which is better? Children of hurin or The silmarillion?

[thattolkienlady]

I voted for the Children of Hùrin because it was more approachable and readable for me. But that is not because I think that the Silmarillion is not a worthwhile read. I loved it. I just think that CoH would be a good initiation into the larger framework of Middle Earth for somebody who has only read the Lord of the Rings. I think so, not only because Christopher Tolkien says so in his forward to the book, but also because I found it a much easier read than the Silmarillion, and because it is smaller in scope, it is a good test for if you would have the patience to delve into the deeper stuff or if you would prefer to remain a Hobbit/LotR only kind of fan.

I agree-I first read LoTR, then, CoH, simply because my husband gifted it to me, having come across it at a secondhand bookshop. CoH cemented my love for Tolkien's storytelling and Middle earth history-particularly that of the First Age. Because I so enjoyed CoH, I then went on to the Silmarillion, and continue to study the history of not only Middle earth, but Tolkien's process in bringing it to life.

I also didn’t vote, as I also do not think they can be compared.

But now I’m going to throw you (or some of you) a curve ball.

Túrin, respectively his deep roots, may very well be one of the deciding germs that led JRRT to write about Middle-earth at all, as Verlyn Flieger shows (or tries to, but successfully, in my opinion) in her 2015 edited version of JRRT’s “The Story of Kullervo”. This is the oldest writing bar none of anything to do with his later legendarium, having been written between 1912 (JRRT’s own – uncertain – estimate) and at the very latest 2014, so while he was still a student at Oxford, before he married Edith, entered the Army, or served at the Battle of the Somme (2016) and never mind his return from France and Edith’s dancing for him, which led to “Beren and Lúthien”.

The connection between a story about Kullervo, contained in Finland’s “National Epic” The Kalevala, itself only a compilation from about the mid-19th century, and the story of Túrin, had been noted several times. That JRRT actually tried his hand at an adaptation of this original story seems to be something of more recent knowledge. And this version of JRRT’s is very much an intermediate stage (not necessarily at midpoint) between Kalevala and Túrin. To exaggerate in both directions, the Kalevala Kullervo might have been slapped with an X rating, while JRRT’s smoothed version would have been closer to an R rating, and by comparison Túrin is almost PG-13. As with much of JRRT’s writing, like when comparing “Lost Tales” to the published “Silmarillion”, many details have changed, but many central fundamentals remain unchanged. Perhaps that is why “The Children of Húrin” of 2007 (besides TH and LoTR the only other book I also have in a German translation) is so far more in a finished state than the two later books on the “big three” stories of the Sil, “Beren and Lúthien” (2017) and “The Fall of Gondolin” (2018). The story had been in the most extensive and finished form even in the “Narn I Hîn Húrin”, covering, with notes and appendix, more than 100 pages in “Unfinished Tales”.

And last, the ending of the tale, with Húrin and Morwen meeting at Túrin’s gravestone, and her dying in his arms at sunset, is to me the most moving thing JRRT ever wrote.

I agree- there is no comparison. Two completely different works. (I cried when reading the end of CoH. No one could capture that emotion, in my opinion, quite the way Tolkien could.)

I did not vote, as I feel there is no way to compare the two. BUT, I will say that, having read CoH BEFORE The Silmarillion, I kept waiting in vain for some bright spot in the midst of all the misery. In the Silmarillion, at least we see the defeat of Morgoth at long last, reminding us, as Sam Gamgee realized in Mordor :"in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."

 

[Olorgando]

… I kept waiting in vain for some bright spot in the midst of all the misery. ...

