When did 🧝Galadriel grow mallorn trees?

[TheManInTheMoon]

So mallorn trees, at least few, existed in early Third Age, before the foundation of Dol Guldur probably. But Galadriel had never visited Lorien in TA until 1060!

I guess she used Elessar to grow some mallorn trees after the War of the Elves and Sauron. It seems Olorin gifted it to her sometime after the first war of SA. And he told her she can use its power to make the land of her dwelling into the fairest land of Middle-earth.

Galadriel lived in Lorien for quite a long time in Second Age, so she probably grew mallorn trees in Lorien back then. But probably they didn't become truly mature and strengthened, except maybe very very few of them.

It seems that Galadriel grew mallorn trees to mature and immense size and number in 1060, but she didn't finish this task until 1981 when she returned to Lorien again and put forth all of her power to save Lorien and established the Fortress of the Trees.

Just my opinion in reconciling Tolkien's messy inconsistent writings. I don't think there's a better way to reconcile them.

 

[Alcuin]

From “Description Of The Island Of Númenor” in Unfinished Tales,

[The mallorn’s] fruit was a nut with a silver shale; and some were given as gift by Tar-Aldarion … to … Gil-galad of Lindon. They did not take root in that land; but Gil-galad gave some to … Galadriel, and under her power they grew and flourished in … Lothlórien…
​

While researching this, I also came across this passage in “Amroth and Nimrodel” under the section “History of Galadriel and Celeborn”.

The people of Lórien were … Silvan Elves in origin, but ruled by princes of [the] Sindar[] … (as was the realm of Thranduil in … Mirkwood…) They had however been much mingled with Noldor …, who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age. At that time Elrond went westward [sic.; probably meaning simply that he did not cross Misty Mountains] and established the refuge of Imladris. Celeborn went at first to Lórien and fortified it against any further attempts of Sauron to cross the Anduin. When … Sauron withdrew to Mordor, … Celeborn rejoined Galadriel in Lindon.
​

The passage in square brackets beginning “sic.” (for sic erat scriptum “thus it had been written,”) mean JRRT wrote this material, not his son. However, Christopher Tolkien then immediately comments that

This account is of course greatly at variance with that contained in “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn.” … The older story of the relations of Galadriel and Celeborn with Eregion and Lórien seems to have been modified in many important respects, but how much of it would have been retained in any fully written narrative cannot be said. Celeborn’s association with Lórien is now placed much further back (for in “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn” he never went to Lórien at all during the Second Age); and we learn here that many Noldorin Elves passed through Moria to Lórien after the destruction of Eregion. … The implication of the extract just given is that after Eregion’s fall Celeborn led this migration to Lórien, while Galadriel joined Gil-galad in Lindon; but elsewhere, in a writing contemporary with this, it is said explicitly that they both at that time “passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lórien.” It is neither asserted nor denied in these late writings that Galadriel (or Celeborn) had relations with Lórien before 1697, and there are no other references outside “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn” to Celebrimbor’s revolt (at some time between 1350 and 1400) against their rule in Eregion, nor to Galadriel’s departure at the time to Lórien and her taking up rule there, while Celeborn remained behind in Eregion. It is not made clear in the late accounts where Galadriel and Celeborn passed the long years of the Second Age after the defeat of Sauron in Eriador; there are at any rate no further mentions of their agelong sojourn in Belfalas.
​

This last citation of CJRT bears upon posts in another, recent thread.

In short, as is usual, the textual history of Galadriel’s movements in Middle-earth is extremely convoluted, with even materials written at the same time in conflict. It is not possible, in my opinion, to state decisively that “Galadriel had never visited Lorien in TA until 1060.” It is most unclear when she and Celeborn first arrived.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

It is not made clear in the late accounts where Galadriel and Celeborn passed the long years of the Second Age after the defeat of Sauron in Eriador

It is actually stated several times in later writings that they lived in Lorien after the first war of Second Age. "Thither they returned twice before the Last Alliance ... and when the shadow of recovery of Sauron arose" in around Third Age 1050 they dwelt again in Lorien for a time.

