Why do 🧝Elves get their butts wooped at Helms deep?

[joxy]

Everyone will agree that this scene did not need the Elves in it.
The Hobbits were not even at Helms Deep so I don't know what you're talking about there.

It has to be "lol" again, to the first one.
To the second one, who said anything about hobbits being there, and what is who talking about?

 

[Morgaphry]

I fail to see what is laughable about my statement that Elrond was possibly the best portrayed character in the movie.
In my opinion, the best characters were MacKellan's Gandalf, Blanchett's Galadriel, Holm's Bilbo, Bean's Boromir and Weaving's Elrond.
The reason for so many equal firsts is the differing exposure we have to them: Gandalf has much more screentime than Bilbo, yet Holm still made a tremendous impact, especially when interacting with MacKellan.
I hope we get to see more of the two Sir Ians in the Hobbit. (Fingers Crossed!)
Visually, Elrond seemed wise, yet not wizened.
What were some of the inappropriate times for a stern or appraising facial expression? What other expression should he have had instead?
If you are in deep thought, think about your own facial expression.

Thanks
Morgaphry

 

[joxy]

I fail to see what is laughable about my statement that Elrond was possibly the best portrayed character in the movie.
In my opinion, the best characters were....Weaving's Elrond.

Yes, I should have said more than just "lol"!
If we ARE talking about "Weaving's Elrond" in the sense of "the standard of Weaving's acting in the role of Elrond as he was given it to portray" then he was just fine; as I said about his professional ability: "I think he's excellent, even in an uninteresting part."
If it's PJ's Elrond we're talking about then we enter a different area altogether, and I start to laugh again - anyone who knows the "real" Elrond has to either laugh or cry at PJ's idea of him - and others have done the crying already. That part IS uninteresting.

 

[aragil]

The "real" Elrond displays a sense of regret and anger at the results of the Last Alliance. The "real" Elves were estranged from Men. Weaving's/PJ's Elrond does a good job of getting these points across. The Movie Elrond also shows us a fatherly attitude towards both Arwen and Aragorn. I'm sure that most readers thought of Elrond as somewhat 'softer' than he appeared in the movies, but I think such differences can be considered as interpretive. If you're interested on further discussion on this, I do have a thread dedicated to the matter- any insight you might provide would be welcomed: http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1531

 

[joxy]

I'm sure that most readers thought of Elrond as somewhat 'softer' than he appeared in the movies.

Well, I certainly didn't think that, and I can't imagine why anyone should have thought that.
However, your thread on character is a good idea, and it would be nice to have it revived.

 

[jallan]

Aragil posted:

There is certainly an 'error' in the books. The Rivendell Elves never fight. Rivendell includes the remainders of the smiths of Eregion- the folks responsible for giving all that power to Sauron in Ring form. I suppose you could excuse them by just saying they were selfish. Personally, I prefered the way the movie handled it.

The error is yours.

Legolas was quite clear in Hollin about Celebrimbor's folk:

They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.

That of course would be those not slain by Sauron and his forces.

But let us suppose, in opposition to Tolkien via Legolas, that there were even as many as fifty former Noldor of Eregion in Imladris or nearby. What would you propose they and the other relatively small number of Elves living in and around Rivendell do ... attack the Black Gate? Lay siege to Dol Guldur?

They might take 100 times their number in Orcs with them ... and it wouldn't help anyone, would be no use at all.

Military force is hopeless. This is a given in the book. The Elves know it. Gandalf knows it. Elrond knows it. Denethor knows it. Denethor's despair is not without reason.

Lothlórien expects to be attacked from Dol Guldur as indeed happens in the book. It would be senseless in such extermity of danger for the Elves of Lothlórien to send half their forces to aid usurping Men, Men whom they have no love for, Men who are also far more numerous and command far more military power than they do.

But the commentary indicates that PJ doesn't have much of a clue why he did it and has to rationalize on the fly. I note no mention of Arwen accompanying them, though that would have been part of the original reason, that the Elves were part of PJ's original Arwen story.

In the films the Elves of Rivendell also never fight, so far as we are told, despite Haldir's inexplicable mention of Elrond (probably a holdover from the earlier concept).

Your complaint about the Elves of Rivendell was groundless and the film would not provide a resolution to it even if it were not groundless.

 

[aragil]

Thank you jallan, for that opinionated bit of contradiction to my thesis.

Of course, I disagree with you and find very little of your argument compelling. Hence, I suppose, your rebuttal is nearly groundless.

From Appendix B, the Second Age
1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.

From the Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
From that time war never ceased between Sauron and the Elves; and Eregion was laid waste, and Celebrimbor slain, and the doors of Moria were shut. In that time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was founded by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured.

From Letter 131, to Milton Waldman
Sauron became thus almost supreme in Middle-earth. The Elves held out in secret places (not yet revealed). The last Elf-Kingdom of Gilgalad is maintained precariously on the extreme west-shores, where are the havens of the Ships. Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris (in English Rivendell) on the extreme eastern margin of the western lands.

From ye Olde OED
refuge:
1. a. Shelter or protection from danger or trouble; succour sought by, or rendered to, a person. to do refuge, to give refuge or aid to one.
b. of refuge, adapted or intended for shelter or protection, as in city (see CITY 1f), country, harbour, place, port, (weapon,) of refuge; also house of refuge, an institution for sheltering the homeless or destitute.

sanctuary:
II. 5. a. A church or other sacred place in which, by the law of the mediæval church, a fugitive from justice, or a debtor, was entitled to immunity from arrest. Hence, in wider sense, applied to any place in which by law or established custom a similar immunity is secured to fugitives.
b. Applied to a similar place of refuge in a non-Christian country; an asylum.

Ah yes, groundlessness. The quote by Legolas explains (in part) why there were no Elves in Eregion. However, in 3 quite distinct sources we find that Elrond built Rivendell as a refuge for the Noldor. By consulting the handy dictionary I have found that a refuge is properly offered to those who are homeless or destitute. Which Noldor might be described as homeless or destitute? Why, the Noldor of Eregion, of course! Their homeland of Eregion was "laid waste". Rivendell was then founded as a refuge for them. Rivendell still existed in the Third Age, which strongly suggests that the Eregionions were also still around in the Third Age, else who would be populating the last homely house?

