What IS Tom Bombadil?

[J'ohn]

~L~ All right, all right, don't jump out on me! I was just making a hypothesis...If the Bombadil issue were so easy to resolve, it wouldn't have been the grand mystery it is...

Gaffer, I think that Elrond indicates that Tom Bombadil goes by many names, and the Valar themselves go by many names, so nominology isn't really an issue...

I'm sure Gandalf would have known about Tom being a Vala, but, think about it. If he did know, would he tell anyone? "Hey, fellas, there's a Vala living in the Withywindle, let's all pay him a visit and ask for autographs and favours!"...
Naaaah...

Bucky, you seem to be very knowledgeable on the issue...I'd be glad to hear your suggestion on the issue...

I would like to state, though, that if we want to be nit-picky about Tom's speech, then it should be pointed out that "Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn"...from that, one can judge that Tom can't be a Maia that arrived in Arda belatedly.

From what I remember from the 1st Book of Lost Tales, when [Part III, I think...or is that IV] it refers to the Valar coming to Middle Earth, Manwe and Varda in particular, it is written that "Now swiftly as they fared, Melkor was there before them...".
I take that as a clue that Melkor was the first "creature" to enter Arda.

Admittedly, your quote from the Silmarillion would counter that [is the Silmarillion more valid than the Books of Lost Tales? Which comes chronologically after LotR?], but I've always thought that te Valar came and went in Arda for some time...and while Melkor was back in the Outside, the Valar crafted the world...

After all, Treebeard claims to be the oldest living thing to still walk beneath the Sun... Tom also says he's the Eldest...That seems to be quite a conflict... except if Tom isn't "living", in the strict sense of the word... so, he's either Eru, a Vala, or a Maia.
Tom can't have been around before Melkor, because, I believe, Melkor was the first one to enter Arda...And, in any case, the hobbits don't know of any other "Dark Lord" exept Sauron. If Tom referred to Melkor, he should have used a different nomination, one that hobbits would be able to understand [in the Two Towers, it becomes obvious that the hobbits know about the theft of the Silmarills by Melkor (Morgoth)]

So, it's Maia, Vala, Eru. Maiar are influenced by the Ring, and Tom isn't, so he can't be a Maia.

Ultimately, he must be either a Vala or Eru. If he IS a Vala, then I think that it boils down to Aule. He can't ne the warlike Tulka or Orome; Manwe sounds too important to visit Middle-Earth; Ulmo most likely has never dwelt on land; Irmo and Mandos are the spirit guardians, so they can't really go outside Valinor. Guess who is singled out...

I think that Aule looks like Tom in many aspects. He is not posessive, and he is very interested in the Children of Illuvatar. Gandalf found the hobbits fascinating, so, why wouldn't a Vala that likes the Children of Illuvatar, also like to be close to hobbits? If Aule were to appear to hobbits, wouldn't he look much like Tom, always happy and dancing and singing?

Singing...that is a key element...the Ainur were the ones that sang the melody which spun Arda... And the Valar were the greatest of the Ainur... In some way, Tom controlled the Old Willow Man with singing..."I know the tune for him", Tom said.

I still rest my case that Tom is Aule... Not too probable, but possible, nonetheless...

SBS

 

[Branwen]

...Tom is older than Treebeard,because look what he says about himself in LOTR:'Eldest,that's what I am.Tom was here before the river and the TREES...'Treebeard is an ent but before the Elves taught him to talk he was nothing but a tree.
You maybe are right that Tom is Aule...But only maybe,cause somehow I feel it's impossible to find out who Tom really is.He's an enigma of Arda,and that's all we can be sure about...

 

[J'ohn]

Hmmm...I haven't thought of that, really...I thought he was refering to his territory, the Old Forest... Not Middle-Earth in general...Feh...

I agree, though, Tom is an enigma, and certainly one that is not in our hands to solve!

SBS

 

[Branwen]

exactly.Still,we can try cause it's simply interesting!(Playing detectives)

 

[Tyaronumen]

I do not think it very likely (well, actually it is extremely UNLIKELY) that Bombadil is Aule.

Aüle is, if you recall, basically Tolkien's equivalent of the Greek Hephaestus or the Roman Vulcan... ie. he is a smith god. He created (with unwanted "help" from Morgoth's chaotic doings) the earth, mountains, and rocks... shaping the land, etc... ie. he is the Vala most concerned with the "stuff and form" of Arda -- rock and metal.

He created Angainor, which chained Melkor for three Ages, and forged the vessels which now hold the sun and moon.