Seems like Rivendell was another dwelling place of them. Their daughter had fallen in love with Elrond. And anyway Elrond was their family. No surprise. But unfortunately Tolkien doesn't explicitly states this dwelling of Galadriel in Rivendell in late accounts. There is a mention of Galadriel in Greenwood, and it's kinda implied that it was in Second Age. The borders of Lorien "had extended" to south Greenwood.

It's crazy how Tolkien never explicitly and unambiguously wrote where was Galadriel other than Lorien (and the other borders of Lorien in Greenwood) after the War. There's her dwelling at Belfalas, but that's discarded, it's from a writing that contradicts 'canon'.

Tolkien should've stopped messing around with Galadriel's origin story in Aman and should've just fixed and filled the holes in her history.

 

[Olorgando]

Tolkien should've stopped messing around with Galadriel's origin story in Aman and should've just fixed and filled the holes in her history.

I have the impression that JRRT, especially after his retirement in 1959, was unable to refrain from "messing around with Galadriel's ... story", I suspect egged on by letters exchanged with people who found parallels to the New Testament's Virgin Mary. He did point out early on, IIRC, that besides some similarities, there were plenty of differences. But after he had retired, perhaps the missing rigor of "Beowulf" studies (C.S. Lewis had accepted a chair at Cambridge in 1954, and was probably declining in feistiness by then anyway) allowed JRRT's, I'll call it "mushy side", to become ever more prominent - which Tom Shippey in one of his books after publication of the final volume of HoMe, PoMe in 1996, noted, with sweat on his brow (I imagine). Shippey has defended JRRT, especially against some of the more pompous of his early critics, by (very unfairly! 😈 ) savagely beating them about the head with comments they had committed to print, sometimes decades earlier. Reading volumes 6 to 8 and part of 9 of HoMe must have been painful for Shippey, as he found many passages that JRRT thankfully later revised that would have confirmed the charges of the pompous asses ('scuse my French) that were idiotic for the finished product.

To put it succinctly, the trend in JRRT's writing about Galadriel (@Elthir is the go-to member for details) might have led to a point where my reaction could have reached 🤢 to 🤮 ...

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

I don't know what you are talking about.

Tolkien wrote the letter about Galadriel being not really a resemblance of Mary in 25 January 1971.

He did a great job in writing more details about Galadriel's origin story in Aman in 1968.

His butchering Galadriel's character came into his head only in 1973. He should've completed the revision of the super flawed Galadriel and her history in First Age and especially in Second Age and early Third Age. But nope, Tolkien decided to radically change the entire character of Galadriel. In other word, Galadriel wasn't Galadriel anymore. It was a wholly different character.

 

[Olorgando]

I don't know what you are talking about.

JRRT had spent himself in writing his masterpiece LoTR. A combination of his decades-long obsession with the Sil, and the story he had invented for his children.
And he only got his magnum opus finished because he had a publisher, (later Sir) Stanley Unwin breathing quite gently down his neck. Otherwise it would be another Unfinished Tale that nobody would care about (as would have been the case with the Sil without LoTR). I found your letter of 25 Jan 1971 (no. 320) in Humphrey Carpenter's book. Conceded, I thought he had commented on this "similarity" earlier. But he never had a chance of completing the Sil in a coherent fashion, is my opinion. Besides being exhausted, there were numerous and massive distractions - and oncoming old age, and domestic issues - that kept him from concentrating on the Sil. Never mind having to write back Galadriel (not the only new character from LoTR which had not appeared in his First-Age saga as it stood then) into a ton of stuff, just getting contradictions within versions (prose, poems, annals) reconciled was a huge task; that he was far past being up to ...

 

[Elthir]

Now aged and less bendy, in any case I think I simply prefer the idea that the Mallorn-trees grew
in Lothlórien, as in, they grew there naturally before Galadriel. Again, that's just a preference in
the face of what I know Tolkien wrote about this.

