Turin_Turambar
Mormegil
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2021
- Messages
- 532
But men like Aragorn Isildur Turin Hurin Elendil are much stronger than Elves. These men were the best warriors of their time.However one wants to apply this statement (Annals of Aman, 5, 163), it refers specifically to the harsh journey in the north after being abandoned by Feanor, and includes a reference to the Blessed Realm: "And he [Fingolfin] and his host wandered long and wretchedly; but their valour and endurance grew greater with hardship; for they were yet a mighty folk, the elder children undying of Eru Iluvatar, but new come from the Blessed Realm, and not yet weary with the weariness of earth."
It's not certain (to me anyway) that this reference is a comparison to the Noldor or the Eldar . . .
. . . but in any case, this description hails from the early 1950s, and is part of a longer textual history wherein Tolkien describes the houses of the Edain (plus certain references to Elves), including both earlier and later versions.
. . . and in both 1958 (the Later Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men) and 1968 (Of Dwarves And Men) the later versions no longer contain this statement.
_____
Anyway, in Author's note 5, to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth: "They [the Elves] were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods."
So whatever else one wants to put forward, it would appear that in these things, at least, Elves outdo Men.
Actually, had there been only Orcs and Balrogs, the assault on Gondolin would very probably have failed. The decisive factor were those mysterious "dragons" (were they alive? were they devilish machines? were they early "cyborgs"?) to breach the walls, or at least the gates of Gondolin. Otherwise the Orcs and Balrogs could have wasted themselves on futile attacks against the fortifications, with the remnants being mopped up by a sally of the defenders.
I forget where the one detailed description of the battle is in HoMe, but they put up massive resistance. Having their defenses breached by those "dragons" was the decisive blow.... they were caught by surprise, so put up little resistance. ...
Actually, I'm one of those who want the book not to be changed. But I think Peter Jackson changed the movie to fill it with much more war and effects. From this perspective, I think it's good because it's enjoyable to watch.If jackson hadn't changed the books so much, maybe even the silmarillion would have made movies.I love both movies and books. But I do agree with Olorgando here [sorry that is a cause of boldness and bigness, he would understand] that Tolkiens books are on this forum and section the authority as to what actually took place. Jackson was making a movie fun to watch and tended to exaggerate, just as he would if he made a Silmarillion movie.
That's a different matter. The wider campaign would include the attacks on Lothlórien, Thranduil's realm, and Dale and Erebor. The Ents' second intervention, destroying the forces sent to block the Rohirrim, which is why the latter needed the aid of Ghân-buri-Ghân and his Woses to circumvent this force, which then could have wreaked havoc in Rohan. Did I forget anything? Did the Beornings have to fight anybody?
But that's not the question of the poll. The three battles of Beleriand were just that. There was very little siege at Gondolin, a classical siege can last months, but this was over in a day.
That is why I also question the term "siege of Gondor". The only siege, also a very short one, was at Minas Tirith. The Corsairs had taken Pelargir, to be routed by Aragorn and the Army of the Dead Men of Dunharrow. But the (temporarily) decisive battle, comparable to the three in Beleriand, took place at the Pelennor Fields. And I firmly place that a distant last of the four options.
Fingolfin would have mopped the floor with the lot of them.
However one wants to apply this statement (Annals of Aman, 5, 163), it refers specifically to the harsh journey in the north after being abandoned by Feanor, and includes a reference to the Blessed Realm: "And he [Fingolfin] and his host wandered long and wretchedly; but their valour and endurance grew greater with hardship; for they were yet a mighty folk, the elder children undying of Eru Iluvatar, but new come from the Blessed Realm, and not yet weary with the weariness of earth."
It's not certain (to me anyway) that this reference is a comparison to the Noldor or the Eldar . . .
. . . but in any case, this description hails from the early 1950s, and is part of a longer textual history wherein Tolkien describes the houses of the Edain (plus certain references to Elves), including both earlier and later versions . . .
. . . and in 1958 (the Later Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men) and 1968 (Of Dwarves And Men), these later versions no longer contain this statement.
_____
Anyway, in Author's note 5, to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth: "They [the Elves] were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods."
So whatever else one wants to put forward, it would appear that in these things, at least, Elves outdo Men.
Not sure what your arguing? . . .
I disagree with you. Aragorn surpassed glorfindel in the use of the sword. There are writings about it. And Aragorn rushed forward with Boromir against Durins Bane, who was stronger than all the Balrogs except Gothmog. If Gandalf had not destroyed the bridge, he would have fought the Balrog. I think the sons of Fingolfin cannot defeat Aragorn at all. He fought in 6 battles. The sons of Fingolfin have not fought so many battles. Aragorn has so much battle experience. He has spent his life fighting in the wild. And Aragorn single-handedly entered the uruk-hai, who was stronger than the 3rd age elves, and slew them all unscathed in amon hen. I think only fingolfin can beat Aragorn.Fingolfin would have mopped the floor with the lot of them.His sons Fingon and Turgon, too, probably.