Later, we discover that he creates the Khazad, who clearly take after Aule in their love of metals and working the Earth...

He also trains the Noldor in smithcraft, indirectly enabling wonders such as the Silmarils, etc.

NOW: Bombadil does none of these things. While Tom seems to love his land and is the Master, he seems more content to live and let live amongst the trees. Now in the Silmarillion, you may recall that Aule and Kementari are speaking, and she worries about the Khazad cutting down trees... Aule says something to the effect of: "Yet they will need wood" and then returns to his work...

Bombadil seems to lend far more *attention* and concern to the children of Yavanna than Aule... I also notice that Bombadil is far more of a "space-cadet" type than Aule is portrayed as being... Bombadil is portrayed as a very merry fellow and his boots were yellow. We don't see much mirth or cheer from the Valar, and admittedly we don't know if Aule even wore boots.

Bit about the boots was probably a bit too facetious. Hmm.. but anyhow, look at the *followers* of Aule that we know about... these followers being Sauron and Curunir, both of whom were the chief of Aule's people at various times. Now does Bombadil *seem* like the type to have followers (if, indeed, he has any, since we see them not) who are easily turned to evil because of their over-powering desires to make new and wonderful things?

Also, Aule was tempted, similarly to Curunir and Sauron, in his creation of the Khazad. His love of creating and wish to share with others appear to have been his primary motivators so Iluvatar forgave him, but nonetheless, he gave in at least partially... We never really see Bombadil cave in to jack-squat or demonstrate any signs that he may have been tempted... as you note, he doesn't even appear to have cared about the Ring!

Final note... Goldberry. Goldberry is clearly "The River's Daughter"... Yavanna is certainly not ANY river's daughter in any way, shape or form. And if she were to go in disguise (with Aule), I doubt she would do so in the guise of The River's Daughter, which title seems to tie Goldberry more closely to the people of Ulmo than to those of Kementari.

Just my opinions!

I prefer Goldberry's answer on this subject... It is, in my opinion, the only valid response that can be given to identify anything accurately: "He is."

 

[Branwen]

I agree...
(One more thing according to which Tom couldn't be Aule:in Elvish,'aule'means 'invention'.To my mind it has nothing to do with Tom...)
By the way:here is one more thread where people discuss about who is Tom Bombadil.So,one guy has written:'when writing books,people often put themselves into their books.Maybe Tom is Tolkien himself?'
I think it's avery interesting idea,isn't it?...

 

[A Ranger]

I formally beleived that it was impossible for Tom to be Aule as well up until quite recently while re-reading my copy of The Fellowship of the Ring I noticed something Tom had said as he parted with the hobbits " 'I've got things to do,' he said: ' my making and my singing, my talkign and my walking and my watching of the country.....". The key word in that is making. As for Tom beinging more 'out there' then Aule I think I think i may have figured out why this may be. I believe that he was cloaked in flesh as the istari were, this makes all the peices of the puszzle of Tom come together. Imagine suddenly having a human body, with all the feelings that come along with it, it would be enough to put anyone through a loop. The biggest problem with Tom being Aule was always that he couldn't stand against Sauron, but if he was cloaked in flesh he would be weakend. The may evidence to my theory is Goldberry's song, "He (Frodo) stood as he had at times stood enchanted by fair elven voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was diffrent: less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to the mortal heart; marvellous and yet not strange."

 

[Branwen]

alright,that sounds pretty possible for Tom to be Aule.But,how to explain these words about Tom:'he'll be the Last as he was the First'(LotR)?Aule certainly wasn't the first,the first was Eru.On the other hand,this may only mean that Tom was the first to come to the Middle-earth,then everything suits. Oh,and one more 'but'(I think someone has already mentioned that)-Goldberry.Aule's wife is Yavanna,so logically,Goldberry=Yavanna.Well,THAT is really impossible,cause Golberry...wait!!!Look:'in the Valian Years,Yavanna planted the seeds she had prepared for so long...'Seeds!And Goldberry loved plants,especially flowers,so much!So probably,Goldberry could be Yavanna...Just,how to explain 'she was the daughter of the River?...'

