Where's 🧙Radagast? Anyone?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by aragil
This is possible, Glorfindel, and it is certainly my preferred reading. However, I note that Tolkien says several different times that Gandalf was the only Istar to succeed in his job, and thus presumably the only one let back into Valinor. However, there are a lot of boats never mentioned- Cirdan is never explicitly mentioned, Celeborn is never explicitly mentioned, and whether Elladan and Elrohir went back or not is never mentioned. Personally I prefer to think they all went back together- if Radagast was also on board then that is fine with me as well.

But did the text say that failure to succeed at that task was an automatic ticket to the void? Surely, Radagast was not evil. Saruman himself admits that the Wizard was to "good" to be compromised and thus had to be deluded.

Then, too, remember that Gandalf offers redemption to Saruman, something which assumes that had he humbled himself and admitted fault and then assisted to his best ability in the war against Sauron that he would have been "forgiven" and permitted to return into the West. Yet, certainly, it could not be said that he had "succeeded" in the task he had been sent to fulfill. The best that could be said for him is that he saw his error before the end and was willing to seek forgiveness and try to make amends for the terrible damage he caused.

Under the circumstances, that puts Radagast head and shoulders above Saruman in that he never departed from the "right side", but merely became enamoured of other forms of life in Middle-earth. Yes, he "failed" in that he became distracted, but he certainly did not fail to the cataclysmic extent that Saruman failed.

 

[aragil]

I dunno MM. I still think he should have been on the boat, thus making everything explicit (and of course leaving us very little to debate).

Here's the passage on 'failure' from UT- not entirely damning, but not entiirely hopeful either:

For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.
Indeed, of all the Istari, one only remained faithful, and he was the last-comer. For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Thus he got his name (which is in the tongue of Numenor of old, and signifies, it is said, "tender of beasts"). 4 And Curunír 'Lân, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he.
...
Elsewhere is told how it was that when Sauron rose again, he also arose and partly revealed his power, and becoming the chief mover of the resistance to Sauron was at last victorious, and brought all by vigilance and labour to that end which the Valar under the One that is above them had designed. Yet it is said that in the ending of the task for which he came he suffered greatly, and was slain, and being sent back from death for a brief while was clothed then in white, and became a radiant flame (yet veiled still save in great need). And when all was over and the Shadow of Sauron was removed, he departed for ever over the Sea. Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Perhas Radagast then was "doomed" to remain in Middle-earth and be another nature spirit like Bombadil against the time of the End and the renewal of all things. When that time came, perhaps Radagast would be granted some part in the care of the "New Creation" that would arise at such time at least in honor of his faithfulness if not to his first mission, then at least to his "side" of the issue and to the beasts and living things that were also the "creations" of Iluvatar. I would prefer to think that, recreant as he undoubtedly was, since he was not evil he was not consigned to the ourter darkness.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by aragil
If Radagast was sending Eagles with news to Orthanc (and he was), then we can assume that Gandalf would have considered that as being in contact with Radagast while he and Saruman were making whatever plans.

Re. Radagast's further exploits: the Eagles played a part in the remaining War of the Ring- rescuing Gandalf from the peak and attacking Sauron's forces at the Black Gates. You could interpret this to be at the bidding of Radagast, if you like. Of course, in that case Radagast should have had a spot on that last boat to Valinor ...

I'm sure Galadriel was the one who commanded the Eagles to go and bring Gandalf the White to Lórien. I just can't seem to remember where this is stated (UT?).

 

[Grond]

No offense to all the Radagast lovers but he failed miserably in his quest. His actions in keeping Gandalf informed had more to do with Gandalf's request than Radagast having any real intent to aid in the quest which he had already fallen away from.

from The Fellowship of the Ring, The Council of Elrond
"The Nine have come forth again," I answered. "They have crossed the River. So Radagast said to me."