So perhaps we are now in accordance with Tolkien, via his own words?

And now you ask, what could even 50 (assuming Rivendell to be so small) Noldor do against the might of Mordor? Fight, of course!! The message I get from reading LotR is most certainly NOT "If you are small do not try, for you will doubtlessly fail"!! If the 50 former Noldor of Eregion could take so many as 100 Orcs each with them, then doubtless their presence would have been quite useful to the other folks who died on the Pelannor. Why, by your view Halbarad and the rest of the Dunedain should never have ventured south- their force was equally insufficient to lay seige to the Black Gates. Why should Elladan and Elrohir ('Elves' of Rivendell, you might say) come down to fight?

But then, your statement that

Military force is hopeless. This is a given in the book. The Elves know it. Gandalf knows it. Elrond knows it. Denethor knows it. Denethor's despair is not without reason.

is wrong. Military struggle against Sauron was not hopeless- it was final victory by military means that was beyond the grasp of the West at this point. Denethor's dispair might have had a reason, but still his attitude was reprehensible (IMO). The victory at the Pelannor and the subsequent display of Military force at the Morannon were two of the key components in Sauron's downfall. If those uses of Military Force hadn't occurred, then Frodo would probably not have been able to fulfill his quest. 50 Noldorin Elves would have been quite useful in either circumstance. What reason did they have for not coming?

However, compared to your somewhat jaded view on the matter, what I get from reading the Professor's books is a rather more optimistic message. Take Sam's speech on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol:

But that's not the way of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually – their paths were laid that way, as you put it. But I expect they had lots of chances, like us, of turning back, only they didn't. And if they had, we shouldn't know, because they'd have been forgotten. We hear about those as just went on – and not all to a good end, mind you; at least not to what folk inside a story and not outside it call a good end

For me this strikes something of a chord, and it is one of the central passages of the whole book. The Elves' proposed attitude of "What can we do so why should we try?" runs extremely counter to this sentiment. I don't believe that Tolkien would ever have the Elves be so demonstrably opposite to the moral character of the rest of the book's heroes, hence to me Rivendell's neutral performance appears to be an error.

How would the Movies depiction redress this error? I think the answer is obvious- it shows these Elves fighting. Do they vanquish Saruman, Sauron, and all the other enemies to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth? No- they do not have the power to do so. But, as Randle Patrick McMurphy might say: "Well, they tried, didn't they? At least they did that." They do it for all the things already pointed out, and for other things elucidated by Merry and Sam in the movie. This fits within the themes of both book and movie, and is exactly what is described in the commentary (it also very nicely presages Theoden's decision to ride to Minas Tirith, even though he knows that the Rohirrim do not have enough men to overthrow Mordor). There is no "rationalization on the fly" as you imply. It was thought out. It fits in with the themes of books and movie. Thanks again for the discussion.

As a sidenote, what makes you say that Rivendell Elves never fight in the movies? Why do you think the Elves at Helm's Deep come from Lothlorien? Their equipment is certainly different from that which we see Haldir and his brethren wearing on the borders of that wood. However, their equipment is identical to that used by the Elves under Elrond's command in the Last Alliance. When last we see Elrond in the film, he is pondering Galadriel's query: "Do we leave Middle-earth to its fate? Do we let them stand alone?". When Haldir shows up he says "I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell. An alliance once existed between Elves and men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance." Elrond was part of that Alliance. Galadriel was not. This has nothing to do with Galadriel, and everything to do with Elrond. Small wonder that you have no appreciation for the scene if you understand so little of it!


joxy- perhaps you misunderstood me? Here's yet another OED definition, if it helps:

soft:
II. 8. a. Of persons: Gentle or mild in nature or character; inclined to be merciful, lenient, or considerate in dealing with others; free from harshness, severity, or rigour; compassionate, kind, tender-hearted.

I was saying that most readers probably thought that Elrond appeared somewhat more kindly in the book than he did in the movie. Were you really disagreeing with this?
I like the characterization threads- they're fun when people post there, but people don't always take the opportunity.

 

[joxy]

When last we see Elrond in the film, he is pondering Galadriel's query: "Do we leave Middle-earth to its fate? Do we let them stand alone?".

When Haldir shows up he says "I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell....This has nothing to do with Galadriel, and everything to do with Elrond.
Small wonder that you have no appreciation for the scene if you understand so little of it!

I was saying that most readers probably thought that Elrond appeared somewhat more kindly in the book than he did in the movie. Were you really disagreeing with this?

That query always sounds to me more like a modern national leader pondering on whether to invade another country,
for its own sake. I name no names.
The language just isn't right; it jars with Tolkien's style - now tell me it's original!

So Haldir, from the land of Galadriel, who has nothing to do with the matter, is the agent of Elrond.
To put it colloquially, how come? Right now, I too neither appreciate, nor understand it.

I somehow hadn't thought of either Elrond in terms of softness/hardness, or kindness/unkindness, but yes, I suppose the book's resident of the Last HOMELY House must be thought of as softer/more kindly in that sense.

 

[Morgaphry]

It's simple.
Elrond gave a message to Galadriel telepathically who then instructed Haldir to give the message to Aragorn & Co.

Perhaps Haldir, Aragorn and Theoden they had a conference together before thay set up for battle and Haldir delivered some more tidings from Elrond via Galadriel.

Thanks
Morgaphry

 

[joxy]

It's simple.
Elrond gave a message to Galadriel telepathically who then instructed Haldir to give the message to Aragorn & Co.

Oh, so that's what's going on when Elrond and Galadriel take turns on the screen? Such a weird idea had never occurred to me, and I'm not convinced even now! How on earth did telepathy come into all this? And why didn't ET get a guest appearance, just to keep up the novelty? Or they could have used a moth-messenger, or borrowed an owl from Hogwarts....the mind boggles.
But actually my point wasn't that; it was about Aragil's comment: "this has nothing to do with Galadriel". In that case, "how come" she got Haldir involved?