 

[Lantarion]

As Tom is an enigma, I don't think it would be right to try to categorize him in any slot created by Tolkien; he himself did, indeed, create Tom as a mystery, a kind and jolly guy who is extremely knowledgable and powerful under a calm, amusing surface.
So, I wouldn't call him a Maia or a Vala(although I see it as a possibilty that he is of the latter); in the very popular poll- thread about Tom Bombadil (I think it was in this forum, or in the Hall of Fire) there is a very interesting option: 'nature spirit'. I think Tolkien didn't create Tom as anything in particular. Perhaps he was an unexpected turn of events; perhaps he came unannounced, without Iluvatar knowing. For where did Eru come from?
I think it should be left at that, that Tom is a complete and utter mystery, but a humorous and jolly character nonetheless.

Oh, and Branwen:

'Treebeard is an ent but before the Elves taught him to talk he was nothing but a tree.

Treebeard was not just a tree; he was a promonent figure among the Ents, who were Olvar. They were Maiar, in a sense, as Gandalf is a Maia, but with different power. They were set upon Middle-earth to protect the trees (the highest of the Olvar).

 

[Branwen]

Alright,Tom's an enigma for US.But Tolkien himself knew who is Tom Bombadil of course;I think he just might not have wanted to tell his readers the correct answer,maybe feeling that enigmas are important.Still,I believe Tolkien has left some clues for those who want to find out the true about Tom.We just gotta keep on searching.....

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

(and about Treebeard-my mistake...)

 

[J'ohn]

Pontifex...I think it's no use wondering why Tolkien put Tom in there, and described him as he is... He became an element of the world of Arda, and as such we must judge him...

I agree, perhaps Tolkien just thought to implement Tom when LotR was just a "sequel to The Hobbit"... but then again, one would argue why he stayed there...

Your nature spirit proposition, though, is exquisite! In fact, it made sense to me for a long time...
However, as a nature spirit, he wouldn't have been able to exit his "territory", his "area of infuence"...the Old Forest. But he does, still, and plenty of times, and he even goes to urban areas, like his visits to Farmer Maggot...That's why I discarded the spirit thing...

As I can see, Branwen, you found out about Goldberry!
Yes, I think that Goldberry really is Yavanna...
Well, when I think of Goldberry, three female Vala come to mind...Yavanna, Nessa and Vana. Of those three, Yavanna is the one who cares about plants most... Let me find my Silmarillion...there's a description of her there...
A-ha!
"In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves."

Remember that Goldberry is clad in green more often than not... And, when we first meet her, she has her feet in water...
Also, note the image of her as the departing hobbits see her...it looks strikingly like what Tolkien described Yavanna above...

It is futile to go on talking about this, I know...

But I looooove it!

SBS

 

[Branwen]

okidokie,so Goldberry is Yavanna,then Tom is Aule....Well,now what?...Can we announce to the rest-hey everybody,we KNOW who Tom is?...
Somehow I don't think so...it was too simple to be true!
OK,to sum up,the main theories about who is Tom are:
-Aule's version
-'nature spirit' version
-Eru version
-Tolkien version
-enigma version
...and for now,the last one seems to be the best....
ah...I think we need some refreshing ideas..

 

[Bombadillodillo]

"Tom Bombadil is the worst character in the movie"

Vidsa,

He is perhaps my favorite person in Middle Earth. My complaint would be that he doesn't make it into the movie.

Most argue he would be a distraction in the film, but he plays the same role in the book. His role, I think is to raise two important: who is he and why is he?

Questions Tolkien thinks are too much lacking in post modern culture and thought. He is a mystery and I do not know who Bombadil is, but he makes you wonder. That is the point.

I am not saying that this is the hidden agenda of Tolkien or the point of the whole book, but if he had any ax to grind against modernity, I do think it comes out most of all in Tom Bombadil. The story is meant to be just that a good story, a tale of wonderful and mysterious deeds, a modern myth and it succeeds. But at the heart of good myth is mystery and Bombadil is just that.

 

[Chymaera]

-Goldberry.Aule's wife is Yavanna,so logically,Goldberry=Yavanna.Well,THAT is really impossible,cause Golberry...wait!!!Look:'in the Valian Years,Yavanna planted the seeds she had prepared for so long...'Seeds!And Goldberry loved plants,especially flowers,so much!So probably,Goldberry could be Yavanna...Just,how to explain 'she was the daughter of the River?...'

Well Ulmo was passing by and well......
that is like kissing your sister isn't it

 

[J'ohn]

Originally posted by Branwen
-enigma version
...and for now,the last one seems to be the best....
ah...I think we need some refreshing ideas..

I agree wholeheartedly!

[puts thinking cap on]

Hey, I know!

Tom Bombadil is a program...like Agents from the Matrix...he's been sent to monitor Arda...Yes...or maybe he's a virus...or maybe he's an orc...

