Which Middle-earth character has seen the most wars?

[m4r35n357]

The Ambarussa Brothers

Feanor's son who died at Losgar:

Mother-name is Ambarussa -- which would yield Amros in Sindarin. Feanor asked Nerdanel to give him a different name, so she said Umbarto -- but Feanor changed this to Ambarto (or "in some versions" he thought Nerdanel has said Ambarto) -- and had Ambarto lived, this name would probably have been Sindarized as Amrod -- but he did not live -- and so Umbarto appeared to be the correct form, and thus if a name for him was encountered in Sindarin it was Amarthan "Fated One".

The twins called each other Ambarussa, but others called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa "First-russa" and "Second russa."

And I assume his Father-name was Telufinwe "Last Finwe" given the meaning.

And I cannot ask Tolkien to give up this amazing naming scenario

Believe me, I don't have a problem with any of that!

 

[Olorgando]

And I cannot ask Tolkien to give up this amazing naming scenario

I can - with the greatest of ease.😝

 

[Elthir]

It's one of the best naming-scenarios in sub-created worlds and our primary world.

And Ando Endorfin agrees with me

 

[Olorgando]

It's one of the best naming-scenarios in sub-created worlds and our primary world.

Hey , if you enjoy such scenarios, fine.

For me, my usual reaction tends more towards 😩😩😩

 

[m4r35n357]

Hey , if you enjoy such scenarios, fine.

For me, my usual reaction tends more towards 😩😩😩

I tend to be open to the more recent writings (as well as much older, like the Chaining of Melko, the Lay of Leithian) where they do not openly contradict or unbalance the "canon" (also a personal choice!). I really like Athrabeth and The Wanderings of Hurin, but have never read "Laws & Customs (yawn)", and probably never will!

Myths Transformed is a bit of a downer too. The dusk of the Perilous Realm.

I am OK with one of the Sons being burned on the ship, for the reason I gave earlier, but also because the twins (I call them Damrod & Diriel) never did anything individual anyway! It all adds to the tragedy of Feanor.

 

[Olorgando]

There's no question that @Elthir is more into the languages (a lot more) than I am. While I know of the importance of the language creation within the writing of JRRT's legendarium, he also dealt with them professionally, as everyone knows. And was good at it, very good, by all accounts. So it takes him a line and a half at most to lose me, leave me befuddled and uncomprehending, Christopher and specifically Tom Shippey were (are) also philologists, so there's this danger in their writing, too. To take up the OP slightly, in my battles with the languages I am invariably defeated badly! 🥴

Just as a trivia morsel: while I bought that 2002 three-volume hardback edition of LoTR illustrated by Alan Lee because my mid-1980's pocketbooks were falling apart (The Two Towers is in the worst shape), that Appendix E is almost as good as new. There are such sections in some books of HoMe that I also skim over at best, or more likely skip. I always have the feeling that I'm lacking several semesters of philology study to be able to follow.

As to JRRT's use of hyperbole that @1stvermont mentions, I don't care too much about it in any of the Ages JRRT writes about - at least when he uses it as narrator. Saruman's harangue at Gandalf at Isengard after the Ents had driven him into Orthanc is another case, here quite fitting (this was just before Gandalf broke Saruman's staff and cast him from the White Council). In Home, it is noticeable that most of the hyperbole seems to be in the two "Book of Lost Tales" volumes, and it shows in the published "Silmarillion" when Christopher had to integrate old stuff that his father might not have touched for decades. And there's very likely a difference of opinion (gasp! 😱 ) about what exactly constitutes hyperbole ...

 

[m4r35n357]

But here I ask me: why mention this in the context of little is known . . . I mean no offense to Quenta Silmarillion writers, but who cares (that much). Sure one could argue that it might be a chance for some poetic description, but isn't the headline here the War?

I've thought of a reason

Perhaps it is Pengolod being polite to his "monastic" brethren for the record, sort of like a euphemism for "pretty much everything the Vanyar have done up to now is pretty uninteresting, and even this is just a march, but read on . . .".

Worth a shot. Now I think I have addressed all the points that I wanted to in your very involved post!

 

[Elthir]

You're going with "polite Pengoloð"?

At least it alliterates but I feel better about my question at the moment

 

[m4r35n357]

You're going with "polite Pengoloð"?

At least it alliterates but I feel better about my question at the moment

Nah, it is a nice thought, but I am going to have to fall back on my previous answer; the meaning of the words and their order

Some of that meaning is coloured by omission in the published version (in QS the summons of (all) Elves and Men to join the Host happens after the landing of Fionwe, which happens after the march to the North). In the published Silmarillion references to both the landing and the summons are absent, confusing the meaning IMO. AB2 expands and clarifies that sequence a great deal.