 

[jallan]

Aragil posted:

Rivendell still existed in the Third Age, which strongly suggests that the Eregionions were also still around in the Third Age, else who would be populating the last homely house?

It doesn't even weakly suggest anything of the kind, especially when Legolas says the contrary.

The Last Homely House is populated by various Elves, origin not especially given. Elrond and Glorfindel were certainly not folk of Eregion.

So perhaps we are now in accordance with Tolkien, via his own words?

Why perhaps? You are not in accord with words from Tolkien. There are no words from Tolkien that indicate any Elves anywhere in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age were the remnants of the Elves of Eregion. The only words on the subject we have are those which Tolkien gives to Legolas who says that the Elves of Eregion sought the Havens long ago.

You can suppose that Legolas' words need not apply to every last Elf from Eregion, not unreasonably. But that is your supposition. Nothing in Tolkien supports it. Tolkien says in the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn":

Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped ...

So there were few Elves who survived Sauron's onslaught who presumably settled at that time in Rivendell along with other Elves when it was founded by Elrond and his troops. But according to Legolas those few sought the Havens long ago, possibly at the beginning of the Third Age when many Elves departed. You gratuitously invent a continued strong presence in Rivendell of Elves from Eregion to create a problem that Jackson doesn't solve in any case as he makes it quite clear that the Elves of Rivendell are mostly leaving Middle-earth.

Why, by your view Halbarad and the rest of the Dunedain should never have ventured south- their force was equally insufficient to lay seige to the Black Gates. Why should Elladan and Elrohir ('Elves' of Rivendell, you might say) come down to fight?

Again you attribute to me a view I do not hold.

Strawman arguments against what is not my view don't strengthen your arguments.

They came because they were summoned and they thought they were summoned by Aragorn, though in fact the request for help was sent by Galadriel:

     ‘They answered a summons, as you heard,’ said Gimli. ‘Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred. Let the Dúnedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess.’
     ‘Nay, Galadriel,’ said Legolas. ‘Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company from the North?’
     ‘Yes, you have it,’ said Gimli. ‘The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires. Now why did not we wish for some of our own kinsfolk, Legolas?’
     Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. ‘I do not think that any would come,’ he answered. ‘They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.’

This explains why the rangers came to Aragorn's aid and also explains why Elves were very unlikely to come, not because they were neutral, a silly suggestion on your part, but because they are already fighting the war on their own ground or expected that they would soon have to fight it.

The Elves' proposed attitude of "What can we do so why should we try?" runs extremely counter to this sentiment. I don't believe that Tolkien would ever have the Elves be so demonstrably opposite to the moral character of the rest of the book's heroes, hence to me Rivendell's neutral performance appears to be an error.

You invent again.

In fact many Elves were willing to give up the fight and had gone from Middle-earth or were leaving, fleeing the troubles of Middle-earth. That is in the book and the film. It is quite realistic. Many Elves also stayed. Elrond and Rivendell are not neutral in the book. The last Noldor in Middle-earth only all departed after the victory. One must also presume that Elrond (as a member of the White Council) along with his folk was strongly involved in the driving out of Sauron from Dol Guldur as told in The Hobbit.

It happened simply as an "historical" fact that Rivendell and the Grey Havens (and probably other small Elvish settlements we are not told about) were not attacked before the ending of the War (which came extraordinarily quickly). That Tolkien did not artificially contrive that every group of Elves be directly involved in battle is hardly an error.

How would the Movies depiction redress this error?

The error is only in your mind. In the books Elves had fought against Sauron and all creatues of Morgoth and continued to do so (except those who fled Middle-earth) mostly on their own ground, just as Men fought on their own ground and Dwarves fought on their own ground. Some fled. We see human refugees from the South at Bree.

This fits within the themes of both book and movie, and is exactly what is described in the commentary (it also very nicely presages Theoden's decision to ride to Minas Tirith, even though he knows that the Rohirrim do not have enough men to overthrow Mordor). There is no "rationalization on the fly" as you imply. It was thought out. It fits in with the themes of books and movie.

That it fits the themes has not been denied. Having a band of Dwarves come to help would have fit the themes also. You attempt to shift ground from your contention of error.

As a sidenote, what makes you say that Rivendell Elves never fight in the movies? Why do you think the Elves at Helm's Deep come from Lothlorien? Their equipment is certainly different from that which we see Haldir and his brethren wearing on the borders of that wood. However, their equipment is identical to that used by the Elves under Elrond's command in the Last Alliance. When last we see Elrond in the film, he is pondering Galadriel's query: "Do we leave Middle-earth to its fate? Do we let them stand alone?". When Haldir shows up he says "I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell. An alliance once existed between Elves and men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance." Elrond was part of that Alliance. Galadriel was not. This has nothing to do with Galadriel, and everything to do with Elrond.

You invent again. When last we see Elrond in the second film he is looking at Elves departing for the Havens with his approval and support, exactly the opposite to what you wish Rivendell Elves to do, far worse behavior than anything directly shown in the books. Stop inventing. It is implied strongly that almost all of the Rivendell Elves are leaving (getting out before Sauron or Saruman attacks). Anyone who finds Tolkien's depiction of the Rivendell Elves thematically poor should find Jackson's depiction at least as bad.

If you wish to imagine that some of Haldir's Elves were from Rivendell and wish to imagine that they were only sent out after that telepathic conference then imagine whether they travelled from Rivendell to Helm's Deep via the Jackson-Didn't-Think-About-Logistics-At-All Wormhole or by Movie-elf superspeed or by Elvish jet plan troop carrier or whatever you like. Jackson pulled this same silliness in the first film when Gandalf expects to ride to consult with Saruman and return to Bree before Frodo gets there.

For Elves from Lothlórien to arrive almost immediately after Théoden and his folk arrive at Helm's Deep indicates (unless one wishes to give up any attempt to make sense out of the logistics) that they must have set out very soon after the Fellowship left Lothlórien, long before that telepathic conference, unless one wishes again to imagine interdimensional wormholes or Elvish superspeed or something of the kind.

