Where did faramir take frodo and sam??

[NetherDemon]

After reading every reply in this forum, I began to wander, are there any other inaccuracies in P.J.'s Two Towers. I'm doing a research paper on how this movie trailed from Tolkien's books and would greatly appreciate a reply.

WELL!!!! You sure opened a can of worms!

Alterations from book:

FOTR
1. No Tom Bombadil! (Not that I care) Old Man Willow would have been cool - so would the encounter with the Wight in the Barrow Downs.
2. I think there was actually 11 years between Bilbo's Birthday party and Gandalf's return from the Library in Gondor.
3. One of the Hobbit's was put to sleep by the Black Riders in Bree out in the street (if I recall correctly)
4. There is NO mention of a love affair between Aragorn and Arwen. However, in the Appendix Timeline, Aragorn marries Arwen shortly after the Ring is Destroyed and he is ordained King.
5. Arwen doesn't cast a spell to raise the river against the Black Riders - Elrond does with a touch from Gandalf.


TTT
1. Elves at Helms Deep.
2. Ent's deciding not to help Merry and Pippin until after the revelation by Treebeard when he sees Southern Fangorn is just a bunch of tree stumps.
3. Faramir taking Frodo/Sam/Gollum to Osgilath and everything that happens there.
4. Gollum leads Frodo and Sam into Shleob's lair at the steps of Mordor in TTT, at the end.
5. There were no wargs in TTT, or any of the LOTR book that I recall. I think they were only in The Hobbit. Can't remember at the moment.

I'm sure there's more, just can't think of anymore at the moment. The rest is minor.



And the most important thing - brought up by a Tolkien Scholar in one of the DVD Biographies - NEVER does Tolkien ever say that the Elves had Pointy Vulcan Ears in any of his books.


All this aside, I still LOVED every minute of the movies and can't wait for the last one!

 

[The Wookie]

HEY MELKO BELCHA

HEAR!! HEAR!! I agree wholeheartedly Melko Belcha. But you have to realize that no matter how accurate a movie may be to a book, there is always going to be dissapointments whether they be big or small. I mean, come on, what happened to Spider-man. They killed that movie. What I mean is that The Two Towers could've been way worse and at the same time, way better. Bearing this in mind, I now mean to exploit those innacuracies in P.J's the Two Towers. Oh, by the way, I'm a hardcore fan of the BOOKS, not the movies. The movie was okay but the book is way better. One more thing, can I quote you on your reply to me?

 

[Melko Belcha]

Re: Any other inaccuracies in the Two Towers?

Originally posted by The Wookie
After reading every reply in this forum, I began to wander, are there any other inaccuracies in P.J.'s Two Towers. I'm doing a research paper on how this movie trailed from Tolkien's books and would greatly appreciate a reply.

To add to what NetherDemon said
-Theoden was not possesed by Saruman, he was influenced by the words of Grima, like what could happen to any person, it was not some magical trick by Saruman.
-Theoden does not grow younger, he still has a long white beard in ROTK.
-Aragorn has Narsil with him even in Bree, and is reforged before leaving Rivendell

There is much more, but I just don't have the time to write it all.

 

[NetherDemon]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
Middle-earth is the world of Tolkien's imagination, it is not a shared world like Dungeons & Dragons or Star Wars. During the process of writing LOTR Tolkien took the time to learn how to stew rabbit, the phases of the moon, how fast storms move, and much more. It upsets me that Tolkien spent fifteen years writing the story to have some guy come along and rewrite the characters and key elements of the story that Tolkien worked so hard on. Anybody who has read HoME Volumes VI-IX know the labor and hard work he put into every detail, and to have PJ disregard it just is not right. I was just as mad a Romeo and Juliet for the same reasons. People want to say, 'What about PJ's poetic rights?', I ask, 'What about Tolkien's rights to the story he wrote?'. If some band was to go in and rerecord The Beatles White Album (or any album you like) and rewrote some of the songs, like turning Blackbird into the Big Bang Boog-a-loo, I would be just as mad. I believe in the rights and respect of the people who create books, music, artwork, or anything that comes from their own imagination, not getting famous because you rip someone else's work off.

He's not ripping off Tolkien.

1. Tolkien's publisher sold the movie rights to Peter Jackson.
2. Peter Jackson does nothing but praise Tolkien's works in almost every interview he does.
3. The movies are called The Lord of the Rings: FOTR, TTT and RTOK and it clearly states that they are based on J.R.R. Tolkiens works.
4. PJ has creative license to paraphrase Tolkien's works and/or make slight alterations in any way he sees fit on the Movie Screen because he now owns the intellectual property.