"Radagast the Brown! " laughed Saruman, and he no longer concealed his scorn. "Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet he had just the wit to play the part that I set him. For you have come, and that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay, Gandalf the Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"

It appears that Radagast had already become infatuated with the wild creatures of Middle-earth and had completely abandoned any plans for resistance against Sauron. That makes perfect sense too, since he was specifically sent by Yavanna, who cared mostly for her kelvar and olvar. The Ents were sent to protect the Olvar... who's to say that she didn't dispatch a Maia of her house with the primary mission of aiding the Kelvar. Make perfect sense to me. It is also evident from the professor's writings in UT that Aiwendil was already a bird lover.

from Unfinished Tales, The Istari
...The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend. 6

from Note 6 - ...Aiwendil must mean "lover of birds;" cf. Linaewen "lake of birds" in Nevrast

and this

same source
For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Thus he got his name (which is in the tongue of Numenor of old, and signifies, it is said, "tender of beasts"). 4

It sounds to me like Radagast never intended to become involved in the affairs of Men or Elves or Dwarves. He was interested in the Beasts of the Earth and for that reason, failed in the mission for which he was sent by the Valar as a whole. He may very well have succeeded in accomplishing what his mistress Yavanna had sent him for.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
I'm sure Galadriel was the one who commanded the Eagles to go and bring Gandalf the White to Lórien. I just can't seem to remember where this is stated (UT?).

Here is the quote to which I think you are referring good ithrynluin.

from The Two Towers, The White Rider
...And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.

"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need," I said.

"A burden you have been," he answered, "but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall you would float upon the wind."

"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlurien!"

"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you," he answered.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

I don't think you can "divide" Radagast's care for the creatures of Middle-earth from his resistance to Sauron. Sauron was an enemy of all life, not just sentient life. He blasted and destroyed the earth itself. His victory in Middle-earth would have been a death sentence to all living creatures except those whom Sauron would enslave for his use. Certainly that would not include most of the creatures whom Radagast protected.

While it is true that the Wizard was not overmuch concerned with the fate of the free peoples of Middle-earth, he would certainly have moved against anyone who threatened his beloved creatures so no one can say that he was on "the other side" of this conflict - and I will use the old Gospel addage, "he who is not for me is against me" as proof of that surmise.

Therefore, however imperfectly, Radagast must be considered as an enemy of the Dark Lord and probably worthy of a boat back home (albeit a leaky one!).

 

[Lantarion]

Yes I agree. Except I'm not quite sure what you mean by he would certainly have moved against anyone who threatened his beloved creatures. What do you mean by moving against? As far as Tolkien lets us understand, Radagast had no destructive 'magical' skills, and that his chief strength was in communication and understanding between wild animals who would help him if he called for them. As I understand, Aiwendil was the least potent in magical power and prowess of all the Istari; he was not helpless or inadequate, but his powers were of a different (and much more passive) sort than those of Gandalf and Saruman, who display their power in small gestures (Gandalf making fire on Caradhras) or in subtle corruption (Saruman's voice). And I believe that Saruman was capable of asserting at least some power into destructive force, eg. in fire or the like.

But I agree that Radagast was still on the 'good' side, even though he had become perhaps overly passive in his struggle against Sauron. As we see from the LotR, he did still take thought to his true quest, because he had received command from Saruman to find Gandalf in the Shire, and he did. But as for the showing of any hypothetical physical/magical force, whether against the servants of Sauron or not, does not strike me as likely.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lantarion
Yes I agree. Except I'm not quite sure what you mean by he would certainly have moved against anyone who threatened his beloved creatures. What do you mean by moving against? As far as Tolkien lets us understand, Radagast had no destructive 'magical' skills, and that his chief strength was in communication and understanding between wild animals who would help him if he called for them. As I understand, Aiwendil was the least potent in magical power and prowess of all the Istari; he was not helpless or inadequate, but his powers were of a different (and much more passive) sort than those of Gandalf and Saruman, who display their power in small gestures (Gandalf making fire on Caradhras) or in subtle corruption (Saruman's voice). And I believe that Saruman was capable of asserting at least some power into destructive force, eg. in fire or the like.

But I agree that Radagast was still on the 'good' side, even though he had become perhaps overly passive in his struggle against Sauron. As we see from the LotR, he did still take thought to his true quest, because he had received command from Saruman to find Gandalf in the Shire, and he did. But as for the showing of any hypothetical physical/magical force, whether against the servants of Sauron or not, does not strike me as likely.