I suppose you could imagine that there happened to be some Rivendell Elves in Lothlórien and that they accompanied Haldir on an expedition against Saruman a day or two after the Fellowship left. But that would be your imagination fixing the error you imagine Tolkien made. Jackson makes none of this clear. I agree that originally, when Arwen was to be at Helm's Deep, at least some of those Elves would be sent by Elrond. What the case is supposed to be in the finished film ... who can tell in the resultant confusion?

That Elrond was part of the Alliance between Elves and Men but Galadriel and her folk or the folk of Lothlórien were not is another of your inventions. Tolkien writes nothing of Celeborn or Galadriel's doings during the War of the Last Alliance but the burden of proof is on anyone who would claim they remained aloof or that Glorfindel or Gildor or any other Elf remained aloof. But as to the people of Lórien, in one account in the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" we are told specifically that they took part. In the book Elrond appears only as herald of Gil-galad. In the film Elrond appears as leader of at least one troop. Anything else you wish to suppose is only your imagination. Celeborn and Galadriel are not shown to be part of the fighting ... if you wish to make something of that. I doubt that Jackson intended to indicate in not specifically showing them that they and the folk they commanded did not participate

But nothing in the film indicates clearly or at all that any Elf from Rivendell fought in the war. Movie-Elrond himself, after giving his message to Aragorn in Rohan, returned to Rivendell, unlike his sons in the book.

Small wonder that you have no appreciation for the scene if you understand so little of it!

Your understanding is based on unsupported imaginings which fit neither what Tolkien wrote or what Jackson shows without extraordinary special pleading.

 

[aragil]

Aragil posted:

Rivendell still existed in the Third Age, which strongly suggests that the Eregionions were also still around in the Third Age, else who would be populating the last homely house?

It doesn't even weakly suggest anything of the kind, especially when Legolas says the contrary.
The Last Homely House is populated by various Elves, origin not especially given. Elrond and Glorfindel were certainly not folk of Eregion.

Of course we don't know if Glorfindel was an Eregion Elf or not. Tolkien himself wasn't very clear on the subject. After writing the LotR he says that Glorfindel was probably sent to help Gil-galad around SA1200-1600. He could have passed on to Eregion during that time, where his aid would have been most helpful prior to the iminent assault of Sauron. Elrond is of course the founder of the house, and appears to be the exception rather than the rule to the population. The house was founded for the refugees of Eregion- there is no indication that the soldiers of Gil-galad stayed there, or that the house is populated by Elves of various origins- these would be inventions on your part, not that they trouble me overmuch.
The passage of Legolas is particular to the fact that Elves no longer live in Eregion. His statement does not seem to pertain to Ereginion Elves who removed to Rivendell. Those who went to Rivendell would not be in Eregion whether or not they subsequently went to the Grey Havens. Thus I don't find "They sought the Havens long ago" to completely explain "They are gone". In fact, I find my interpretation to be supported by the words of Tolkien.

Why perhaps? You are not in accord with words from Tolkien. There are no words from Tolkien that indicate any Elves anywhere in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age were the remnants of the Elves of Eregion. The only words on the subject we have are those which Tolkien gives to Legolas who says that the Elves of Eregion sought the Havens long ago.
You can suppose that Legolas' words need not apply to every last Elf from Eregion, not unreasonably. But that is your supposition. Nothing in Tolkien supports it.

'Perhaps' was meant to gently suggest that you were in error, rather than attempting to rub your face in it. I see that with you gentleness is ridiculed rather than reciprocated.
Rivendell was founded by Elrond for Elves of Eregion. No other Elves are described as living there. Rivendell endures into the Third Age, therefore I find the most likely conclusion to be that Eregionion Elves still live there, and I draw this conclusion from the words of Tolkien.
Again, Legolas's statement that the Elves of Eregion sought the Havens long ago is meant to expound upon the fact that there were no Elves in Eregion. However, his explanation is not all encompassing- some of the Elves of Eregion no longer dwelt in that land because they had removed to Rivendell. Once seen in this light it is clear that Legolas's words need not apply to every surviving Elf of Eregion. This conclusion is not only "not unreasonable", it is both reasonable and supported by the text.

Tolkien says in the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn":

Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped ...

So there were few Elves who survived Sauron's onslaught who presumably settled at that time in Rivendell along with other Elves when it was founded by Elrond and his troops. But according to Legolas those few sought the Havens long ago, possibly at the beginning of the Third Age when many Elves departed. You gratuitously invent a continued strong presence in Rivendell of Elves from Eregion to create a problem that Jackson doesn't solve in any case as he makes it quite clear that the Elves of Rivendell are mostly leaving Middle-earth.

"Such few" is a relative term, pertaining to the original population of Eregion. Wether it could be generally called "few" is anybody's guess, but ultimately irrelevent. I do not believe Legolas's statement pertains to these "few", for reasons I have already stated. I believe there is very strong evidence that the Elves of Eregion still inhabited Rivendell, so thank you very much but no need to attribute gratioutous invention to me.
I have already stated that as few as 50 Noldor would have been a boon to the people of Gondor, but I believe that the number of Elves involved is also irrelevent. What I was discussing was the symbolism of aiding Middle-earth by participating. Even one Elf from Eregion could have accomplished that.
And Jackson shows this happening, thereby redressing an error. Again, I dont require every Elf to be there, just some effort on the Elven part would be sufficient for me.

Why, by your view Halbarad and the rest of the Dunedain should never have ventured south- their force was equally insufficient to lay seige to the Black Gates. Why should Elladan and Elrohir ('Elves' of Rivendell, you might say) come down to fight?

Again you attribute to me a view I do not hold.
Strawman arguments against what is not my view don't strengthen your arguments.

I don't think this was a strawman argument. You specifically stated

{The Noldor of Eregion} might take 100 times their number in Orcs with them ... and it wouldn't help anyone, would be no use at all.

This view seems to be that 50 Elves killing 100 orcs each would not benefit anybody, would in fact be "no use at all". I mentioned the Dunedain (who only numbered 30 and who probably didn't kill 100 orcs apiece) as a force which I believed was useful. I believe that pointing out where you are in error does strengthen my arguments. Have I somehow misconstrued your argument here?