No, CoH (or chapter 21 0f the "Quenta Silmarillion" of the published Sil) is the unmitigated tragedy of JRRT's works.
A tragedy of (misplaced) pride, basically. And it starts with Túrin's mother Morwen (of the First House of the Edain, descended from Bëor the Old, first human Finrod spoke to after having been the first Noldorin Elf to meet humans, Bëor also being an ancestor of Beren). Against Húrin's command in case of disaster (as the Battle of Unnumbered Tears turned out to be) "Go swiftly! Do not wait for me!", she (in part) decided not to do so because "... she would not yet humble her pride to be an alms-guest, not even of a king [Thingol!]". (All this on page 70 of my HarperCollins hardback edition of the 2007 "Children of Húrin"). Túrin proved (in JRRT's "genetics") to be far more his mother's son than his father's, who together with his brother Huor was descended from the Second and Third Houses of the Edain (Hour's wife Rían was a first cousin of Morwen's, so also First House). And especially the totally divergent life stories of the (multiple cousins) Túrin and Tuor add a sharpness to Túrin's failings.
Though in isolated (and late?) writings JRRT gives Túrin ultimate satisfaction in being the one, in the "Dagor Dagorath" or Battle of Battles, from the Second Prophecy of Mandos, when Melkor manages to return from the Void for the last battle, taking place on the plains of Valinor, and even Manwë taking part (!!!), to "... deal the death-stroke and slay evil [Melkor] for ever. A couple of years in the future even now, I'd guess.

 

[Olorgando]

Looking back on musings in other threads, I find a hypothesis about what a "Final Silmarillion" satisfactory to JRRT might have looked like creeping to the surface; which might then have been named "Silmaringlion" (ouch! that hurt when I typed it; let's call it a "working title").
For the three Great Tales of the published Sil, JRRT had done some quite detailed "background" writing, be it lays or prose: Beren and Lúthien, The Children of Húrin, The Fall of Gondolin. The SilRing would have contained summaries of these three Great Tales, as well as of LoTR. Add to that a couple of tales from the Númenor Cycle - Aldarion and Erendis, for example, from UT, when Númenóreans first started exploring Middle-earth in earnest, and something about the first War of the Rings, and the run-up to it, taking place during the 200 years between 1500 and 1701 Second Age. And maybe something about the Ar-Pharazôn mess too.
Gets me back to one of my old sighs "had JRRT been given the life-span of Elros …" 🥴

 

[Alcuin]

A tragedy of (misplaced) pride, basically. And it starts with Túrin's mother Morwen ... because "... she would not yet humble her pride to be an alms-guest, not even of a king [Thingol!]". ... Túrin proved ... to be ... more his mother's son than his father's... And especially the totally divergent life stories of the (multiple cousins) Túrin and Tuor add a sharpness to Túrin's failings. ...

I had never considered pride as the tragic flaw in Túrin’s character. Tolkien repeats over and over that his ruin was due to the especial hatred and malice of Morgoth; but pride certainly contributed to it!

It was pride that was (mostly) absent in Tuor, who could and would humble himself: he was (as someone pointed out here on TTF or another forum) the only Man ever to physically see a Vala in Middle-earth: Ulmo, who addressed him directly at Nevrast. (Eärendil, his son, and Elwing later met all the Valar; but they were Peredhil, and their meeting was in Valinor.) Perhaps Ulmo’s particular interest in Tuor, along with his humility, were contributing factors to his fate becoming changed to that of the Eldar instead of among Men.

Túrin’s pride, however, led him to overestimate his prowess at Nargothrond, first in building the fatal bridge across the Narog, then in lifting the Dragon Helm of Dor-lómin so that Glaurung might enchant him rather than his slaying Glaurung, as he should have done then and there. Later, it was pride that led him to displace his cousin Brandir the Lame as Haladin and claim Niënor as wife, slay Brandir, and finally commit suicide.