And I doubt that Aragorn had much of a chance against Elladan and Elrohir, who had thousands of years of experience hunting Orcs.
And (returned) Glorfindel in LoTR scared the willies out of the Nazgûl, against whom of men at best Aragorn would not have fled in terror.
In Gondolin, he also took down a Balrog.
The greatest warriors of men might match an Elven warrior (not the greatest of the Elven warriors), but on the whole men were hardly a match for Elves.
Actually, had there been only Orcs and Balrogs, the assault on Gondolin would very probably have failed. The decisive factor were those mysterious "dragons" (were they alive? were they devilish machines? were they early "cyborgs"?) to breach the walls, or at least the gates of Gondolin. Otherwise the Orcs and Balrogs could have wasted themselves on futile attacks against the fortifications, with the remnants being mopped up by a sally of the defenders.
I forget where the one detailed description of the battle is in HoMe, but they put up massive resistance. Having their defenses breached by those "dragons" was the decisive blow.
I do disagree with the second statement. Care to elaborate?
Elthir may not want to push this statement as far as I do. But I note that this is about Elves in general, not just the Noldor returned from Aman. I would rate these even higher than Elves in general. No, I have always viewed the Elves as being superior to men in practically every aspect after having read my way through my JRRT library. I'll post this now and go hunt for a quote (I'm guessing "Letters") about Legolas compared to the rest of the Fellowship (excluding Gandalf).Anyway, in Author's note 5, to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth: "They [the Elves] were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods."
I disagree with you. Aragorn surpassed glorfindel in the use of the sword. There are writings about it.
I disagree with you. Aragorn surpassed glorfindel in the use of the sword. There are writings about it. And Aragorn rushed forward with Boromir against Durins Bane, who was stronger than all the Balrogs except Gothmog. If Gandalf had not destroyed the bridge, he would have fought the Balrog. I think the sons of Fingolfin cannot defeat Aragorn at all. He fought in 6 battles. The sons of Fingolfin have not fought so many battles. Aragorn has so much battle experience. He has spent his life fighting in the wild. And Aragorn single-handedly entered the uruk-hai, who was stronger than the 3rd age elves, and slew them all unscathed in amon hen. I think only fingolfin can beat Aragorn.
I read it on google long ago. I don't think I can find that article right now. See also; https://fictionhorizon.com/10-best-lord-of-the-rings-middle-earth-swordsmen-ranked/What writings please? Can you point to the texts specifically?
Oh, just found it. Seems to be in Book of Lost Tales volume 2, Part III "The Fall of Gondolin". very early stuff, but I believe JRRT never returned to it properly (that extensive fragment in UT breaks off before Tuor passes the last gate). But I'm not to be deterred from my hunt for that Legolas comment ... 😜So I am here working off of the published Silmarillion of tuor and the fall of Gondolin. It says they were taken unawares while at a festival also at nighttime as the elves waited the rising of the sun to sing. It really was more epic last stands by Glorfindel and Turgon that allowed some to survive though most did not.
because in the 2nd movie, in the battle of hornburg, the uruk-hais almost chopped all the elves.but if you don't see the movies as a reference, my neck is thinner than a hair.There is no question Aragorn was a very powerful piece on the free people's puzzle. In fact, in ROTK I almost think Gandalf the White seems to take a backseat to Aragorn [especially his use of the seeing stone] and it was only he [aragorn] who could summon the army of dunharrow. But was he a better swordsman than Glorfiendel? I don't remember anywhere specifically stating such, it could be, that was not my impression but I don't ever remember the two being compared. I do remember Glorfiendel seemingly taking over as leader of the pre-Rivenbdell fellowship from Aragorn. But that could also be because it was near Rivendell his home territory.
But where did you get that the uruk-hai were more powerful than third-age elves? they were more powerful than any orc breed from any age, but elves?
Elthir may not want to push this statement as far as I do. But I note that this is about Elves in general, not just the Noldor returned from Aman. I would rate these even higher than Elves in general. No, I have always viewed the Elves as being superior to men in practically every aspect after having read my way through my JRRT library. I'll post this now and go hunt for a quote (I'm guessing "Letters") about Legolas compared to the rest of the Fellowship (excluding Gandalf).
Oh, just found it. Seems to be in Book of Lost Tales volume 2, Part III "The Fall of Gondolin". very early stuff, but I believe JRRT never returned to it properly (that extensive fragment in UT breaks off before Tuor passes the last gate). But I'm not to be deterred from my hunt for that Legolas comment ... 😜
I read it on google long ago. I don't think I can find that article right now. See also; https://fictionhorizon.com/10-best-lord-of-the-rings-middle-earth-swordsmen-ranked/
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