 

[aragil]

They came because they were summoned and they thought they were summoned by Aragorn, though in fact the request for help was sent by Galadriel:

‘They answered a summons, as you heard,’ said Gimli. ‘Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred. Let the Dúnedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess.’
‘Nay, Galadriel,’ said Legolas. ‘Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company from the North?’
‘Yes, you have it,’ said Gimli. ‘The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires. Now why did not we wish for some of our own kinsfolk, Legolas?’
Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. ‘I do not think that any would come,’ he answered. ‘They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.’

This explains why the rangers came to Aragorn's aid and also explains why Elves were very unlikely to come, not because they were neutral, a silly suggestion on your part, but because they are already fighting the war on their own ground or expected that they would soon have to fight it.

The Elves of which Legolas is speaking are his kinsfolk, not to be confused with the Elves of Rivendell. There is no indication that the Rivendell Elves were expecting an attack, and indeed Elladan and Elrohir come because they were "desiring to go to the war"- if war was expected on their own borders they would hardly need to bother with the journey.

The Elves' proposed attitude of "What can we do so why should we try?" runs extremely counter to this sentiment. I don't believe that Tolkien would ever have the Elves be so demonstrably opposite to the moral character of the rest of the book's heroes, hence to me Rivendell's neutral performance appears to be an error.

You invent again.

I did not invent, but thank you for suggesting that I accomplished such an admirable action. You stated that 50 Elves would not be able to accomplish much, and implied that this excused them from sending troops in the first place. I label this as an attitude of "What can we do so why should we try?". I showed a quote of Tolkien's describing how in "the stories that mattered" it is important to try, even when there is small hope of success. What part of this is so creative as to be invention?

In fact many Elves were willing to give up the fight and had gone from Middle-earth or were leaving, fleeing the troubles of Middle-earth. That is in the book and the film. It is quite realistic. Many Elves also stayed. Elrond and Rivendell are not neutral in the book. The last Noldor in Middle-earth only all departed after the victory. One must also presume that Elrond (as a member of the White Council) along with his folk was strongly involved in the driving out of Sauron from Dol Guldur as told in The Hobbit.

It happened simply as an "historical" fact that Rivendell and the Grey Havens (and probably other small Elvish settlements we are not told about) were not attacked before the ending of the War (which came extraordinarily quickly). That Tolkien did not artificially contrive that every group of Elves be directly involved in battle is hardly an error.The error is only in your mind. In the books Elves had fought against Sauron and all creatues of Morgoth and continued to do so (except those who fled Middle-earth) mostly on their own ground, just as Men fought on their own ground and Dwarves fought on their own ground. Some fled. We see human refugees from the South at Bree.That it fits the themes has not been denied. Having a band of Dwarves come to help would have fit the themes also.
You attempt to shift ground from your contention of error.

Many Elves were willing to give up- and I don't have much of a problem with that. However, many Elves continued to live in Rivendell during the War of the Ring. Since these Elves were from Eregion, they had a moral obligation (IMO- supported by what I believe to be thematic tones of the text) to fight against Sauron, yet apparently they did not. They were not expecting war on their borders (like the Dwarves) as evidenced by the arrival of Elladan and Elrohir. I do not suggest that every Elf in Middle-earth should have shown up for the final battle (but thank you for so courteously painting my argument as such), but I think the Elves of Rivendell in particular had a 'moral duty' to do so. Yes, I agree that Elrond et al were probably quite useful in ousting the Necromancer (though I note with amusement that this is an invention on your part, as the Hobbit text heavily implies that Elrond knew nothing of the resolution of the White Wizards). The question then becomes: "Why didn't they also help during the War of the Ring?"
I am not attempting to shift any ground. My original contention was that I believed that the behavior of the Rivendell Elves during the War of the Ring in the books contradicted the themes of the book. I have explained how I feel that one of the greatest themes of the books is the manner in which the Free Peoples unite against Sauron. They do so resolutely, without the worry that individually each of them are weak in comparison to the might of Sauron. I feel that contradiction to this theme by one of the most benevolent races in the book is an 'error'. It is not of the typographical or anachronistic variety, and hence I put it in quotation marks. This was, is and will always be MY contention. If ground has been shifted away from it, then you might look at yourself more than other posters.

 

[aragil]

You invent again. When last we see Elrond in the second film he is looking at Elves departing for the Havens with his approval and support, exactly the opposite to what you wish Rivendell Elves to do, far worse behavior than anything directly shown in the books. Stop inventing. It is implied strongly that almost all of the Rivendell Elves are leaving (getting out before Sauron or Saruman attacks). Anyone who finds Tolkien's depiction of the Rivendell Elves thematically poor should find Jackson's depiction at least as bad.

I did not invent (though thanks yet again for the compliment). The scene of the Elves departing Rivendell is immediately prior to the conversation with Galadriel, which ends with the passage I have already quoted. You might want to check up on these things before you again compliment me for my inventiveness.
The Rivendell Elves in the movies send warriors to fight, and others to the Havens. IMO this is morally superior to 'sitting it out' like the Rivendell Elves in the books. Contrary to your suggestion, I find Jackson's depiction thematically superior.

If you wish to imagine that some of Haldir's Elves were from Rivendell and wish to imagine that they were only sent out after that telepathic conference then imagine whether they travelled from Rivendell to Helm's Deep via the Jackson-Didn't-Think-About-Logistics-At-All Wormhole or by Movie-elf superspeed or by Elvish jet plan troop carrier or whatever you like. Jackson pulled this same silliness in the first film when Gandalf expects to ride to consult with Saruman and return to Bree before Frodo gets there.

Except for Haldir himself, I beleive all of the Elves were from Rivendell. I base this on the facts that:
1) the Elves equipment is exactly like the Elves belonging to Elrond during the Last Alliance, not like the Elves' equipment from Lorien;
2) Haldir gives greetings from Elrond;
3) We see Galadriel encouraging Elrond to support the other Free People's of Middle-earth, we see Elrond contemplating this while viewing a depiction of the Last Alliance before coming to a resolution, and finally we see Haldir invoking the Last Alliance in explanation of his appearance. Did I only "imagine" this, or was it in fact depicted on film?

