Who would win between Olorin and 👁️Sauron?

[Gothmog]

But anyway, Elven blades, I would propose, had been made specifically to be effective against the servants of Morgoth - all of them. And If you think of Fingolfin giving Morgoth seven wounds with his sword Ringil that never again healed (properly), against Morgoth himself, even. Even assuming Glamdring was not in the class of Ringil, to salami-slice a subordinate of a subordinate of Morgoth's (and a Ring-wraith could no longer be considered a man) should have been well within its capabilities.

I agree with you that Glamdring and also Orcrist would have been blades capable of wounding or killing the Witch King. However, it is not just swords that are important in such a case. We know that Gandalf was sent back with greater powers as "The White". What we do not know is how much extra freedom of action he was allowed. It might be that in a situation of defending against the Witch kings direct attack Gandalf would be allowed to destroy him while being forbidden from initiating an attack himself.

 

[Olorgando]

… What we do not know is how much extra freedom of action he was allowed. It might be that in a situation of defending against the Witch kings direct attack Gandalf would be allowed to destroy him while being forbidden from initiating an attack himself.

Yes, I would also guess that he had limits to offensive actions (that old good guys with hand tied behind their backs gripe of mine).

In Book Five, chapter IV “The Siege of Gondor”, describing a sortie of the knights of Dol Amroth to come to the rescue the retreating forces led by Faramir (from that braindead attempt at defending Osgiliath insisted on by Denethor):
“… but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand.
The Nazgûl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.”
(Fat lot of good any challenge would have done him, as I’ve made my opinion quite clear.)
I’ve sometimes thought “hey, Gandalf, why not go into serious flack mode and blast those creeps and their foul flying critters from the sky, leaving bits of charcoal raining down?!?”

(Michael T had been with the anti-aircraft forces, even during the Battle of Britain, and later in France and Germany – suffering a good deal of “shell-shock” from it – so he could have given his dad some pointers.)

 

[Elthir]

Gothmog wrote: "I agree with you [Olorgando] that Glamdring and also Orcrist would have been blades capable of wounding or killing the Witch King."

I believe that any blade was capable of wounding or killing a Witch-king. But I'll leave that for a good "who killed the Witch-king thread".

As for the thread in question: I have not read it yet

 

[Lotrguy]

We are getting out of topic here!

Gothmog wrote: "I agree with you [Olorgando] that Glamdring and also Orcrist would have been blades capable of wounding or killing the Witch King."

I believe that any blade was capable of wounding or killing a Witch-king. But I'll leave that for a good "who killed the Witch-king thread".

As for the thread in question: I have not read it yet

No, only elven makes like Mary’s when he stabbed witch king. It undone the curse and eyown finished him.

We are getting a little off topic here, this is about Olorin and Sauron.

 

[Olorgando]

… If you think of Fingolfin giving Morgoth seven wounds with his sword Ringil that never again healed (properly) ...
So, Gandalf the White, a much-enhanced (by Eru himself) Maia, wielding Glamdring (a First-Age Elven blade) against Sauron without (or even with?) his Ring.
Would Sauron, remembering as he should be able to do that Fingolfin-Morgoth encounter, even dare to leave Barad-dûr?
Or other thoughts to such an encounter?

 

[Elthir]

No, only elven makes like Mary’s when he stabbed witch king. It undone the curse and eyown finished him. We are getting a little off topic here, this is about Olorin and Sauron.

Aha! You took the bait!

But I'll keep my promise (for now) and save my response for a "who killed the WK thread". Someone will "necromance" one sooner or later. Problem is, I probably already rambled about Merry's dagger in most of them!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Probably a good idea. I raised one from the dead on the previous page -- though that was mostly concerned with the barrow-blades themselves.

Lotrguy is mistaken on one point, though: Merry's blade wasn't Elven-make -- it was explicitly stated to have been made by men.

 

[Elthir]

But was Merry's blade magic, if made by Men?

And then Sir Galin ran away
nearly wearing feet to knees
And the people shouted yeah
to see him awkward flee

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

See that quizzical note by JRRT:

"But Numenoreans used 'spells' in the making of swords?"

 

[Gothmog]

But was Merry's blade magic, if made by Men?

And then Sir Galin ran away
nearly wearing feet to knees
And the people shouted yeah
to see him awkward flee

I would say yes

 

[Elthir]

I always refuse to use the like button but I enjoyed that response 🐾

 

[Gothmog]

But now. Let us look at what we know about the blades.
From the Fellowship of the Ring:

For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold. They gleamed as he drew them from their black sheaths, wrought of some strange metal, light and strong, and set with many fiery stones. Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun.
'Old knives are long enough as swords for hobbit-people,' he said. 'Sharp blades are good to have, if Shire-folk go walking, east, south, or far away into dark and danger.' Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dûm in the Land of Angmar.