Maybe Gando will approve! Or not? I'm not saying Gando is also aged or less bendy . . .

. . . I just mean: possibly approve of defying a Tolkien idea

Here's a few non-posthumously published references that I take along within the context of said preference, but prefaced with a draft text from HOME that I am not arguing is anything more than
a draft text.

Draft for the Song of Nimrodel: "An Elven-lord he was of old // before the birth of men // when first the boughs were hung with gold // in fair Lothlorien"

Haldir (The Fellowship of the Ring): "But if there are mallorn-trees beyond the Great Sea, none have reported it."

"Behold! You are come to Cerin Amroth," said Haldir. "For this is the heart of the ancient realm as it was long ago, and here is the mound of Amroth, where in happier days his high house was built."

Treebeard (The Two Towers): " . . . of Laurelindórenan! That is what the Elves used to call it, but now they make the name shorter: Lothlórien they call it ( . . . ) Land of the Valley of Singing Gold, that was it, once upon a time. Now it is the Dreamflower."

Add a posthumously published GNOME reference from a late typescript.

"It's chief wealth was in its trees, a remnant of the great forests of the Elder Days, of which the chief were the great mellyrn ("golden trees") of vast girth and immense height."

JRRT, Silvan Elves And Silvan Elvish, text 2, GNOME

 

[Olorgando]

Maybe Gando will approve! Or not? I'm not saying Gando is also aged or less bendy . . .
. . . I just mean: possibly approve of defying a Tolkien idea

As to point 1 I can only say "ah shaddap!" (ouch! my back ...)
As to point 2: have my rants about "mannish tradition" really been that unclear? I would have thought that I had stated my opinions on early (BoLT) and later (MR, WoTJ, PoMe) writings drastically enough that defying a JRRT idea is practically inevitable for me ... 🤨

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Here's a few non-posthumously published references

"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew" - Galadriel who created the Golden Wood

I'm not saying that Treebeard is wrong, he is referencing early Third Age vs late Third Age if we are reconciling Tolkien's early idea of mallorn trees of Lorien with his later idea... But I just liked to point out that Treebeard is not know-it-all, Tolkien explicitly stated in his letters that not everything that Treebeard or any of his characters say are necessarily really fully correct. That messed up head Treebeard probably doesn't remember Lorien's first and second names, especially if you are taking those later invented names as canon.

Im not saying that you shouldn't or you should, but I love how you like to belittle every action of Galadriel. Literally everything about her. Smells like Feanorian propaganda to me.

 

[Elthir]

"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew" - Galadriel who created the Golden Wood

Are you posting this line as if it's a fact that Galadriel is talking about the mallorn trees here? If so, I invite anyone to read her full song from Farewell to Lorien, which references Eldamar and "beside the walls of Elven Tirion", and . . .

" . . . there long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years".

Im not saying that you shouldn't or you should, but I love how you like to belittle every action of Galadriel. Literally everything about her. Smells like Feanorian propaganda to me.

My preference here has nothing to do with belittling Galadriel. And if you are referring to the fact that I believe Celebrimbor is the original Lord of Eregion, that opinion is based on:

A) textual concerns

B) and quite the opposite from "belittling" Galadriel -- my opinion here includes that I think the scenario Tolkien was thinking of doesn't make her look good -- compared to Gil-galad in Lindon, who didn't even let Sauron into his land, according to Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age.

And with respect to the mallorn trees, I have no problem whatsoever that she introduces them of course, it's rather a matter of the historical scenario here. It's about where, and when, she introduces them, and that would be the same if Tolkien had given the introduction of these trees in Lorien to Celeborn, within the same historical framework.

Here again, the opposite of your assertion, in my opinion Galadriel should be able to grow the trees in Lindon. But oops, an external "reason" doesn't seem to mesh here [Grey Havens: "It was indeed a mallorn ( . . . ) the only mallorn west of the Mountains and east of the sea, and one of the finest in the world."]. I note that Tolkien writes that the mallorn trees grew in Lindon (GNOME), then deletes it, and (UT) merely states that they didn't take root in that land [cough].