For Elves from Lothlórien to arrive almost immediately after Théoden and his folk arrive at Helm's Deep indicates (unless one wishes to give up any attempt to make sense out of the logistics) that they must have set out very soon after the Fellowship left Lothlórien, long before that telepathic conference, unless one wishes again to imagine interdimensional wormholes or Elvish superspeed or something of the kind.

My contention is not that the Elves came from Lorien. Galadriel in the books apparently sent word to Rivendell- either telepathically, by Elven-messenger, or otherwise. I was going to provide the quote, but you have already done so yourself- Thank you. The result of Galadriel's message is that a force sets out from Rivendell. This force misses the battle of Helm's Deep by less than three days- had they been a little more direct in their route, then they would have arrived just before Saruman's forces. Of course, the Dunedain were on horse while the Elves were on foot, but I find suspension of disbelief on this level acceptable for me. It need not be so for everyone.

I suppose you could imagine that there happened to be some Rivendell Elves in Lothlórien and that they accompanied Haldir on an expedition against Saruman a day or two after the Fellowship left. But that would be your imagination fixing the error you imagine Tolkien made. Jackson makes none of this clear. I agree that originally, when Arwen was to be at Helm's Deep, at least some of those Elves would be sent by Elrond. What the case is supposed to be in the finished film ... who can tell in the resultant confusion?

You are imagining what I imagine, and are unsurprisingly incorrect. Jackson need not make every detail clear for me to be able to reason my way through it.

That Elrond was part of the Alliance between Elves and Men but Galadriel and her folk or the folk of Lothlórien were not is another of your inventions. Tolkien writes nothing of Celeborn or Galadriel's doings during the War of the Last Alliance but the burden of proof is on anyone who would claim they remained aloof or that Glorfindel or Gildor or any other Elf remained aloof. But as to the people of Lórien, in one account in the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" we are told specifically that they took part. In the book Elrond appears only as herald of Gil-galad. In the film Elrond appears as leader of at least one troop. Anything else you wish to suppose is only your imagination. Celeborn and Galadriel are not shown to be part of the fighting ... if you wish to make something of that. I doubt that Jackson intended to indicate in not specifically showing them that they and the folk they commanded did not participate.

I think you are rather missing the point here. In the film Elrond is part of the last Alliance, as indicated in many scenes. In the film Galadriel and Celeborn are not associated with the Last Alliance- there are no scenes which would suggest such. Therefore when Haldir invokes the Last Alliance in the film, it is natural for the audience to associate this with Elrond, not Galadriel. Hope that helps.

But nothing in the film indicates clearly or at all that any Elf from Rivendell fought in the war. Movie-Elrond himself, after giving his message to Aragorn in Rohan, returned to Rivendell, unlike his sons in the book.Your understanding is based on unsupported imaginings which fit neither what Tolkien wrote or what Jackson shows without extraordinary special pleading.

I have given my three reasons for why I associate the Elves with Rivendell rather than Lorien. They are not "unsupported imagings", a label which I find to be quite insulting as well as erroneous. The origin and timing of the arrival of this force is reminiscent of the Dunedain and sons of Elrond in the books, so I believe it does fit with what Tolkien wrote, and I have demonstrated how it fits quite well with what Jackson shows.
I have told you before (in no uncertain terms) that I find "special pleading" to be quite insulting. Your continued use of this as well as "Jackson Purist" makes me think that you actually prefer insulting me to having a more mannered discussion. I have no problem 'talking' with people who disagree with me- indeed I enjoy the company of the joxys, Thorins, and even Mrs. Maggotts who all have opinions different to my own on these boards. However if you continue to attack me in such an insulting manner, then I will be more than happy to spare myself the trouble of responding to your long-ish posts in the future.

 

[aragil]

That query always sounds to me more like a modern national leader pondering on whether to invade another country, for its own sake. I name no names.
The language just isn't right; it jars with Tolkien's style - now tell me it's original!

LOL! Well, at least you're learning to fear me! As far as I can tell, there is no language like this in the books- but I'm not a linguist and I don't really have an ear for such things.
I don't think the parallel with contemporary leaders is quite fair. Galadriel is prodding Elrond to help those who are in trouble because it is "the right thing to do"- in spite of the fact that Elrond does not have much to gain by aiding them, but does have much to lose. Current leaders may be more interested in the bottom line.

So Haldir, from the land of Galadriel, who has nothing to do with the matter, is the agent of Elrond.
To put it colloquially, how come? Right now, I too neither appreciate, nor understand it.
Oh, so that's what's going on when Elrond and Galadriel take turns on the screen? Such a weird idea had never occurred to me, and I'm not convinced even now! How on earth did telepathy come into all this? And why didn't ET get a guest appearance, just to keep up the novelty? Or they could have used a moth-messenger, or borrowed an owl from Hogwarts....the mind boggles.
But actually my point wasn't that; it was about Aragil's comment: "this has nothing to do with Galadriel". In that case, "how come" she got Haldir involved?

Actually joxy, now we do have precedence in the books. In Return of the King Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, and Gandalf have an extended "telepathic" conversation during the return trip to Rivendell. Also in Lorien Galadriel seems to question each member of the fellowship by offering them the chance for what they most want in return for abandoning Frodo- all this without a word being spoken. Both of these instances are of course quite local. But then there is the quote that jallan posted- where the Dunedain are "summoned" by a message from Galadriel. How the message is delivered is never specified- but it could have been another case of telepathic communication between Elrond and Galadriel, or it could have been carried by a messenger. Either way supports the film.
Personally I like to think that in the movie Haldir was sent to Rivendell as part of just such a message. He could have brought a written letter from Galadriel, in which case the "telepathic" conversation in the movie would just be a special effect as Elrond reads (and imagines hearing his mother-in-law's voice) the letter. This is of course a case of me "imagining" what is going on- it is not directly alluded to by anyone involved with the movie. However, it does have the advantage of tying up several loose ends in a simple way. Haldir is sent by Galadriel because he is a trusted messenger. He is then employed by Elrond because he is a good captain. And of course, this way there needs be no long range telecommunications other than the Palantir. Incidentally, there is some name for this Elven ability having to do with "quiet speaking", but I forgot what it is. Tar-Elenion (a resident of the book forums) once brought it up in further explanation of the Palantiri.