Pride, according to Catholic tradition, is why Lucifer rebelled and fell; and pride is what led Adam and Eve to disobey in the Garden of Eden. “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” (Proverbs 16:18)

 

[Olorgando]

…..
Pride, according to Catholic tradition, is why Lucifer rebelled and fell; and pride is what led Adam and Eve to disobey in the Garden of Eden. “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” (Proverbs 16:18)

And is one of the seven deadly sins, according to Christian teaching: pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth (coming first in the list, apparently, and rightly so, as with the silver medalist). And again, something not limited to Christian beliefs. Certainly Buddhism, being the religion of equanimity (I realize I'm using awful shorthand here) would regard all seven of them as being seriously detrimental to getting anywhere near nirvana. Stoic philosophy would also agree. And many other belief systems.
And then just think of the news every day. Especially, but not limited to, politicians, most of business (especially finance), the media, they all seem to be participating in a mindless race to rack up the highest possible score in breaking the prohibitions usually pronounced against these massive human failings.
That camel passing through the eye of a needle (one of the many mistranslations into our modern languages, not camel, hawser, or thick rope used in seafaring) is starting to look like a solvable problem against what these people would be facing (blue whale through a quantum physics wormhole?).

 

[Miguel]

(as someone pointed out here on TTF or another forum) the only Man ever to physically see a Vala in Middle-earth

Húrin and Beren did also saw one up-close.

 

[Alcuin]

Húrin and Beren did also saw one up-close.

That’s true. Nice catch!

 

[Olorgando]

Húrin and Beren did also saw one up-close.

That’s true. Nice catch!

Nitpicking time!
Valaquenta "Of the Valar", at the beginning:
"The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, are seven also. These were their names in the Elvish tongue that was spoken in Valinor, though they have other names in the speech of the Elves of Middle-earth, and their names among Men are manifold. The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa. Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth."
and at the end:
"Among them Nine were of chief power and reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwë and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë.
I rest my case.

 

[Gothmog]

Nitpicking time!
Valaquenta "Of the Valar", at the beginning:
"The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, are seven also. These were their names in the Elvish tongue that was spoken in Valinor, though they have other names in the speech of the Elves of Middle-earth, and their names among Men are manifold. The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa. Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth."
and at the end:
"Among them Nine were of chief power and reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwë and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë.
I rest my case.

Nitpicking the Nitpick
At what point in time did Melkor cease to be counted among the Valar? It is certain that Feanor and the Noldor considered him to be Valar at the time of their rebellion.

 

[Olorgando]

Nitpicking the Nitpick
At what point in time did Melkor cease to be counted among the Valar? It is certain that Feanor and the Noldor considered him to be Valar at the time of their rebellion.

Nitpicking the author, really. JRRT's statement is absolutely clear, but he does not explicitly provide a "when".
My best guess would be when he stopped being called Melkor and started being called Morgoth (again, no date in the calendar about when that happened, either).
With Manwë's pardon after those three Valian Ages spent in the Halls of Mandos during his captivity, one might consider Melkor a Valar in good standing, if on probation.
But with the destruction of the Two Trees, the murder of Finwë and theft of the Silmarils, and escape from Valinor, I would guess that was when Melkor "got the boot".

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Pride, according to Catholic tradition, is why Lucifer rebelled and fell; and pride is what led Adam and Eve to disobey in the Garden of Eden. “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” (Proverbs 16:18)

Exactly!


CL

 

[Gothmog]

Nitpicking the author, really. JRRT's statement is absolutely clear, but he does not explicitly provide a "when".
My best guess would be when he stopped being called Melkor and started being called Morgoth (again, no date in the calendar about when that happened, either).
With Manwë's pardon after those three Valian Ages spent in the Halls of Mandos during his captivity, one might consider Melkor a Valar in good standing, if on probation.
But with the destruction of the Two Trees, the murder of Finwë and theft of the Silmarils, and escape from Valinor, I would guess that was when Melkor "got the boot".

Not necessarily, After the destruction of the Trees and theft of the Silmarilli we have this:

But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'

So it is at some point in time after this and I would say it would be the time where Melkor is removed from Arda after the War of Wrath.

