Why did Peter Jackson use Angerthas Erebor for Azog?

[Elthir]

I recently learned that the films employed the Angerthas Erebor for the name Azog. I'd have guessed the Angerthas Moria -- I realize Thrór and (I would guess) Nár ultimately hailed from Erebor, but wouldn't Azog know the runic system as found in Moria?

Or is there something else I'm not thinking of?

 

[Alcuin]

I’m not certain I could distinguish Angerthas Erebor from Angerthas Moria: what are the differences? And for that matter, what are the differences between Dwarvish runes and those Aragorn said (at Weathertop) the Dúnedain used? I suppose, like real-world runes, they were often very similar, and it is difficult to distinguish which is which unless distinctive runes (sounds) are used (expressed) in the script.

But given Jackson’s sometimes loose interpretations, in what context is “AZOG” spelled using Dwarvish runes? Surely this was not the work of Orcs!

 

[Elthir]

Sorry, forgot to mention the context -- it's the name Azog branded on the head of Thrór.

The rune for Z in the Angerthas Moria would be read as KS in the Angerthas Erebor -- but even if Nár is the intended reader, the "writer" is nonetheless Azog or one of his subordinates, who, by virtue of occupying Moria, would arguably have access to writing in the Angerthas Moria.

On the charts in Appendix E we see that rune 17 is used for z in the Angerthas Moria, and in the following description for the mode of Erebor (not on the chart) it's noted that rune number 43 was used for Z rather, "and of 17 as ks (x)"

So far I've found two artist depictions with two different interpretations (using 43 or 17) and a description that the film used 43 (again, Erebor mode for Z).

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I'm mainly surprised to learn there were schools for orcs. Though I did run into a few in the schools I attended.

 

[Alcuin]

From Appendix A, “III Durin’s Folk”,

Nár turned the head and saw branded on the brow in Dwarf-runes so that he could read it the name AZOG.
​

So the reasons Azog used the Angerthas Erebor were that:

1. he knew it,
2. he knew (at least strongly suspected) Nár could read it, and
3. it was the version of Cirth (runes) then in use among Durin’s Folk, since Khazad-dûm had been by that time abandoned by them for nearly one thousand years.

Angerthas Erebor was the successor script of Angerthas Moria, which was likely no longer in use so late in the Third Age except in its extant form as Angerthas Erebor. Other explanations might be nearer the mark, but that is what makes sense to me.

I suspect there were indeed literate Orcs, particularly if, as was originally the author’s intent, they were ruined Elves, later including ruined Men. I recently reread The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings; this passage is from The Return of the King, “The Tower of Cirith Ungol”, Frodo’s response to Sam when Sam asks (probably more in bitter humor than seriously) if Orcs can live on “foul air and poison,”

[ Orcs] eat and drink… The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don’t think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them; and if they are to live at all, they have to live like other living creatures.
​

The conversation Sam that overheard between Shagrat and Gorbag near the Undergate shows that Orcs do indeed have a sense of loyalty, of duty, and of propriety, twisted and ruined though it might be after millennia of misuse and misdirection; likewise, both Uglúk and Grishnákh show considerable loyalty, even faithfulness, toward their respective masters, besides indications that Grishnákh knew far more about the Ruling Ring than Aragorn dared suppose.

We are not given any songs, nursery tales (there must have been Orklings, young Orcs), legends (except by way of inference, such as Shagrat’s and Gorbag’s references to the “Great Siege” and so forth), or much else of their culture. Tolkien was admittedly uncomfortable with the origins of Orcs, as discussed elsewhere on this board; and in his Letters, he often mentioned that there were “Orcs” present on both sides of World War II, “Orcs” among Men, Men who acted as bad as Orcs, in the real world. Most of us know some such, and some of us have, from time to time, acted as such, if we are completely honest with ourselves. Recognizing the Orcishness in oneself, its potential if not its actualization, is a disconcerting steppingstone along the path of Wisdom, I believe.

 

[Elthir]

So the reasons Azog used the Angerthas Erebor were that:

1. he knew it ( . . .)