 

[Morgaphry]

The ability for such powerful beings to communicate using telepathy probably would not have been affected by such a mere formality as distance.

Haldir simply says that he brings word from Elrond of Rivendell. This does not mean that he received the word first-hand. We do not know if the events concerning the conference between Elrond and Galadriel happened at the moment it appeared in the film

I apologise if I sound contradictory, Aragil. I am supporting your argument, but the equipment used by the Elves at Helm's Deep was not the same as that used at the Last Alliance. The enormous, recurved mallorn longbow was exclusive to the Galadhrim, as was the armour and helmets. They were developments from the equipment of the Last Alliance using autumnal colours as a motif reflecting the waining presence of the Elven race in Middle Earth.
Jackson also stresses in his companions to the film that it was the Gladhrim that fought at Helm's Deep.
The bows at the Last Alliance were similar to Legolas' Lorien bow which was more of the traditional longbow shape.

In the book Elrond appears only as herald of Gil-galad. In the film Elrond appears as leader of at least one troop.

As herald to Gil-Galad, Elrond was his second-in-command. He would almost certainly have led the battle from the front-line as Gil-Galad oversaw all from the rear, however, the High-King had a rather nifty weapon that was thirsty for black blood.
Don't assume that heralds don't get blood on their hands. Elves didn't really fuss with egotistical terms like Commander-in-Chief and Supreme Allied Commander.

Thanks
Morgaphry

 

[joxy]

I associate the Elves with Rivendell rather than Lorien.

I see a basic problem with both alternatives: I simply don't think there were anywhere near enough elves still living in either location to provide that force. Rivendell is the Last Homely House, not a barracks or military camp. Lorien is maybe a larger area, and my guess it has the larger population, but still nowhere near enough; and again, it is no barracks or camp. The films show the two very much in accordance with the books, as PJ's visuals usually do, so the same applies to both.

 

[jallan]

Aragil posted:

He could have passed on to Eregion during that time, where his aid would have been most helpful prior to the iminent assault of Sauron. Elrond is of course the founder of the house, and appears to be the exception rather than the rule to the population.

He so appears only if your belief is accepted. Circular reasoning.

His statement does not seem to pertain to Ereginion Elves who removed to Rivendell. Those who went to Rivendell would not be in Eregion whether or not they subsequently went to the Grey Havens.

Legolas refers to an Elvish folk who built great structures of stone in Eregion and subsequently sought the Havens long ago. They are gone. You don't want to believe him. So believe what you wish without evidence. But don't expect to be convincing.

Which Elves of Eregion do you believe Legolas is talking about?

You can invent anything you like as speculation, but are in error to use such speculation as if it were what Tolkien wrote and then blame Tolkien for an error based on your speculation.

The house was founded for the refugees of Eregion- there is no indication that the soldiers of Gil-galad stayed there, or that the house is populated by Elves of various origins- these would be inventions on your part, not that they trouble me overmuch.

You do not cite Tolkien's words that you claim to be interpreting. From the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn":

When news of this reached Gil-galad, he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go ...

Then follows an account of the destruction of Eregion and the death of Celebrimbor followed by Sauron's attack on the new-arrived forces of Elrond:

Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no such force to withstand the onset.

Then a little later:

Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell).

Those are Tolkien's words. No more. Nothing about the composition of the population of Imladris when it was established, not to speak of the composition of its population at the end of the Third Age. Nothing!

No other Elves are described as living there.

But there is not even a firm statement that any Elves of Eregion ever lived there. That is just a reasonable assumption from the tenor of the narrative. No account of Imladris is concerned with relating which kinds of Elves made up its population. You argue from Tolkien's silence and (as far as the end of the Third Age goes) against the words of Legolas.

This view seems to be that 50 Elves killing 100 orcs each would not benefit anybody, would in fact be "no use at all".

Aragorn's march on the Black Gate was not based on the the possibility that dying after killing a hundred Orcs each would be useful, but was a purposeful move to misdirect Sauron's intention. Otherwise, it would have been useless considering the amount by which his forces were outnumbered. That is the kind of uselessness I am talking about. Better to save yourself until you can do some good.

The Rivendell Elves in the movies send warriors to fight, and others to the Havens. IMO this is morally superior to 'sitting it out' like the Rivendell Elves in the books. Contrary to your suggestion, I find Jackson's depiction thematically superior.

It is your belief that movie-Elrond sends warriors to fight. Many others, including Jackson supporters, do not believe this, from what appears in the final film whatever Jackson's intentions might have been at various points or in the final editing. That Elrond sent aid to Rohan was certainly intended when Arwen was part of the troop. But in the final film ...?

If your belief is what Jackson intended in the final film, he failed to make this sufficiently evident. Your observation that the equipment born by Haldir and his Elves is identical to that of Elrond's troops in the War of the Last Alliance is incorrect. The chronology, as you admit, makes the arrival of Elves from Rivendell so closely after that conference impossible if their sending was a result of that conference.

That Haldir is in charge also suggests that the Elves came from Lothlórien.

Your other two reasons for believing they were sent by Elrond stand well enough.

But the result is an incoherent mixture which fails to make sense as a whole. Your belief of necessity must deny some of what Jackson shows because what Jackson shows is not self-consistant.

Jackson need not make every detail clear for me to be able to reason my way through it.

And others reason differently.

What reason to believe that only Haldir was from Lothlórien, rather than he and another Elf, or two others Elves, or half the contingent or even most of the contingent? It's arbitary.

Therefore when Haldir invokes the Last Alliance in the film, it is natural for the audience to associate this with Elrond, not Galadriel. Hope that helps.

And because it is Haldir, it is natural for the audience to associate the troop with Galadriel, not Elrond, especially since we have seen Elrond sending off his people to the Havens. It partly depends whether they remember Haldir or not.

