfect turn of phrase" in the right verb tense from the get-go.

@WatcherWraith - a wise point indeed.

Sir @david_wendelken, not that I'm of any quality to instruct such a diligent worker, but I would, from my personal view, add this to the Wraith's comment.

"Over-immersion brings its own blindness." When we remain 'too close to a thing' for too long a period of time, we can liken it to road signs on the roads we drive daily. We no longer see them. The old adage "familiarity breeds contempt" is well altered to "familiarity breeds blindness" - perhaps another form of 'contempt' into the bargain.

As an example, I'll refer again to an incident I may have mentioned some time ago some place else here, with another author whose work I was editing.
He crafted his scenes exceptionally well, and clearly.
Yet because he did not 'step back,' disengage for a time, then re-read in one area, he overlooked something quite obvious to a 'new reader.'

He had written of a certain character rummaging around for an item in the large central tent canopy, where stored goods were being kept. This character suddenly 'returned to the tent.' Yet the author had not indicated when that character had 'left the tent' to begin with. We knew the "why" - what he had been observing motivating him to go - but not the when, or the how. He was 'returning to the tent' while, from the reader's perspective, he was still in it. (The 'when' would be what we receive if we use a 'declarative statement' like 'he left the tent.' The 'how' covering both, in a 'show not declare' manner, such as 'he turned, stumbling over a box as he left the tent to aid the woman.') Either declarative or 'show' would have worked, but 'show' would have enhanced the scene's intensity significantly, not only for the scene itself, but as an expression of the character's feelings about the matter at hand.

There are many such incidents I could cite.

I assume your "steps 1 through 6" above speak to the 'immediate task of editing at hand' - for which they are splendid - but likely do not preclude your 'detachment' and 'return at a later date' once again (or more) with refreshed eyes and mental state, to 'see the work as a new reader would.'

You allude to it here:

david_wendelken said:

rest a bit,

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My personal recommendation is to allow that "rest" to be a complete detachment from that work for a fair period of time, grovelling in something else entirely for awhile, before returning.

However, every writer is different, some more elastic than others. This is what it takes me at times, to 'get into new eyes' - even as an editor of others' work(s). (And it's imperative I keep separated from the work at all times - both the writer's, and my own editing, to be sure I'm not 'writing the writer out' and 'writing the editor in.' A mistake many editors often make.)

I'll shut up again now.

I agree completely! I just want to get this big glop of technical grammar slog out of the way first. Then I have some fun book-binding to do and some figure drawing, and Christmas presents to make. THEN back to finish editing.

Went to a protest march, watched the Escape the Plot Forest writing conference sessions for today afterwards, AND finished the the technical editing of 18 out of 51 chapters. Woot!

Great conference, loads of good info. It's free.

Well, I'm on chapter 22 of 51. Stage 1 and 2 edits completed for chapters 1-21. (Stages explained a few posts prior to this.)

Body and spirit are tired and I'm at the point of diminishing returns. I had hoped I could power through Stage 1 and 2, but it's time for a break.

Time to go do some art or learn some new and fun skills.

Mission Accomplished. Burnout avoided.

Yesterday I slammed out about 2,800 words in Ill Chances and Strange Fates (my main Silmarillion fanfic, for those who may not be aware. It's in the Red Book forum if anyone wants to read it!)

The part I'm in deals with some kind of heavy topics, as it deals primarily with a highly toxic and borderline abusive person. I don't take such matters lightly, and as I shared with my friends yesterday, I'm a bit nervous to share this leg of the story, but it is a necessary part of it. My friends were a great encouragement to me and inspired me to put some of my fears aside for whenever I finally publish these chapters, because they trust me to not glorify the issue and to treat it with the severity it deserves. And justice will be served to the evildoer in the end.

First draft of a trigger warning to be placed near the front of the book.

"Unlike The Hobbit, Bilbo’s grand adventure, these are not tales written by a gentleman hobbit with an eye for entertaining the neighbour’s children.

Unlike The Lord of the Rings, this is not written by Frodo, a world-weary gentleman, as a record of the hobbit’s role in the War of the Ring, so gentle hobbits would know they may stand as equals among the Free Peoples.



There are moments of horror within, ungentled by a hobbit’s pen.



These tales are of elves and their mortal friends, often in their own words, about warring in the shadows instead of in serried ranks of bright-mailed soldiers. It is about the gritty details of a world careening towards evil and those who choose to act.

And the consequences."

I heard once the world of Middle-earth and its stories were defined by two things: 1. the presence of people who did what they could against evil, despite knowing or thinking their efforts might be fruitless, and 2. there was always hope.

I may be wrong in my conclusions, but I think a lot of people love Middle-earth because, unlike many modern fantasies, it shows us a world where beauty and goodness are what is striven for, where the evil is overthrown by the efforts of good people, and where a certain ultimate doom is placed on the downfall of evil itself.

Your story may contain these elements; you would know better than any of us. If it does, your readers will recognize the world you're writing about. If it does not, your readers may wonder exactly what type of Middle-earth they're looking at.

That is my opinion, at any rate. It is meant as a suggestion, or a caution, not as a rule or guide. Do as you will with it.

WatcherWraith said:

I heard once the world of Middle-earth and its stories were defined by two things: 1. the presence of people who did what they could against evil, despite knowing or thinking their efforts might be fruitless, and 2. there was always hope.

I may be wrong in my conclusions, but I think a lot of people love Middle-earth because, unlike many modern fantasies, it shows us a world where beauty and goodness are what is striven for, where the evil is overthrown by the efforts of good people, and where a certain ultimate doom is placed on the downfall of evil itself.

Your story may contain these elements; you would know better than any of us. If it does, your readers will recognize the world you're writing about. If it does not, your readers may wonder exactly what type of Middle-earth they're looking at.

That is my opinion, at any rate. It is meant as a suggestion, or a caution, not as a rule or guide. Do as you will with it.

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As our heroine expressed herself:

"We must do our best and hope."

"I have learned a lesson for life in this darksome cell. Hope is not pretty. Hope is not delicate. Hope gets gut-punched, battered in the heart, shrugs it off and fights on."

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