Any director can take the Beatles White Album and put it on a Movie Screen any damm way they want - so long as they have written permission or own the rights to the original songs. I believe Michael Jackson owns rights to all the Beatles songs - GOD KNOWS what he might do with them, but he technically can do whatever he want's with them. It might not make you happy, but it's legal! Atleast PJ is preserving the integrity of Tolkien's story. A few alterations doesn't hurt anyone - except hardcore "Tolkienologists," but they can't do anything except protest it.

Sorry!

 

[Melko Belcha]

Being a muscian in a band an dealing with copywrite laws, I know all this. It makes me mad that someone with money can have more authority over things then the person who created it. It is a disrespect to the entire creative process.

Why would you want to release anything to the world that you had created, when in 10 years someone could gut it out and do whatever they wanted to do with it?

Copyright laws were created to protect artists rights. But now if you don't have enuff cash you can loose you rights, like what happened with Paul McCartney, Michael Jackson has the say to thoose songs, not the man who wrote it. Is that right? I say no. Tolkien was forced to sell his rights because he needed money for his sick wife, and he regreeted selling them because he was afraid someone would do what PJ has done.

If PJ was such a 'visionary', then why not write his own fantasy story? Because he needs someones else's work to go from. As I have said before PJ loves the story, not the labour and hard work Tolkien went through, if he did he would have stayed truer to the books instead of making us sit through his fan fiction that he probably wrote in 6th grade.

 

[joxy]

Originally posted by NetherDemon
(I'm an English Major BTW)
I love the movies. I have no issues with anything except the....Orc....

How on earth can you reconcile those two statements?
Here an English Major would be an officer in the army, but I assume your English Majority is some sort of academic qualification in English language and literature.
In both those areas PJ's version is sometimes so hideous that anyone with an expert knowledge like yours should be able to distinguish it from the high quality of T's writing of both.
No issues with some of the film's horrible words, and the many other incidents that are at least as idiotic as THAT orc?

 

[The Wookie]

HEY NETHERDEMON

I am in no way shape or form disagreeing with the fact that P.J. owns the movie rights for LOTR. I was simply stating my oppinion about the innaccuracies. I'm entitled to my oppinion just as you are entitled to yours. In short, please recieve my sincerest apalogies for any offensive material that I may have posted that hurt your ego.

P.S. It was just a question. You didn't have to bite my head off. (sob..sob..sniff) And poeple call me melodramatic. Gee, I wonder why?

P.S.S. Don't answer that last question.

 

[NetherDemon]

Re: HEY NETHERDEMON

Originally posted by The Wookie
I am in no way shape or form disagreeing with the fact that P.J. owns the movie rights for LOTR. I was simply stating my oppinion about the innaccuracies. I'm entitled to my oppinion just as you are entitled to yours. In short, please recieve my sincerest apalogies for any offensive material that I may have posted that hurt your ego.

P.S. It was just a question. You didn't have to bite my head off. (sob..sob..sniff) And poeple call me melodramatic. Gee, I wonder why?

P.S.S. Don't answer that last question.

lol

I'm not biting anyone's head off! I'm just trying to calm down people who think PJ's adaptation is the most profane form of sacrilege in human history!

Tolkien did do alot of work in his book - and he has a wonderful book to show for it. But PJ also did alot of work on the movie, which Tolkien had nothing to do with - aside from the story itself. PJ is putting his "signature" on the movie with these minor alterations, atleast that's what I think he's doing. PJ has done nothing to corrupt the integrity of the books - PJ is not rewriting the LOTR books - he's made a few movies based on them. If people take the movies for the original work, then they are idiots and have only themselves to be ashamed of! Of course the movies are different. No one disputes that. Most knowledgeable people know that the books came first and anyone who doesn't like the movies are welcome to ignore them and re-read the book! The books are copywrighted and can never be re-written in some other author's perspective. But the owner of the books could, theoretcially, write the books over again from another character's perspective.

Kinda like the Beowulf epic. I think the real author of Beowulf is unknown, but it is an immensly popular story. A few hundred years later, some author came along and re-wrote their own version of the story - only it was from Grendel's perspective. Now - this doesn't compare to well with PJ's movies, because he is re-telling the story in a different medium (movie) and he is maintaining the 3rd person, omniscient perspective. But my point is that people have re-told great stories throughout the centuries in several different ways. And I have no problem really with all this debating - it makes for great research paper topics and seminar courses!

