Why do 🧝Elves get their butts wooped at Helms deep?

aragil said:

....there remains a wide gulf between a fan's interpretation of what he said, and what he actually did say.

Uplifting Moment in books:....This is similar to what happens in the movie....Is there something wrong with the arrival of the Elves in the movie?
I've already pointed out how it "corrects" the error of Rivendell Elves not fighting in the book.

On the length of the battle in the movie: I think people actually enjoy exaggerating when they complain about these movies.
Yes, the book passage is shorter, but much of it is of the sort:....Very easy to write that concisely on paper, rather more difficult to compact it on screen.

And yes, PJ did decide to expand the importance of Helm's Deep- he made it the dramatic centerpiece of the movie. What, precisely, is wrong with that.

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In your post after this one you helpfully give us a transcript of what they all did say. I don't know how you managed to do that,
as I've tried and never been able to make it all out, so thanks for the effort. To me, there's a key phrase: PJ's "you girls" - I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I say that gives it all away - the script was written by a set of boys and girls, talking as if they were amateurs at the job, not taking it seriously, throwing together ideas as they went along, and making feeble excuses for themselves after the event. I said something similar in a previous thread, and I'm sticking to it all the more now.

The uplifting moment, certainly similar to the book, so why not make it as near as possible the SAME rather than just "similar"?
With so much available in the book, why invent ANYthing radically new? That's why elves are "wrong" in the film. Of course,
I don't accept your idea of an "error" in the book!

Do you mean that people complain about the length of HD in the film, and that in doing so they exaggerate? If some DO complain, then I agree that they do exaggerate, and the statistics you quote in that next post confirm that quite reasonably - the film scenes taking a percentage of time that is twice the percentage of space in the book IS reasonable. I said the film scene is
"long-drawn-out", but I didn't mean it is TOO long, in absolute terms; I was talking about the nature of its content. The short passage that you quote did not need to be "compacted" for the screen, and of course it isn't compacted - it's expanded - quite rightly - and very well! If more of the book scenes were given that sympathetic treatment, if more of Tolkien's "uplifting" incidents had been expanded, the 20 minute total for the battle would have seemed inadequate, rather than long-drawn-out! It's all PJ's padding that makes it drag on.

Or, to summarise that paragraph, if PJ had given us more of T's HD than he did, then there would have been NOTHING wrong with it being the centrepiece - it would have been a great idea and would have worked beautifully.

joxy said:

In your post after this one you helpfully give us a transcript of what they all did say. I don't know how you managed to do that,
as I've tried and never been able to make it all out, so thanks for the effort. To me, there's a key phrase: PJ's "you girls" - I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I say that gives it all away - the script was written by a set of boys and girls, talking as if they were amateurs at the job, not taking it seriously, throwing together ideas as they went along, and making feeble excuses for them selves after the event. I said something similar in a previous thread, and I'm sticking to it all the more now.

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Oh yes Joxy, the script writers were all just a bunch of amateurs just throwing in ideas because you say so. There's not a chance in hell that these people are oscar nominated professionals that you just choose to hate for changing and yes, in some moments, improving tolkien. And you can defend yourself by saying that you don't hate the movies, but your posts speak for themselves.

What else is it when in every turn you're bad mouthing PJ, PB and FW by calling them either incompetent or amateurs that don't know what they're doing, if you're so smart and great in all matters Tolkien, I'm surprised that these amateurs were given the reigns of a multi million dollar project instead of you.

Ol'gaffer said:

....because you say so.
....you just choose to hate....
....in some moments, improving tolkien.
....you don't hate the movies, but your posts speak for themselves.
....you're bad mouthing PJ, PB and FW by calling them either incompetent or amateurs....
I'm surprised that these amateurs were given the reigns.

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I said I didn't expect anyone to agree with me!!
I do not "hate", so I ask you now to withdraw those two references including the word.
Show me ONE improvement, please.
My posts NEVER speak "hate" - the idea of "hating" something so trivial as a film is ridiculous.
We're all incompetent at times, and I said they "talked LIKE amateurs": no "bad-mouthing" in that.
I'm surprised they were given them too, and those famous awards, when I hear SOME of their product.
I wasn't offered the job, unfortunately.

well anyways are u 2 done arguing?

I thought that the elves was a great addition to the movies and even though its impossible that elves traveled to helms deep from lorien in that time it still improved the movie. I was just disappointed that PJ did not showing elves kick some orc *Removed* because i always pictured elves as very swift and deadly warriors and they are not portrayed like that in Two Towers.

Using other charaters to indicate a disallowed word is concidered the same as using the word itself. Do not do so.