 

[Miguel]

Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth

Chapter 7:

'For am I not Vala also? Yea, and more than those who sit in pride in Valimar

 

[Olorgando]

So it is at some point in time after this and I would say it would be the time where Melkor is removed from Arda after the War of Wrath.

In the sense that the Valar (and Maiar) were those of the Ainur who entered Arda, then Melkor being removed from Arda would kind of be a formal revocation of his status as Vala, yes.
One could also still consider Satan / Lucifer and angel (and probably he was an archangel, too, as per that mythology), if a fallen one. But I prefer the term devil (German "Teufel", lots of "cousins" of "devil" to be found in the romance languages, all starting with d), very much so in the opposition between angels and devils.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

In the sense that the Valar (and Maiar) were those of the Ainur who entered Arda, then Melkor being removed from Arda would kind of be a formal revocation of his status as Vala, yes.
One could also still consider Satan / Lucifer and angel (and probably he was an archangel, too, as per that mythology), if a fallen one. But I prefer the term devil (German "Teufel", lots of "cousins" of "devil" to be found in the romance languages, all starting with d), very much so in the opposition between angels and devils.

Seraphim, actually.



CL

 

[Olorgando]

Seraphim, actually.

Just checked out the Wikipedia page "Christian angelology", and was that ever an eye-opener.
Tree "Spheres" with three "members" each, Seraphim at the top of the first "Sphere", Archangels at number two in the third "Sphere" or eighth overall - or from another perspective second from the bottom.
Okay, some things have definitely gotten muddled when Christianity decided to keep the Old Testament, so I figured I'd go to the authentic source.
Wikipedia page "Angels in Judaism".
Oh dear, oh dear …
It lists five different hierarchies of angels, each containing 10 terms. The term "Malakim" seems to be what what "we" consider Archangels (Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael, from the Talmud).
I'll just list "Malakim" and "Seraphim" in the places they are given in each list:

1. Maimonides: Seraphim 5, Malakim 6
2. Zohar (Exodus 43a(!)): Malakim 1, Seraphim 3
3. Maseket Atzilut: Seraphim 1, Malakim 8
4. Berit Menuchah: Malakim 4, Seraphim 10
5. Reshit Chochmah: Seraphim 3, Malakim 9

Gives an average score of 4.4 for Seraphim, 5.6 for Malakim
Seraphim ahead of Malakim in three lists to two
Seraphim in the top 5 four times, Malakim twice
Both once topped a list (but shouldn't Exodus trump other lists?)
And Seraphim once barely made the top ten, in last place, while Malakim never dropped below 9 (but once also placed at 8)

Seems like going to theologians for advice is as helpful as asking Elves for advice in Middle-earth.
(Nascent conspiracy theory: are theologians really Elves?!?)

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Okay, some things have definitely gotten muddled when Christianity decided to keep the Old Testament, so I figured I'd go to the authentic source.

Well, Christ did say He came to fulfill the law, not do away with it. But we're getting far OT. XD XD



CL

 

[Olorgando]

Well, Christ did say He came to fulfill the law, not do away with it.

But he also said that "the Sabbath is there for the people, not the people for the Sabbath" (my imperfect translation from the German quote).

But we're getting far OT. XD XD

In terms of "Silmarillion" (1977) and "Children of Húrin" (2007) as per the thread title, my above post was deep in HoMe territory …

 

[Gothmog]

Well, Christ did say He came to fulfill the law, not do away with it. But we're getting far OT. XD XD

CL

Or at least that is what we are told by umm. Someone. But, to keep this on topic Tolkien refers to the Ainur as "Angelic" not "Angels". While he puts them on the same level as Angels of Judao/Christian beliefs they are not actually the same beings.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

But he also said that "the Sabbath is there for the people, not the people for the Sabbath" (my imperfect translation from the German quote).

In terms of "Silmarillion" (1977) and "Children of Húrin" (2007) as per the thread title, my above post was deep in HoMe territory …

Touche.



CL