I simply meant that he could not have been considered "on the other side" of the issue. Whatever he could have done under the circumstances, he would have done and that includes using his birds and animals to spy on the enemy's movements and keep the people of the north appraised thereof. Remember, even though Radagast might not have become involved with his northern neighbors - dwarf, elf and men, - that does not mean that he was unaware of the use they could be put to in his own scheme to save his creatures from the depredations of Sauron and his wicked creatures.

We, of course, have no knowledge of anything Radagast did in the war, but he was not so dense an uninvolved that he would have simply "overlooked" Sauron's plans for Middle-earth. The mere fact that he was in such a precipitous hurry to leave Gandalf and considered the fact that he had "wasted" months seeking him, indicates that Radagast did more than sit around doing a Dr. Dolittle!

 

[Eriol]

You shouldn't disregard simple communication with animals Lantarion, haven't you watched Dr. Doolittle?

Seriously, Radagast strikes me as a "backstage" sort of guy, who wouldn't move until the end was terribly near (this must have been the impression Saruman left on him by the way). Like T. Bombadil, really (who probably would have greatly enjoyed a chat with Radagast...).

Edit: It seems Mrs. Maggott got the same idea from your hint at simple communication

 

[Grond]

from Unfinished Tales, The Istari
...Indeed, of all the Istari, one only remained faithful, and he was the last-comer. For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures...

This quote would make it seem that the mission of the Istari was very specific and that in "that mission" only Gandalf remained faithful. In our world, many times when someone gives their all and fails, they still are rewarded for trying. Radagast, in the author's own words, fails to even try to complete his task on Middle-earth.

He may have still deserved a boat-ride to Valinor... he just didn't want to take it.

 

[Maeglin]

Originally posted by Grond
This quote would make it seem that the mission of the Istari was very specific and that in "that mission" only Gandalf remained faithful. In our world, many times when someone gives their all and fails, they still are rewarded for trying. Radagast, in the author's own words, fails to even try to complete his task on Middle-earth.

He may have still deserved a boat-ride to Valinor... he just didn't want to take it.

But Grond, the mission of the Istari may not have been very specific, according to this quote, same source as Grond's:

It may be seen that they were free each to do what they could in this mission; that they were not commanded or supposed to act together as a small central body of power and wisdom; and that each had different powers and inclinations and were chosen by the Valar with this in mind.

This suggests that Radagast's mission may have only been to take care of the animals at Yavanna's bidding, and not to fight against Sauron with all of his power, in which case he did not fail his mission at all. In any case, Radagast did not have enough power to defy Sauron in any great way, as we see here, from "The Council of Elrond".....

Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends.

It seems to me like knowing a lot about plants and animals wouldn't help much in a fight against Sauron, and changing hue and/or shape would only help hide you, and of course nothing could hide from the Eye of Sauron.

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
I'm sure Galadriel was the one who commanded the Eagles to go and bring Gandalf the White to Lórien. I just can't seem to remember where this is stated (UT?).

As powerful as she was, I am not under the impression that Galadriel regularly spoke with Eagles, or that she coculd summon them at her own wish. If an Eagle was in Lorien, then my assumption is that he was originally sent there by the orders of Radagast. Possibly this was a new order after picking up Gandalf.

Radagast to Gwaihir: "Hmm. Saruman had Gandalf imprisoned on the top of Orthanc, eh? Tell you what, from now on why don't you report to Galadriel instead."

Also, in the Passing of the Grey Company either Elladan or Elrohir mentions that word came to Rivendell from Lorien that Aragorn had need of his kinsmen. Perhaps Radagast was having the Eagles report to both Lorien and Rivendell.

