What do you think of 🧝Luthien's actions in The Silmarillion?

[adpirtle]

Hello, everyone. I just joined this forum and I'd love to get your opinions on something. I just finished reading the Silmarillion for the second time, but the first time was ages ago, and I really didn't remember much of the details, which was awesome in a way because it was all new all over again. :*)

Ok, so I was just loving this book, both the amazing creativity and the pseudo-archaic structure which really helped me get lost in the whole world painted by Tolkien. I totally bought into it, which I think was why I was so jarred when I came to the chapter on Beren and Luthien. :*eek:

The way the story's played out seems so unlike the rest of the book, and most of what does my head in is the fairy tale nature of Luthien. The whole chapter seems more fairy-tale-like than the rest of the book, but Luthien is in a class by herself. As a half-maia, I'm sure she's supposed to have magical powers greater than the elves, but she's tossing them out all over the shop (unlike other actual maiar who call themselves wizards, I might add). :*(

The whole thing with growing her hair long to escape the tree/tower, and turning into a vampire (?) and flying about...the way she shuts down Sauron and puts the whole of Melkor's palace to sleep with a song...It was just way beyond suspension of disbelief (side note, if Finrod and the other elf lords can throw down songs of power, why don't they ever do that on the battlefield?).

Anyway, the whole thing seems like its of a completely different character than the rest of the book. Am I the only one thinking this? Am I just completely off base? Has my brain simply been turned to jelly by reading too many names in too short a time?

 

[camlost]

Indeed Luthien seemed to have powers that were quite extraordinary. Being half-maia, as you mentioned, probably didn't hurt. The hair-escape is straight from a classic fairy-tale (Rapunzel), but she didn't "turn" into a vampire -- she devised costumes as it were to disguise herself and Beren.

As for her feat in Morgoth's throne-room. I think surprise was her greatest advantage. Imagine you are sitting in your impenetrable fortress (we all have one, right?) and in walks a beautiful elf-maiden. You are likely to be stunned and slow to react and, therefore, vulnerable. This gives her time to weave her spell. If they were expecting her, none of this would have been possible, I think.

 

[Thorin]

Hello ad! Welcome to the forum.

I think we must understand that from the 1st Age to the 4th age, things and the power associated with those things deteriorate. The blood of the Numenoreans is a prime example.

When we consider that Luthien's mother is a full Maiar, we have to realize that her daughter Luthien would have much of her power whereas her great-great grandson Elrond would be far more diluted.

I believe power, nobility and magic was much stronger in the 1st Age in Elves and Men than in later years.

We can probably attribute Luthien's magical properties due to this.

 

[adpirtle]

Thanks for your replies. I can understand how she's supposed to be powerful having a powerful mother. Its just that the tone of the chapter seems so much more completely fantastic (in an obviously magical way) than the rest of the book, which treats magic more subtly. It did feel like a completely different story. I guess that's inevitable considering the various parts of the Silmarillion were written over many decades.

 

[Alcuin]

I ran across this earlier today from Tolkien’s Letter 155, in which he discusses magic in his world. One of the things of which he reminds Naomi Mitchison, to whom the letter is addressed, is Galadriel’s gentle admonition of Sam, that Mortals confuse the Elves’ skills, arts, and inherent abilities with the deceits of Sauron. But the letter ends with this,

[noparse][[/noparse]A[noparse]][/noparse] difference in the use of “magic” in this story is that it is not to be come by by “lore” or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn’s “healing” might be regarded as “magical” … A[noparse][[/noparse]ragorn[noparse]][/noparse] is not a pure “Man”, but at long remove one of the “children of Lúthien”.

(Now beside this passage Tolkien wrote a note questioning whether “the Númenóreans used ‘spells’ in making swords?” That’s probably a reference to the barrow-blades, one of which Merry used to break the necromantic “spell that knit [noparse][[/noparse]the Witch-king’s[noparse]][/noparse] unseen sinews to his will.”)

 

[Thorin]

Yes Alcuin,

It's not like Elves have some sort of magic powers that they invoke from some demon or anything. Working in a Christian school you get much ignorance regarding those things in LoTR. I was defending LoTR from some parents who said that it promotes 'magic', comparing it to Harry Potter.

I said that the beings that do 'magic' are either angelic beings (Maia) given that power by Eru (the wizards) or Elves of which such mystical powers were part of their creative makeup by Eru again.

That usually stopped them in their tracks. :*)

 

[Tsagadar]

I totally agree about the tale of Beren and Luthien being much more fantastic than the rest. You might also notice the extensive use of songs in it. I think there's more singing in this chapter than there's in the rest of them together, including a quote from a song about a song (Felagund vs. Sauron). I suppose that the power of fate was the strongest magic here. For a bit of statistics - the word "fate" is mentioned in the chapter 14 times out of the 47 times it appears in the Sil. And "doom" 20 times...
I also think there's a strong equivalence between it and the tale of Earendil and Elwing. In both stories we have a couple where the guy tries to go by himself and the girl persists, and they end up sharing the same fate. In both we have a climax with someone reaching Valinor and talking about the grief and sorrow of both races. In both they take a rather hopeless road and succeed somehow. In both we get special cases of magic - in the later story there's the part where Elwing turns into a sea bird, which is quite crazy for Tolkien. Something strange that I didn't get the full meaning of (aside from connecting the stories) is the mention of dust in both: "they came with the dust of their long and weary road upon them to the drear dale that lay before the Gate of Angband" and "He walked in the deserted ways of Tirion, and the dust upon his raiment and his shoes was a dust of diamonds, and he shone and glistened as he climbed the long white stairs." - Actually I would be grateful if someone can attach a good meaning to it here.