The phrase "Of the march . . . little is said" is a bit of a throw-away in both cases, but the scope of its meaning in the two cases is different because of that compression.

While I am here, @Olorgando says you are a linguist, in which case you should be able to have a stab at the riddle of my handle

 

[m4r35n357]

I'd like to think more on this in any case, but for now my response circles round Tolkien's choice of suffered . . . as if to say, you have suffered and lost so many already . . . take the "day" off . . .

This interpretation would carry far more weight if he had extended the same "courtesy" to the remnants of the Edain!

 

[Elthir]

This interpretation would carry far more weight if he had extended the same "courtesy" to the remnants of the Edain!

I think they were included, given The Tale of Years (WJ) version A: 540: "The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle Balar."

[547 The host of the Valar come out of the West and land in Beleriand.]

[edit: re-reading this I seem to mean: if we (or if Christopher Tolkien) only use(d) this very brief source as "the" source for "including" Men in a theoretical revision -- which admittedly would be very limiting, and very conservative! And admittedly not that likely in my opinion!]

 

[m4r35n357]

I think they were included, given The Tale of Years (WJ) version A: 540: "The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle Balar."

They were not given the "day off", that is what I mean by "courtesy".

"All that were left of the three houses . . . fought . . . and were avenged . . .", whlie the defeated Elves put their feet up? This requires some justification IMO.

 

[Elthir]

"All that were left of the three houses . . . fought . . . and were avenged . . .", whlie the defeated Elves put their feet up? This requires some justification IMO.

If we are going to take this pre-Lord of the Rings version of the end of QS as updated in full (again noting Christopher Tolkien's warning about doing that, simply due to some later cursory corrections) . . .

then . . .

. . . I note that the Elves are "immortal" while Men are not, and those Men living at the time of the War of Wrath were not those who had suffered for centuries, so indeed we find: " . . . avenged upon the orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Gumlin and Gundor, Huor and Hurin".

🐾

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

If we are going to take this pre-Lord of the Rings version of the end of QS as updated in full (again noting Christopher Tolkien's warning about doing that, simply due to some later cursory corrections) . . .

then . . .

. . . I note that the Elves are "immortal" while Men are not, and those Men living at the time of the War of Wrath were not those who had suffered for centuries, so indeed we find: " . . . avenged upon the orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Gumlin and Gundor, Huor and Hurin".

🐾

I beg your pardon, did you take skirmishes level conflicts into account? Remember this, Morgoth had truly launched numerous military conflicts in skirmishes style, such as sending Ulfang's battle group to plunder Hador.

 

[Elthir]

I beg your pardon, did you take skirmishes level conflicts into account? Remember this, Morgoth had truly launched numerous military conflicts in skirmishes style, such as sending Ulfang's battle group to plunder Hador.

What does this have to do with Men not living for centuries, while Elves do?

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

What does this have to do with Men not living for centuries, while Elves do?

Then you have to make sure these skirmishes were shorter than centuries. XD
I am pretty sure at least the skirmishes against the Hador never stop.

 

[Elthir]

Then you have to make sure these skirmishes were shorter than centuries. XD
I am pretty sure at least the skirmishes against the Hador never stop.

If I was unclear earlier, the point is/was supposed to be: the Men living at the time of the Wrathy War had not been (themselves) fighting Morgoth for centuries.

They can't have been, because they're Men

 

[m4r35n357]

If we are going to take this pre-Lord of the Rings version of the end of QS as updated in full (again noting Christopher Tolkien's warning about doing that, simply due to some later cursory corrections) . . .

then . . .

. . . I note that the Elves are "immortal" while Men are not, and those Men living at the time of the War of Wrath were not those who had suffered for centuries, so indeed we find: " . . . avenged upon the orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Gumlin and Gundor, Huor and Hurin".

🐾

My carefully-edited "quote" regarding the Edain that you are answering (#52) is designed to match both versions, so no "if" required, no warnings needed!

As to the rest, I see you basically give the reason: "save the Elves and throw the mortals on the fire". Historical Valar behaviour, so at least plausible!

However I remain with my literal "all Elves & Men summons" reading (based on the QS text before the summons was inexplicably removed, and not by JRRT!). There is no mention of this removal in the comments to $15-16 in HoME 5. A strange edit indeed!

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

If I was unclear earlier, the point is/was supposed to be: the Men living at the time of the Wrathy War had not been (themselves) fighting Morgoth for centuries....

They can't have been, because they're Men

They can, my dear. Had Melkor ever stopped any of his skirmishes against any Free People?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Perhaps it would help, if you could name a few of the individual men who lived long enough to do this.