For the record I'm a huge fan of Galadriel and have loved her since I first found her in the 1970s -- and because of that, I have also enjoyed chatting about her, and trying to sift through Tolkien's many texts about her, on multiple Tolkien forums for roughly the last twenty years.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

I don't believe you. You seem to exceedingly hate her.

Galadriel is singing a poem. The golden tree she's referencing to is Yavanna's Tree, as it is capitalized. The poem is not literally to be taken in every phrasing it. What I take from this is that Galadriel could grew trees with her singing powers in certain lands and situations, such as in Valinor and Eressea and in Lindorinand. Her ability of growing and preserving the Mallorn trees in Lorien diminished by order of magnitude when her Ring lost power.

And I'm using the same textual evidence to believe in Galadriel as the ruler of Eregion. You simply don't even understand her character and keep comparing her to GilGalad who has little to nothing similarity to her. She was given the chance of saving herself from her doom by Annatar, and yet eventually she overcame her temptations and rejected him and kicked him out of her city. As is told in NoME and UT. Then Annatar worked with Celebrimbor "in secret, unknown to Galadriel"

I have never seen any Galadriel hater as awesome as you. Everytime I see her being mentioned on here, you come up with some bizzare arguments to degrade her. And believe me I've seen a lot of Galadriel haters but none of them reach to your level. You are like the President of Galadriel Haters Club.

Galadriel's chief Yavanaian achievement was Lorien, and you try so hard to discard Tolkien's absolute definite idea about this.

Some of Galadriel's most badass moments are her fights in the Kinslayings and her rage across Helcaraxë. But you are so glad to ignore these and call them nonsense.

One of Galadriel's chief Aulëan achievements, if not the chief, is Eregion. There you go saying she arrived to Eregion when it was already established.

I am honestly shocked that you don't like to think Galadriel fled like a coward from Beleriand as soon as Morgoth broke the siege. You'll probably say this as well, someday, when your hate reaches its peak.

Your preferred version of Galadriel is honestly the most boring version of her ever. If Galadriel was really like that, then I honestly hate her more than all characters. She seems so detestable like that. I mean, she's already detestable even in her most superior versions

Tolkien's biggest mistake was inventing the character of Galadriel.

 

[Elthir]

( . . . ) Galadriel is singing a poem. The golden tree she's referencing to is Yavanna's Tree, as it is capitalized.

And what I basically said was: that the line you posted was not in reference to Galadriel creating the Golden Wood in Lorien.

Anyway, been posting about Galadriel for roughly twenty years now, in various multiple forums (some not even active any longer), under various names. Not a single one has ever been an attempt to belittle the character, nor have any ever been taken that way by anyone else, that I'm aware of . . .

. . . and if anyone takes them that way . . . well, I am the author of my own posts, and I know my own reasons for posting what I do.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Awesome work, the President of Galadriel Haters Club, keep going, you can make Galadriel seem more useless and detestable than what she really is in her superior versions.

20 years of spreading raging hate towards a fictional character...

that the line you posted was not in reference to Galadriel creating the Golden Wood in Lorien.

It was a reference to her singing powers ability which she developed under Yavanna and Melian. And Tolkien decided to expand this power of her by having her creating an entire forest. You can't change historical facts anyway. But you sure do have a way better than Annatar and Melko to twist things and turn them into weird statements.

The author of the book himself didn't know what's up. So it's not weird actually that us fans are like this as well. But on another hand, some haters deliberately try hard to make things more confusing and messed up and less interesting.

 

[Olorgando]

Awesome work, the President of Galadriel Haters Club, keep going, you can make Galadriel seem more useless and detestable than what she really is in her superior versions.
20 years of spreading raging hate towards a fictional character...