I'm just amazed at how completely outraged some people are with defending Tolkien's work. Shakespeare never got this much support! And this is just a web forum!

Try to enjoy the movies for what they are. I know it's difficult to set aside what you already know from the books, but if you can, the movies are soooo great! The people who love the movie the most are those that never read the books yet! And I bet they are anxious to read the books to see how they differ from the movie.

 

[Michel Delving]

Read the book about 20 years ago.

Saw the Fellowship of the Ring and got the book back off the shelf. Loved the movie. Started reading the book again.

Got the video. Loved it.

Saw The Two Towers. Loved it. Finished the book again. Fantastic.

Joined the Forum. Loved it.

Can't wait for RotK and the DVD's.

S'all good.

 

[ladyoflorien]

yeah home dog. thats the way it is. jus keepin' it real. wow i feel really stupid right now! oh well!

 

[The Wookie]

Reality Check

Hey NetherDemon, thanks for the reality check. Your right, the movie is great, but it's not perfect. The only poeple who could possibly hold a permanent grudge with P.J.'s movie are perfectionists and I'm not one of those. We should all realize that we are greatly priviliged to have a movie director that greatly respects Tolkien's works. The only reason that we're complaining is because we got tired of complaining about whatever we were complaining about before. I am, by the way, writing a persuasive speech at the moment on copyright laws and such. While I have come to peace with the movie, I still think that Hollywood should not have the right in the first place to buy movie rights unless they can prove that they can maintain the integrity of the original. I am still unclear to whether the changes in TTT were to draw an audience or simply shorten the film.

P.S. This is a great forum, but can we please reframe from profanity so that everyone can enjoy it as much as I have? Thank you.

 

[Feanorian]

Re: Reality Check

Well there are some more people who hold those grudges such as Christopher Tolkien he is most opposed to this movie, because it was not Tolkien's wish. His publisher sold these rights(i am not sure if Tolkien had died or not, he probably had though)if it were up to Tolkien this movie would not be made Letter #210 has been mentioned but now I will quote. this is referring to the people who wanted to make his Books into a film while he was alive "they may be irritated or aggrieved by the tone of many of my criticisms. If so, I am sorry(though not suprised). But i would ask them to make an effort of imagination sufficient to understand the irritation of an auther who finds, increasingly as he procedds his work treated as it would seem carelessly in general, in places recklessly, and with no evident signs of any aprreciation of what it is all about...." Here Tolkien refrences some changes they had written into the script including "a 'fairy castle' and a great many Eagles not to mention incantations, blue lights, and some irrelevant magic. He has cut the parts of the story upon which its characteristic and peculiar tone principally depends, showing a preference for fights(PJ PJ PJ) and he has made no serious attempt to represent the heart of the tale adequately: the journey of the Ringbearers(PJ PJ PJ). The last and most important part of this has, and it is not too strong a word, simply been murdered."

Now these quotes apply to a script written by Mr. Zimmerman( i guess the one trying to make the movie)however many of the aspects included show a similar way of misconception of the books. Tolkien says things about his work being treated carelessly, and recklessly and even goes as far as to say his works were Murdered because they changed it and put more importance on the fighting and side missions of the fellowship and not enough on the ringbearers. Peter Jackson may respect the books however if he truly respected the man he would have done enough research to realize that he never wanted his works to be adapted to these forms. I agree on the idea the rights of an artist no matter what form i.e. book, music, etc should never be sold these were the original thoughts of Tolkien and should not be changed or adapted in any other form unless it is a perfect reflection of his works.





Hey NetherDemon, thanks for the reality check. Your right, the movie is great, but it's not perfect. The only poeple who could possibly hold a permanent grudge with P.J.'s movie are perfectionists and I'm not one of those. We should all realize that we are greatly priviliged to have a movie director that greatly respects Tolkien's works. The only reason that we're complaining is because we got tired of complaining about whatever we were complaining about before. I am, by the way, writing a persuasive speech at the moment on copyright laws and such. While I have come to peace with the movie, I still think that Hollywood should not have the right in the first place to buy movie rights unless they can prove that they can maintain the integrity of the original. I am still unclear to whether the changes in TTT were to draw an audience or simply shorten the film.