I think the story comes mainly to give hope in a time of darkness, and so maybe the style of it comes to serve this purpose. It might also derive from it being probably based on the Lay of Leithian as a source and therefor has a more poetic feel to it.

 

[Prince of Cats]

To me, Beren and Luthien are to the Silmarillion as Tom Bombadil and Lady Goldberry are to The Lord of the Rings. Beorn to the Hobbit! Personally, I read the books because I want to read their stories. As for it not fitting the flavor of the rest of the works ... I'm not that well versed on the publishing of the Sil. but do we know Tolkien would have put it there as it is (maybe, he like ol Tom & the River Daughter )? I consider the grave; Beren as Tolkien, his Queen is Luthien. Is this his most heartfelt work? Love is indeed magical, right? ;*) It's a template for my own dreams of romance

Have you read Tolkien's "On Fairy-Stories" adpirtle?

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

what Trailer?
:*confused:

 

[Peeping-Tom]

Erestor...

williamsxxxx is one of those spamming Link-Troll bots!!! :*mad:

They have started to pretend to participate in whatever thread they invade... obviously, not pretending well enough, yet...:*p

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

put him in the sunlight! the stinkin troll

 

[Mithrandir-Olor]

Beren and Luthien's romance is in part based on Tolkien and his own Wife.

I would make a fictionalized version of my Girlfriend the most Bad@$$ character as well.

 

[Tsagadar]

Beren and Luthien's romance is in part based on Tolkien and his own Wife.

hmmm...
Could it mean that Tolkien was vegetarian?
(more likely than most stuff there )

 

[morgoth145]

why is luthien allowed to use her ''magic'' that much and Gandalf for instance not?

 

[Uminya]

why is luthien allowed to use her ''magic'' that much and Gandalf for instance not?

That might be a self-imposed restriction on Gandalf's part, or it may have been imposed upon him by the Valar before he was sent to Middle Earth. His "magic" is also very subtle when he does use it, and I think plays into why he was given Narya by Cirdan (the ability to stir peoples' emotions, perhaps "magically"). The only time he ever seems to use his magic much is when he believes he is about to perish, as seen in the Hobbit and probably during his lone battle with the Balrog in Khazad-dum.

Luthien would obviously have had no reason for either internally restricting her power, now was there anyone to restrict it from her externally.

 

[PaigeSinclaire88]

Hello, everyone. I just joined this forum and I'd love to get your opinions on something. I just finished reading the Silmarillion for the second time, but the first time was ages ago, and I really didn't remember much of the details, which was awesome in a way because it was all new all over again. :*)

Ok, so I was just loving this book, both the amazing creativity and the pseudo-archaic structure which really helped me get lost in the whole world painted by Tolkien. I totally bought into it, which I think was why I was so jarred when I came to the chapter on Beren and Luthien. :*eek:

The way the story's played out seems so unlike the rest of the book, and most of what does my head in is the fairy tale nature of Luthien. The whole chapter seems more fairy-tale-like than the rest of the book, but Luthien is in a class by herself. As a half-maia, I'm sure she's supposed to have magical powers greater than the elves, but she's tossing them out all over the shop (unlike other actual maiar who call themselves wizards, I might add). :*(

The whole thing with growing her hair long to escape the tree/tower, and turning into a vampire (?) and flying about...the way she shuts down Sauron and puts the whole of Melkor's palace to sleep with a song...It was just way beyond suspension of disbelief (side note, if Finrod and the other elf lords can throw down songs of power, why don't they ever do that on the battlefield?).

Anyway, the whole thing seems like its of a completely different character than the rest of the book. Am I the only one thinking this? Am I just completely off base? Has my brain simply been turned to jelly by reading too many names in too short a time?

I completely agree. Personally that was my favorite part of the book. I found her character so mystical and beautiful. I won't lie even as an avid Tolkein fan I had trouble getting through the Simirillion aside from the part with Luthien and Baren. And coupled with the theory that Arwen is the reincarnated elf of Luthien to me just makes it that much better as far as lineage goes. The fairy tale like theme of those chapters are (for me anyways) what was able to tie the rest of the book together.

 

[HurinThalion]

Yes Alcuin,

It's not like Elves have some sort of magic powers that they invoke from some demon or anything. Working in a Christian school you get much ignorance regarding those things in LoTR. I was defending LoTR from some parents who said that it promotes 'magic', comparing it to Harry Potter.

I said that the beings that do 'magic' are either angelic beings (Maia) given that power by Eru (the wizards) or Elves of which such mystical powers were part of their creative makeup by Eru again.

That usually stopped them in their tracks. :*)

Playing devil's advocate (I know you posted this six year ago lol!!), but couldn't most if not all of the magic in Harry Potter be justified under the same logic? In HP, witches or wizards are born with the ability to harness magic in their blood. Muggles cannot use magic by studying lore, etc. Although people from the Wizarding World use spells or magical objects (like wands) to channel their abilities, and sometimes use inherently magical objects (like flying brooms), couldn't you argue that this is similar to Frodo's use of Elvish to activate the Phial of Galadriel, or of Gandalf using "incantations" when trying to bar the door against the Balrog in FotR? Or like a wizard using a staff or a normal person using a palantir or an elvish sword that glows blue when orcs approach?

 

[Phuc Do]

I think the Beren & Luthien story is like a fairy tail compare to the rest of the story. The things that Luthien do is extraordinary. Beren doesn't really do much he just tag along.
Lol she wear the pants in that relationship