[takes thinking cap off]
[dips head in cold water]

SBS

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by J'ohn
~L~ All right, all right, don't jump out on me! I was just making a hypothesis...If the Bombadil issue were so easy to resolve, it wouldn't have been the grand mystery it is...

Gaffer, I think that Elrond indicates that Tom Bombadil goes by many names, and the Valar themselves go by many names, so nominology isn't really an issue...

I'm sure Gandalf would have known about Tom being a Vala, but, think about it. If he did know, would he tell anyone? "Hey, fellas, there's a Vala living in the Withywindle, let's all pay him a visit and ask for autographs and favours!"...
Naaaah...

Bucky, you seem to be very knowledgeable on the issue...I'd be glad to hear your suggestion on the issue...

I would like to state, though, that if we want to be nit-picky about Tom's speech, then it should be pointed out that "Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn"...from that, one can judge that Tom can't be a Maia that arrived in Arda belatedly.

From what I remember from the 1st Book of Lost Tales, when [Part III, I think...or is that IV] it refers to the Valar coming to Middle Earth, Manwe and Varda in particular, it is written that "Now swiftly as they fared, Melkor was there before them...".
I take that as a clue that Melkor was the first "creature" to enter Arda.

Admittedly, your quote from the Silmarillion would counter that [is the Silmarillion more valid than the Books of Lost Tales? Which comes chronologically after LotR?], but I've always thought that te Valar came and went in Arda for some time...and while Melkor was back in the Outside, the Valar crafted the world...

After all, Treebeard claims to be the oldest living thing to still walk beneath the Sun... Tom also says he's the Eldest...That seems to be quite a conflict... except if Tom isn't "living", in the strict sense of the word... so, he's either Eru, a Vala, or a Maia.
Tom can't have been around before Melkor, because, I believe, Melkor was the first one to enter Arda...And, in any case, the hobbits don't know of any other "Dark Lord" exept Sauron. If Tom referred to Melkor, he should have used a different nomination, one that hobbits would be able to understand [in the Two Towers, it becomes obvious that the hobbits know about the theft of the Silmarills by Melkor (Morgoth)]

So, it's Maia, Vala, Eru. Maiar are influenced by the Ring, and Tom isn't, so he can't be a Maia.

Ultimately, he must be either a Vala or Eru. If he IS a Vala, then I think that it boils down to Aule. He can't ne the warlike Tulka or Orome; Manwe sounds too important to visit Middle-Earth; Ulmo most likely has never dwelt on land; Irmo and Mandos are the spirit guardians, so they can't really go outside Valinor. Guess who is singled out...

I think that Aule looks like Tom in many aspects. He is not posessive, and he is very interested in the Children of Illuvatar. Gandalf found the hobbits fascinating, so, why wouldn't a Vala that likes the Children of Illuvatar, also like to be close to hobbits? If Aule were to appear to hobbits, wouldn't he look much like Tom, always happy and dancing and singing?

Singing...that is a key element...the Ainur were the ones that sang the melody which spun Arda... And the Valar were the greatest of the Ainur... In some way, Tom controlled the Old Willow Man with singing..."I know the tune for him", Tom said.

I still rest my case that Tom is Aule... Not too probable, but possible, nonetheless...

SBS

If Tom Bombadil is Aule wouldn't Sauron try to drive him out or even flee from the presence from his former master? I don't believe Bombadil could be Aule for all the Valar were supposed to dwell in Valinor until the return of Melkor and Bombadil would care, for the Valar were known to get angry (look at the downfall of Numenor) and I believe that Aule would have attempted to drive Sauron out for revenge.

 

[lilhobo]

well i aint steep in the lore of the silmarillion but i think tom has to be one of the valar, since he cared enough to come to ME to watch over the children.

and the Valar havent been interfering in the affairs of men or half elven since the Numenoreans.

Besides we have Gandalf the Wise as the guiding force of the third age anyways

 

[Lantarion]

If Tom was "the First", he would have had to be in M-e before Melkor.. And he is not mentioned in the Sil, I believe.. So why was he send?

 

[ReadWryt]

Did it ever cross anyone's mind that when shoe-horning Bombadil into Middle-earth, a realm he was totally alien to and never intended to be included in at the time Tolkien wrote about him for the Oxford Newpaper he created "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" for, that he never gave any thought to the origins of the plot device he was borrowing from himself and how it relates to the rest of Middle-earth?

 

[lilhobo]

same for Glorfindel......JRR just borrowed a name from the past work and forgets to enlighten us to its origin