So my defense of Radagast runs thus:
As MM has already implied, Radagast's individual mission seems a bit cloudy. He was sent to help in the struggle against Sauron, and he was sent by Yavanna. I don't think the other Valar were under any misconception as to why Yavanna insisted that Aiwendil go- implicitly they were then agreeing that if he went then the majority of his time would be spent with the olvar and the kelvar. This isn't a big deal to me- Saruman went and concerned himself with the crafts of Sauron (Aule), Alatar and Pallando went into the East (Orome). I've never been clear whether Gandalf was supposed to represent Irmo or Manwe, but he was certainly in the beginning fond of Elves, and this affinity aided him in forming a coalition against Sauro. In any case we see the Istari resisting Sauron by using their specific strengths and backgrounds (this is all supported by Glorfindel's post). For the Valar to have expected otherwise would have been ridiculous, and there is no evidence that they did so.
So the question becomes, did Radagast accomplish anything in the fight vs. Sauron? I think the answer is yes, albeit a yes based on speculation. First off, the Eagles are strongly tied to Radagast based on Gandalf's account at the Council of Elrond. There are many explanations for why the Eagles pop-up and save the day on occasion, but by far the most explicit one is the occasion where Gwaihir picks up Gandalf because he is sent by Radagast. In this case of course the main help is accidental, but it comes about because Radagast is using his affinity with animals in an attempt to help the Free Peoples fight Sauron. Yes he is enamored with animals, but I don't see this affecting his job, at least not in this case. If we assume that all the appearance of the Eagles are Radagast's only contribution to the struggle, then he still plays a significant role. We can probably make further assumptions- there is no reason to beleive that Radagast wasn't part of the White Council, therefore he probably had some part in driving Sauron out of Mirkwood. Also, we can assume that Radagast choosing a house so near Dol Guldur was no accident. MM mentions Sauron's domination of some of the animals- shirley the Spiders of Mirkwood were one such example. Who is to say that Radagast wasn't instrumental in keeping them in Mirkwood and relatively under control? Beorn certainly has a high opinion of him (as high an opinion as he is likely to acknowledge, given his gruffness)- perhaps it is because of aid which Radagast has given him in the past.
Again, I don't see Radagast as having fallen from the quest. He demonstrably helped in the way in which he was capable, if in nothing else then in getting Gandalf off of Orthanc. No, he did not use overt magics, but after all the Valar had forbade the Istari to influence events through use of their own innate power. Yes, he was less of a player than Gandalf, but succeeding to a lesser degree is not the same thing as failing. Indeed, other than JRRT's statement that Radagast "became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth" I don't see any evidence that Radagast failed at all. Indeed, I see the opposite- there is evidence that Radagast was helping the fight against Sauron, in however a subtle or implicit way.

 

[Grond]

Aragil,

Seven posts above your last one, I specifically quoted Gwaihir saying in the text from The Two Towers, The White Rider
"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you," he answered.

I would also like your comments on my first post which is eight posts above your last one where I make my case as to why Radagast was a failure.

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by aragil
As powerful as she was, I am not under the impression that Galadriel regularly spoke with Eagles, or that she could summon them at her own wish. If an Eagle was in Lorien, then my assumption is that he was originally sent there by the orders of Radagast. Possibly this was a new order after picking up Gandalf.

Radagast to Gwaihir: "Hmm. Saruman had Gandalf imprisoned on the top of Orthanc, eh? Tell you what, from now on why don't you report to Galadriel instead."

Grond- this part was meant to reply to your post about Galadriel. Yes Gwaihir was sent from Lorien to get Gandalf, but what was he doing in Lorien in the first place?

Re. your post about his failing- again, I don't think the other Valar were deluded by Yavanna. They knew that if she was sending along an Istar, then his concern would be the plants and trees. I view Tolkien's statement from UT to be in a sense contrasting Gandalf against the other four. Tolkien liked Gandalf, he wanted him to seem unique in his ability to not 'fail'. Radagast was not a large enough part of the books to be worth saving (My take on the professor's thoughts). However, what we see in both Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit seems to indicate that Radagast was helping in the fight against Sauron, and he was doing so in a manner appropriate to his origin as one of Yavanna's people (just like the other four Istari opposed Sauron in a manner commensurate with their respective Vala). I believe that Tolkien's statement about Radagast is inconsistent with his other statements from Lord of the Rings. Being an admitted Radagast lover, I'll choose to side with him on this particular inconsistency.
Hope this satisfies.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

I like the old boy. As an animal lover (in the summer my neighbors wonder what I'm doing when I walk the dog early in the morning and spend time bending over puddles in the road - I'm saving earthworms, that's what!) R. get's my vote. Of course, given that Saruman was able to deceive him so readily, it may well be that it was all for the best that he didn't get involved in intricate plans and machinations. He might have put his foot in it!