Also the chronology makes no sense for a troop sent out by Elrond at the most three days before their arrival at Helm's Deep. Remember: 40 days to the gap of Rohan from a point near Caradhras and then further yet to Helm's Deep. Of course going via Caradhras and the River might be faster, in which case Haldir would have joined them at that point. But the chronology is still beyond saving if they started out after that conference.

The chronology for a troop from Lothlórien sent out after that conference is impossible also, but perhaps not so obviously impossible. However the conference indicates that Elrond at that time has not sent help while nothing is said one way or the other about whether Galadriel may not previously have sent forth aid.

One has to suspend, hang, draw and quarter one's belief to make sense of all this.

He could have brought a written letter from Galadriel, in which case the "telepathic" conversation in the movie would just be a special effect as Elrond reads (and imagines hearing his mother-in-law's voice) the letter. This is of course a case of me "imagining" what is going on- it is not directly alluded to by anyone involved with the movie. However, it does have the advantage of tying up several loose ends in a simple way.

In a simple way hardly describes it. Is this either what Jackson intended or what the audience should understand? You know it isn't. It's an obvious and desperate attempt to save appearances which can't really be saved.

I do not suggest that every Elf in Middle-earth should have shown up for the final battle (but thank you for so courteously painting my argument as such), but I think the Elves of Rivendell in particular had a 'moral duty' to do so.

So where was this "final battle" to take place? Where should Elrond send his forces? Minas Tirith, Rohan, the Black Gate, the Havens, Lothlórien, to aid the Woodmen?

Sauron wasn't revealing his plans. It was not certain that full war would break out that year. Would Saruon attempt to deal with all his foes at once or piecemeal? A direct attack on Rivendell by Orcs of the Misty Mountains was not out of the question. Men in league with Saruman have partly taken over the Shire (but mostly legally).

In the films it is only Pippin's telepathic evesdropping that clues Gandalf that Minas Tirith is where Sauron may be concentrating his attack.

And in reality if you send your troops on a thirty-day march to people in desperate need of aid you are likely to arrive far too late. For book-Elrond to send forces to Minas Tirith would have meant less power to defend Imladris or to send to Lothlórien at need (or to the Havens if the Havens were attacked by Corsairs of Umbar). Even movie-Théoden does not set out for Gondor until summoned. Movie-Théoden would been sitting out the rest of the war had he not been summoned.

It is only in your imagination that the Elves of Rivendell (and the Grey Havens) in the books were intentionally sitting out the war. In the film it is otherwise. Movie-Elrond's words that his people are leaving these shores was originally taken by most, certainly by myself, as a general statement of what many Elven folk were so doing, explaining why Elvish power was shrinking and would continue to shrink. It was somewhat a shock in the second film to see that movie-Elrond meant that his own particular people, the folk of Imladris, are leaving en masse under this own guidance. Movie-Elrond, of course, at that time sees no hope in Men (or Dwarves). Accordingly, it makes good sense to get out while getting is good rather than go down with the ship. And in the films there is no particular guilt assigned to the Elves in the matter of the making of the Rings or of colluding with Sauron. Jackson avoids that issue entirely, a change in Tolkien's themes that you haven't mentioned though you make much of it in the books. There is no evidence in the films that Elves are to blame for Sauron's rise, much less the Elves of Imladris.

Your belief that movie-Elrond changed his mind and sent the a troop to aid the Rohirrim fits with parts of what was shown and contradicts or is in tension with other parts of what was shown.

 

[joxy]

....there is no language like this in the books- but I'm not a linguist and I don't really have an ear for such things.
I don't think the parallel with contemporary leaders is quite fair.
....now we do have precedents in the books. In ROTK....have an extended "telepathic" conversation during the return trip to Rivendell.

I think you DO have a pretty good ear for them - you can tell that there isn't language like that in the books.
It was the way they spoke, not the substance of what they said, that I was comparing to the speeches of glib modern politicians - I agree that it would have been unfair of me to compare the content!
The auxiliary verb "do" used to refer to any action that occurred regularly, or all the time, as in "do you go to work by subway?" or "do mice eat cheese?". When PJ gives us "Do we leave Middle-earth to its fate? Do we let them stand alone?", that ought to mean "Are we in the habit of leaving M-E to its fate, and letting them stand alone?", but of course he actually means "shall we leave them....let them....?". This change in usage, from the iterative present to the determinant future tenses, is relatively new, and that is why it sounds out of place. "Over-reacting" and "nervous system" do the same thing.

It is always a pleasure to be given a reference that provides an excuse to go back to the books, so I thank you for taking me to Homeward Bound to find the line about the silent conversation, and from there to read all the very moving chapter. The other two examples are less directly relevant. The HB reference IS only one line though, and all that intercutting betwen the characters in the films, in a totally different context, is based on that? Did one of the writers know the line, and look for an excuse to use it?
Or did they dream up the idea and then leave it to viewers with good memories to recall something to justify it? It would have been much better to have done without the idea altogether!

 

[Grond]

...Personally, I consider myself a huge fan of the books. However, I think the Rivendell Elves at Helm's Deep is an improvement over the books (and I've said this before). JRRT gives no indication that Rivendell was in any danger during the War of the Ring. However, after the council Rivendell does almost nothing to help the other free peoples- they just sit back and enjoy the free passage to the Grey Havens that is afforded to them because of the sacrifices of the realms Eastward. This in spite of the fact that Glorfindel (possibly the greatest warrior of the third age) and the remnants of the Noldor of Eregion (who were more than a leetle responsible for the whole Ring mess) were residing in Rivendell. Rivendell Elves should have fought in the War. In the movie, they did. Where's the problem?...

As I posted in a similar thread...

The Elves of Imladris didn't have the same stake in the outcome as did the Silvan Elves of Thranduil and Celeborn. Regardless of Rings of Power, Silvan Elves were going to remain on Middle-earth. They did not hear the same call as did the Noldor and other High Elves. I feel certain their numbers were already diminished by the continuing exodus of Elves who appear to have been based in Imladris. All of the westward moving Elves in the book are heading from Imladris to the Havens. Just my thoughts which could be wrong.