So far, that's the crux of the matter for me: how did Azog know it, given that the inscriptions he'd encounter in the mines would be in the Angerthas Moria. The mode of Erebor shows up much later in the Book of Mazarbul (after Balin's return), for example.

I guess we can simply say that Azog knew the mode of Erebor, and invent a reason why.

Or that Nár would read rune 17 in the Moria mode, given the circumstances. In other words, invent a scenario that has the Dwarf knowing what was meant despite the different modes.

Anyway, it seems I'm on the fence now

 

[Alcuin]

The Orcs in Moria came originally from Dol Guldur. In Appendix B, there is an entry for circa III 2480, “Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.” (If Sauron did not know already that Durin’s Bane was a balrog, he soon learned.)

There were never many Orcs in Moria: In “The Hunt for the Ring” part (ii), “Other Versions of the Story” from Unfinished Tales, footnote 11, part of Tolkien’s notes on Gollum,

These [Orcs] were in fact not very numerous, it would seem; but sufficient to keep any intruders out, if not better armed or prepared than Balin’s company, and not in great numbers.
​

Azog, I suppose, was their leader, described in Appendix A as “a great Orc with a huge iron-clad head, and yet agile and strong… fell and full of guile.” That a literate Orc would be selected by Sauron to lead an expedition that was, if we might so describe it, a “treaty arrangement” with the balrog, should not be surprising: Azog was several days journey from Dol Guldur, would need to be able to receive instructions from and send messages to Dol Guldur without arousing the suspicions of the balrog, and some of those messages probably needed to be as discrete as possible. It is most unlikely the balrog was foolish enough to completely trust Sauron’s intentions, though I’ve no doubt the two Umaiar were in some sort of alliance with one another: ultimately, as Gandalf suspected Sauron intended to use Smaug in an assault upon Rivendell, I suspect Sauron hoped to use the balrog in an assault on Lórien, a suspicion that Celeborn seems also to have entertained, though he was uncertain of the precise nature of “Durin’s Bane”. (A side note: if entering Moria was “a trap” for the Company of the Ring, was the balrog apprised beforehand? And if so, how did the Company advance so far into his territory before they were intercepted? Was it unprepared, or simply unaware of when they might enter? Did messages pass between Moria and Dol Guldur concerning the Nine Walkers?)

In short, it should not be too surprising that Azog was able to read and write. I don’t suppose the Orcs had their versions of Shakespeare – or Tolkien – but there must have been several who had “learned their letters,” who were able to read and write with sufficient proficiency to receive military and (in the case of Azog, who was between Sauron and the balrog) diplomatic orders and send reports on conditions and events in the places under their command, though I don’t think it safe to presume that even basic literacy was widespread among Orcs.

 

[Elthir]

I've no problem with the idea that Azog, in general, could read and write.

Appendix E relates that the Cirth in their older and simpler form spread eastward in the Second Age and became known to Men, Dwarves, and even Orcs "all of whom altered them to suit their purposes and according to their skill or lack of it. One such simple form was still used by the Men of Dale."

And when the Alphabet of Daeron passed to Moria, it became the alphabet most favored by the Dwarves. "It remained ever after in use among them and passed with them into the North. Hence in later times it was often called the Angerthas of Moria . . ."

Even the tomb of Balin illustrates -- for the part in Dwarvish anyway -- the Angerthas Moria.

So far, I guess it's not impossible for Azog to know that rune 17 was no longer used for Z in the mode of Erebor. But also so far, I think it's possible that Nár could read 17 as used in the Angerthas Moria.

 

[Culaeron]

In short, it should not be too surprising that Azog was able to read and write. I don’t suppose the Orcs had their versions of Shakespeare – or Tolkien – but there must have been several who had “learned their letters,” who were able to read and write with sufficient proficiency to receive military and (in the case of Azog, who was between Sauron and the balrog) diplomatic orders and send reports on conditions and events in the places under their command, though I don’t think it safe to presume that even basic literacy was widespread among Orcs.

I’m having visuals of Orcs sitting around swapping smutty dime novels during off duty hours....

 

[Alcuin]

I’m having visuals of Orcs sitting around swapping smutty dime novels during off duty hours....

Yeah. I only read PlayOrc for the interviews.