However, if he was faithful to "his" Vala, then he had nothing to worry about as far as being exiled to the void in the end. If there was blame, then the blame was his superior's, not his.

 

[Grond]

MM, actuarlly, I'm prone to agree with both your and my good friend Aragil's last post. Yavanna's interests on Earth were definately different than most of her fellow Vala. As for Radagast being so easily fooled by Saruman, let us not forget that Gandalf, too, was duped and Saruman retained his silver-tongue to the end.

Thanks for your reply and also for yours Aragil. I just wanted to make sure someone was paying attention to me.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Grond
MM, actuarlly, I'm prone to agree with both your and my good friend Aragil's last post. Yavanna's interests on Earth were definately different than most of her fellow Vala. As for Radagast being so easily fooled by Saruman, let us not forget that Gandalf, too, was duped and Saruman retained his silver-tongue to the end.

Thanks for your reply and also for yours Aragil. I just wanted to make sure someone was paying attention to me.

My dear Grond! How can you even ask the question? Would someone ignore a great light unless blind? I don't believe anyone in our Guild would "ignore" anyone else if for no other reason than one of "ordinary" courtesy (although that virtue can no longer be considered "ordinary" by any stretch of the imagination!).

P.S. I don't think that Gandalf was as much fooled by Saruman as he allowed himself to be misled because he was hearing what he wanted to hear - soothing words which made him less anxious about the hobbit's ring.

There is no greater delusion in the world than self-delusion. Gandalf didn't want Bilbo's ring to be problematic first, because he had no right to demand that the hobbit do anything about the ring since it belonged (in the ordinary understanding of that word) to the hobbit and not the Wizard. Secondly, if the ring were problematic (and I don't doubt for a moment that had Gandalf been honest with himself, all those years of chasing around would not have been necessary!) what on earth was the Wizard going to do about it. The fact that he never mentioned the Ring to Saruman leads me at least to believe that he was not nearly so trusting of that individual as he wanted to be. So, Gandalf finds himself in a conundrum that he chooses to address like so many other people do in similar situations - hoping that if you ignore it, it will go away.

This failure to follow up on his own "sneaking suspicions" about the hobbit's ring is one of Gandalf's great failings - indeed, perhaps his only failing in the matter. But he was steering a very difficult course among many obstacles, distrust of his "superior" being not the least. (And besides, what sort of story would it have made if the whole thing had been over while Sauron was still gathering his scattered forces!)

 

[aragil]

(posted a little late- in reference to earlier post by Mrs. Maggot)

Actually MM, I'm beginning to wonder if even Saruman's spirit was denied final return to Valinor. Here are three bits to me which suggest otherwise:

From The Scouring of the Shire
To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

From UT, The Istari
For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.
...
Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.

Could Saruman's spirit have been doomed to return to Valinor? I guess the void is also a viable option, but I think there is a possibility that Saruman was to return to Valinor, if only to sit in the Halls of Mandos.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by aragil
(posted a little late- in reference to earlier post by Mrs. Maggot)

Actually MM, I'm beginning to wonder if even Saruman's spirit was denied final return to Valinor. Here are three bits to me which suggest otherwise:
Could Saruman's spirit have been doomed to return to Valinor? I guess the void is also a viable option, but I think there is a possibility that Saruman was to return to Valinor, if only to sit in the Halls of Mandos.

One wonders a great deal about Saruman. When he reaches the Grey Havens, his spirit is such that Cirdan gives the elven ring not to him as the most powerful, but to Gandalf as the most trustworthy. I am not learned about the Valar who sent the various Wizards (I just rather assumed that they had been "sent" by the collective, so to speak), but if each was sent by a different Vala, then perhaps it would do well to know what Saruman's instructions were that may have differed as much from Gandalf's as did Radagast.

We know that Sauron was less blameworthy than his Master, Melkor. It may be that not all of Saruman's failings are solely his.