 

[Feanorian]

Re: Re: Reality Check

I forgot to finish this sentence when i orignally sent it, sorry

Now these quotes apply to a script written by Mr. Zimmerman( i guess the one trying to make the movie)however many of the aspects included show a similar way of misconception of the books that is repeated in the movies we all love to hate today.

 

[Melko Belcha]

Re: Reality Check

Originally posted by The Wookie
We should all realize that we are greatly priviliged to have a movie director that greatly respects Tolkien's works.

You said it, PJ respects Tolkien's work. But as me and gondorian45 have said, PJ did not respect Tolkien himself. It is no secret that Tolkien never wanted LOTR turned into a film, and he clearly stated his beliefs of how it should be done. PJ did exactually the stuff Tolkien wished would not happen. And Tolkien sold his rights because his wife was extremely sick in the hospital and he needed money to pay for the bills.

 

[Feanorian]

Ahh, this I now remember I thought I had read that somewhere but I was not sure, but that brings up another thing that makes me angry how much money has New line cinemas, Peter jackson, etc made off these movies millions and how much of that goes to Tolkien or his family none, now you could say none should go to them cause he sold his rights but you gotta think it was this man's genious that created it and the people who reap the most off it are some movie directors that outrage Tolkien lovers and create millions of Orlando Bloom cults and fan clubs.

"And Tolkien sold his rights because his wife was extremely sick in the hospital and he needed money to pay for the bills.

"

 

[NetherDemon]

Originally posted by gondorian45
Ahh, this I now remember I thought I had read that somewhere but I was not sure, but that brings up another thing that makes me angry how much money has New line cinemas, Peter jackson, etc made off these movies millions and how much of that goes to Tolkien or his family none, now you could say none should go to them cause he sold his rights but you gotta think it was this man's genious that created it and the people who reap the most off it are some movie directors that outrage Tolkien lovers and create millions of Orlando Bloom cults and fan clubs.

"And Tolkien sold his rights because his wife was extremely sick in the hospital and he needed money to pay for the bills.

"

Surely Tolkien would have been intelligent enough to maintain atleast Royalty Rights to the movie. We're not talking 19th Century Here. I know Christopher Tolkien has written forewords for a few books about his father and surely he's getting his fair share of cash. Then there are the college lectures and speaking engagments that Christopher cashes in on on his father's expense. I don't begrudge him for that. I would too!

As for benefactors of the movie.... Sorry to sound harsh, but get over it. This is life. Life sucks. You can say the same things about great painters who got barely anything for their works during their lives, yet years after they die, people buy, sell and trade their works over and over again for TONS of money. How many painters fans are screaming about it? Most of them bought the paintings!

For the hundreds that want Tolkien's book to stay on paper, there are probably millions who wanted them converted to movies. Where was the backlash for the animated version of the Hobbitt, Return of the King or Bakshi's LOTR? There was none! Why? Because those versions were unsuccessful, therefore noone cared.

I think LOTR has transcended the author too. Much the same way Einstein's Atomic Theory led to the creation of the Atmoic Bomb, which he was totally regretfull about of when it was finally made into a bomb. Einstein was looking to make an alternative form of energy - the US government wanted to Nuke Japan!

There are no "moral rules" when it comes to literature and Movies. Hell, many people hate Tolkien for abandoning his trench during the war and going AWOL until the war ended. I don't care about that at all. I hate war. But some people refuse to accept Tolkien for just that fact.

EDIT - Man, maybe I should write some papers! Of course, I used Napster to download MP3s, so I guess my copyright respect is rather shakey...

 

[Feanorian]

Yah I know what your saying, but hey you need to get it out a little sometimes, it just hurts to watch the writings get turned into a little girl screaming about Legalos.

 

[Melko Belcha]

Hell, many people hate Tolkien for abandoning his trench during the war and going AWOL until the war ended. I don't care about that at all. I hate war. But some people refuse to accept Tolkien for just that fact.

For your information he came down with a severe case of trench fever, like many soilders during WW I, and he was hosptialised.

 

[joxy]

Originally posted by The Wookie
....we are greatly privileged to have a movie director that greatly respects Tolkien's works.

Where? Where?
And why hasn't he made films of them yet?
What a pity he didn't get the opportunity before this Jackson guy, who turned the books into
a film mix of slapstick comedy, circus tricks, sloppy romance, and swashbuckling swordfights!

 

[ladyoflorien]

this makes me so sad. is weird that i feel sad listening to people complain non stop?