TMITM, I think you need to take a dip in a frozen pond where you've chopped a hole into the ice (you can probably find YouTube videos from Russia and Scandinavia, especially Finland, as how-to-do help). Or in case you indulge in the Hobbit hobby of pipe-weed (as I do, though not the pipe sort) consider a change of "brand". It's been a long time since I stumbled across similarly incoherent babbling as in your last two posts here.

 

[Elthir]

TMITM, I think you need to take a dip in a frozen pond where you've chopped a hole into the ice (you can probably find YouTube videos from Russia and Scandinavia, especially Finland, as how-to-do help). Or in case you indulge in the Hobbit hobby of pipe-weed (as I do, though not the pipe sort) consider a change of "brand". It's been a long time since I stumbled across similarly incoherent babbling as in your last two posts here.

For a moment there I tried to figure out the meaning of TMITM before I read on, as if it was something like IMHO or AFAIK!

 

[Olorgando]

... as if it was something like IMHO ...

You may have heard the rumor that the London dialect (slang?) called Cockney is notorious for a slovenliness called "dropping aitches".
Here is where I indulge in the same; though I guess neither you are, nor anyone else is, surprised at this ... 😈

 

[Halasían]

What is up with all the Galadriel-hate from you Mr MoonMan? I've read Either's many posts on Galadriel over the years and never once got the impression he "hated" her. I've only seen it coming from you. You sure you're not looking into a mirror and seeing yourself?

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

I suppose Either made me realize how canon Galadriel is an idiotic character that doesn't make any sense. Everything about her is ridiculous. She's the least interesting character in all Tolkien writings.

She let so many people die because she was a coward. Yet she paid the loremasters to write 'Galadriel was the most valiant'.

She never did anything much impressive. Yet she paid the loremasters to write 'Galadriel was the greatest and mightiest Elf that remained' or 'Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor'.

She kept being a lazy selfish monster who didn't follow her dream of establishing a realm of her own for 6000 years even when she had all the chances. Yet she paid the loremasters to exaggerate how eager she was to establish a realm of her own just so she might make her refusal of the Ring look cool.

I can't find any other explanation for her inconsistent character except that she paid the loremasters.

She's right there as low as Amrod and Amras.

The most overrated character ever. And this comes from someone who was one of the greatest Galadriel fans of all time and spent years praising her. Only for so long one can fool themselves...

 

[Olorgando]

I can't find any other explanation for her inconsistent character except that she paid the loremasters.

I can. She was a late addition to the legendarium that was not easy to fit in the existing writings pre LoTR (where she simply didn't exist), and that JRRT kept having second thoughts about - second-guessing himself - at a time when his creative skills were waning.

The "loremasters" you deride are simply the hesitant, undecided, self-contradictory JRRT himself. He did write the "blurbs", as I believe the term is for book jacket comments by critics (practically always enthusiastic), but never got around to writing anything "between the book-covers" to justify the "blurbs".

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

This is just a poor excuse Olorgando.

It wasn't hard at all to simply write : "Galadriel was very heroic in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears and saved her comrades Mablung and Beleg". The most valiant woman who fought against Feanor and his sons somehow starts acting out of character when she hears the name of Angband.

Galadriel fights in the Fall of Eregion, yet she doesn't appear at all in the more important war that is the Last Alliance. So much for "the greatest of Elven women". At least we'd expect her to participate in healing and supply providing roles in the Last Alliance but we don't see her doing this. How hard is it to write 'Galadriel was the chief supply provider and weapon forger in the Last Alliance' or to write 'Galadriel fought in the Last Alliance'? Especially since Tolkien slapped us thousands of times with Galadriel being super wise and unusually valiant and strong for a woman and she was very determined to fight Sauron and all that.

As for ruling matter, Tolkien was just doing fine when he decided that Galadriel with Celeborn ruled Harlindon, and later Lake Evendim, and then Eregion, and after the Fall of Eregion she then ruled Lorien

The problem started when Tolkien decided that the female Feanor settled in for being a subject of Celebrimbor and Amdir and Amroth and never got to rule again until Amroth's death. This badly contradicts Galadriel's motivations.