Gothmog

The Elves killed more Uruk-hai than the Uruk-hai killed of Elves. A lot more. How is that getting your tail kicked? One-on-one the Elves were probably better than the Uruk-hai. They were also outnumbered about 10 to 1. At that point it doesn't much matter that you are more skilled- the enemy is more numerous and stronger. You may kill more of them, but you will not kill 10 of them for every one of you that dies.

joxy- I sat down with a pen and a piece of paper, my dvd, and the remote. I would listen to the commentary (several times if need be), pause the commentary, write down what I heard, and then continue on. Nothing too tricky about it.
There is certainly an 'error' in the books. The Rivendell Elves never fight. Rivendell includes the remainders of the smiths of Eregion- the folks responsible for giving all that power to Sauron in Ring form. I suppose you could excuse them by just saying they were selfish. Personally, I prefer the way the movie handled it.

Arvedui- a single film of the Silmarillion would be quite impossible. The best that could be done would be a film per chapter. The Nirnaeth alone would have enough (fully fleshed out) to be as long as the entire Lord of the Rings, I imagine. It would certainly be on the same scale as the entire War of the Ring that ended the third age.

Joxy, Aragil already beat me to it by saying one improvement.
The books leave the image of the rivendell elves just high tailing it the moment danger rears it's ugly head.

In the movies, this is dealt in good manner by bringing the elves to battle with men as to show that they are not alone in this war.

Ol'gaffer said:

....Aragil already beat me to it by saying one improvement.
The books leave the image of the rivendell elves just high tailing it the moment danger rears it's ugly head.
In the movies, this is dealt in good manner by bringing the elves to battle with men as to show that they are not alone in this war.

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No, we were talking about the scriptwriters: I asked you to show me one improvement from them.
I have always understood that it is a theme of TLOTR that the day of the Elves is past; that with only specific exceptions, their role in these books is on a level of importance similar to that which PJ apparently gives to Saruman in his idea of ROTK TE.
The elves have fought their LAST alliance, and, after thousands of years of experience, they are rapidly losing interest in M-E; their eyes, and most of their feet, are directed to the West. Men ARE alone; that's another aspect of this theme. I don't think a reversal of this theme is an "improvement", though, of course, this must be a matter of opinion. However, the appearance of a militarised troop of elves, itself a weird concept, isn't enough to improve their "reputation", even for someone who doesn't accept T's idea of them. This isn't the place for it, but the actual look of them leaves a lot to be desired - they make me laugh!

I've asked you to remove references to "hate". I ask you again now.

I won't, as other members have also noted, that aspect rings too close in your posts regarding the screenwriters and the movie, call it what you wish, but it is hate, maybe not scream out loud hate but a subtle one that is evident every time you call pj incompetent or the screenwriters amateur children or the movies laughably bad.

Ol'gaffer said:

I won't, as other members have also noted, that aspect rings too close in your posts regarding the screenwriters and the movie, call it what you wish, but it is hate, maybe not scream out loud hate but a subtle one that is evident every time you call pj incompetent or the screenwriters amateur children or the movies laughably bad.

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OK, then I'll make it official and formal.
I also ask again for the example of an improvement from the script-writers.
Hate is for important things; hate is something that my religion and my philosophy forbid, except in the most extreme circumstances; I hate nothing - and I think the idea of hating something as trivial as a film is ludicrous.
Being incompetent, occasionally, and on a specific and specified occasion, is something that all we human beings do. To have it pointed out to us is to our benefit, not to our detriment, and to say that pointing it out is to demonstrate hatred is ludicrous.
Show me one person in the entire world, in the last 1970 years, who has never shown a single instance of incompetence.
The quotation that Aragil gave us from the DVD shows the scriptwriters, including "you girls" as PJ calls them, chatting to each other exactly like naughty children trying to explain away a silly thing that they have done. To say so, is NOT to call them, is NOT to say they are, naughty children. All we human beings occasionally act like children, and like all sorts of other things, and all very natural and GOOD that is. I wouldn't want a world where there wasn't a little childishness from the adults now and again.
I've never called the films bad. I've said they are GOOD, in parts; less good in other parts. Certainly I've called PARTS of them laughable, and I've had a great deal of agreement about that, even from staunch PJ supporters. How many products of the human mind and skills are totally good? Again, I would not want a world which didn't have SOME imperfections. It's only the quantity and quality of PJ's imperfections that are under discussion.

aragil said:

joxy- I sat down with a pen and a piece of paper, my dvd, and the remote....Nothing too tricky about it.
There is certainly an 'error' in the books.

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Maybe not all that tricky, but quite an effort, so, as I said before - thank you!
I've said in another post why I disagree with your assessment of the book elves.