And then from The Two Towers:

'Here we find tokens!' He picked out from the pile of grim weapons two knives, leaf-bladed, damasked in gold and red; and searching further he found also the sheaths, black, set with small red gems. 'No orc-tools these!' he said. 'They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.

Now, the use of "Magical Spells" does seem out of place and too "Elvish" for the work of Men. What then could be the meaning of:

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

The "Spells" most likely were the damasked serpents and possibly runes marked on the blades that the Orcs recognised. What made the blades so special could only be the "Strange metal" of which they were made. Perhaps there is actually something about the metal that would interfere with the connection of ring and Wraith when it penetrated the body and though not fatal in itself the blow to the knee made the Witch king vulnerable to the force of Eowyn's strike.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Mithril is one possibility discussed in Valandil's thread. As are the "serpent-forms".

The line "no other blade" is one factor making me skeptical about "ranking" swords -- or if this is insisted upon, the Barrow-blades would be at the top -- at least as far as efficacy against the Witch-King is concerned.

BTW -- embedded in Valandil's thread is a link to an older discussion on the nature of "magic" in Tolkien, if anyone is interested.

 

[Elthir]

So we're doing this now? Here? 😇

My interpretation: "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

As I baited above, I think any sword could have "killed" the Witch-king . . . but you get one strike per sword, so it better be good. And if you only wound Mr. King, it would be handy to have a blade with extra potency. Also, if you break the connection (a "knitting together") between a man's will and his sinews, said man cannot make ("will" as a verb) his limbs move . . . in this case, to avoid or defend against a lethal strike from Eowyn.

To my mind, after Merry's strike, Eowyn doesn't exactly react with lightning speed, but the Nazgul-lord cannot will himself to his own defense. He is made "vulnerable" in this sense, like a deer in headlights. I note also Tolkien's statement from the "Zimmerman letter". "Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20: the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.) JRRT

I realize one could say: and become vulnerable to regular blades is simply unsaid here, but I think it's simpler. Merry's wound was bitter indeed, it not only hurt, it allowed an otherwise (arguably) defeated Eowyn to struggle up and "kill" the Witch-king, who by his mere presence had already caused battle-trained men to flee from him in terror.

Anyway, that's the short version of my opinion!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

So we're doing this now? Here? 😇

So it would appear.

As for "any sword", I agree, with this proviso: it could be done only after the application of the spell in (or on) the Barrow-blade. The text, it seems to me, makes this clear.

 

[Elthir]

Ah but that proviso makes things notably different from my opinion. Your interpretation is no doubt popular; I can't remember a thread in which I haven't encountered it, but for me, any car could kill a deer, even in the day (without headlights to break the connection between its will and sinews). In other words, if that's what Merry's blade did (as I think), it doesn't necessarily need to happen first.

It did happen first. And in this scenario, it needed to happen in the sense that Eowyn was arguably done for otherwise.

I'm not implying that you didn't understand my earlier post SeS, but I don't wanna do laundry right now, so I explained my position again.

And why am I picking on deer?

Sorry deer.

 

[Gothmog]

As I baited above, I think any sword could have "killed" the Witch-king . . . but you get one strike per sword, so it better be good. And if you only wound Mr. King, it would be handy to have a blade with extra potency. Also, if you break the connection (a "knitting together") between a man's will and his sinews, said man cannot make ("will" as a verb) his limbs move . . . in this case, to avoid or defend against a lethal strike from Eowyn.

I agree that any sword could have killed the Witch King had it struck the heart or other immediately fatal blow, I think that non-fatal strikes with other swords would not have the same effect as the Barrow-blade did.

realize one could say: and become vulnerable to regular blades is simply unsaid here, but I think it's simpler. Merry's wound was bitter indeed, it not only hurt, it allowed an otherwise (arguably) defeated Eowyn to struggle up and "kill" the Witch-king, who by his mere presence had already caused battle-trained men to flee from him in terror.

Agreed. I only point out that the only real difference between the Barrow-blades and other swords is the metal they are made from. So if "no other blade" could do so then it is most likely this that caused the wound to be so effective at that time.

Perhaps through an "Allergic" reaction?
Iron is in some myths to have great effect on certain creatures.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

If the metal from which they were made is the only factor, the spell emphasised in the text becomes meaningless. In which case, why did the author bother putting it in?

 

[Gothmog]

If we look at the Myths, Legends and History of our world, we can see that "spells", "runes of power", and other marks were spoken during the making or placed on the blades and hilts of swords in the belief that they increased the power or efficacy of the blades especially against "Supernatural" foes.
While such beliefs were widespread it was not the "Spells" and such that was effective but the metals and methods of forging improved the blades.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

True enough, but I find trying to rationalize a fictional universe in terms of the real universe unproductive. However, if you find a historical example of a blade, magical or otherwise, used effectively against an undead being in our universe, be sure to let us know.