Aragil i dont think u understand what Im saying. Yes obviously the elves killed more orcs then elves because they shot about 1000 arrows at them but when the ladders came up and the orc berserkers and uruk hai jumped on the deeping wall, all the scenes were uruks tearing the elves apart. Jackson didnt show the skill of elvish fighting besides their ability to shoot arrows.

including "you girls" as PJ calls them, chatting to each other exactly like naughty children trying to explain away a silly thing that they have done.

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This was used to give an informal and fun atmosphere to the commentary. Can you imagine if you had someone speaking in a monotone (Celeborn perhaps!) about what we did here and how we did this there for three hours?
I'd go mad.
I hope that there is no more twisting of the truth to suit personal arguments
because that is nothing more than Slander and whoever does so is in no position to complain about what Jackson has done to Tolkien.

Thanks
Morgaphry

Morgaphry said:

This was used to give an informal and fun atmosphere to the commentary.
I hope that there is no more twisting of the truth....
....that is nothing more than Slander....

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Certainly they gave it an informal and fun atmosphere, just as children might have done. As I said, "All we human beings occasionally act like children, and like all sorts of other things, and all very natural and GOOD that is. I wouldn't want a world where there wasn't a little childishness from the adults now and again."
Acting like children, occasionally, isn't BAD; saying that someone does it, occasionally, doesn't TWIST anything, it isn't SLANDER!
It's more like a compliment.
As you say, who would want to go around looking like PJ's Celeborn, or more precisely, his Elrond, all the time?

Yes obviously the elves killed more orcs then elves because they shot about 1000 arrows at them but when the ladders came up and the orc berserkers and uruk hai jumped on the deeping wall, all the scenes were uruks tearing the elves apart. Jackson didnt show the skill of elvish fighting besides their ability to shoot arrows.

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I disagree, I think he showed their skill under those circumstances.

Tempers are starting to flare again.

Let's all just try to settle down and relax!

To help this process, this thread is closed for 24 hours.



RD

OK, now everybody should be back to their level headed and polite selves.

You may now resume your discussions


RD

Elrond was possibly the most well portrayed character in the trilogy.
I have read that people cannot see past the fact that Hugo Weaving played Agent Smith in the Matrix trilogy, I hope this is still not the case.

Weaving didn't speak in a monotone and was probably the best speaker of Elvish.
He was also the only person who pronounced Isildur properly. And he certainly let us know it!
He was stern at the appropriate times, showed a humorous side when addressing the hobbits and Gimli after unsuccessfuly trying to destroy the ring. He also looked genuinely fatherly at the Coronation of Elessar when he presented Arwen to him.
He certainly was not a dull character and did not speak in a monotone.
He was also a skilled swordsman at the Last Alliance.

If you are unsure of Hugo Weaving's ability as an actor, I suggest you find some of his Australian films, try The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

Also, my references to the alteration of the truth were referring to the statement abut Jackson not caring about the fans.

Thanks
Morgaphry

Morgaphry said:

Elrond was possibly the most well portrayed character in the trilogy.
I have read that people cannot see past the fact that Hugo Weaving played Agent Smith in the Matrix trilogy
Weaving didn't speak in a monotone and was probably the best speaker of Elvish.
He was stern at the appropriate times....
He certainly was not a dull character and did not speak in a monotone.
If you are unsure of Hugo Weaving's ability as an actor....try The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.
....my references to the alteration of the truth were referring to the statement abut Jackson not caring about the fans.

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To the first, all I can offer in comment is "lol"!
I've vaguely heard of Matrix, but have no idea who or what "Agent Smith" is or was.
Who said he DID speak in a monotone? I certainly didn't.
If the films had given us more decent English, they could have forgotten all about the Elvish, for me.
It was the stern look I was talking about, and I'm afraid the times when PJ allowed him to smile weren't frequent enough to make up for the "appropriate" times.
Dull/monotone: same comments as above.
I'm far from unsure about his ability; I think he's excellent, even in an uninteresting part.
Was he in Priscilla?! The outfits and makeup must have been very good!
" FW: We said "The fans are going to hate it," and he said "I don't care about the fans."
PB: {laughs}
PJ: Ooooh. I did not!"
PJ's comment sounds like a line from Priscilla, but I won't offer an opinion about who was telling the truth in that one.
Talking about slander, based on it, seems to be going a bit too far.

Everyone will agree that this scene did not need the Elves in it. The Hobbits were not even at Helms Deep so I don't know what you're talking about there. PJ really wanted to include the Elves so that it would seem more than just a bunch of old men and young boys who can't get help from anybody fighting off 10,000 Uruk-Hai. It made the scene more dramatic because the Elves came to fight, but also to renew the alliance that they once shared with the Men on the foot of Mt. Doom.