It has to be "lol" again, to the first one.lightingstrike said:Everyone will agree that this scene did not need the Elves in it.
The Hobbits were not even at Helms Deep so I don't know what you're talking about there.
Yes, I should have said more than just "lol"!Morgaphry said:I fail to see what is laughable about my statement that Elrond was possibly the best portrayed character in the movie.
In my opinion, the best characters were....Weaving's Elrond.
Well, I certainly didn't think that, and I can't imagine why anyone should have thought that.aragil said:I'm sure that most readers thought of Elrond as somewhat 'softer' than he appeared in the movies.
The error is yours.There is certainly an 'error' in the books. The Rivendell Elves never fight. Rivendell includes the remainders of the smiths of Eregion- the folks responsible for giving all that power to Sauron in Ring form. I suppose you could excuse them by just saying they were selfish. Personally, I prefered the way the movie handled it.
That of course would be those not slain by Sauron and his forces.They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.
Ah yes, groundlessness. The quote by Legolas explains (in part) why there were no Elves in Eregion. However, in 3 quite distinct sources we find that Elrond built Rivendell as a refuge for the Noldor. By consulting the handy dictionary I have found that a refuge is properly offered to those who are homeless or destitute. Which Noldor might be described as homeless or destitute? Why, the Noldor of Eregion, of course! Their homeland of Eregion was "laid waste". Rivendell was then founded as a refuge for them. Rivendell still existed in the Third Age, which strongly suggests that the Eregionions were also still around in the Third Age, else who would be populating the last homely house?From Appendix B, the Second Age
1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
From the Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
From that time war never ceased between Sauron and the Elves; and Eregion was laid waste, and Celebrimbor slain, and the doors of Moria were shut. In that time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was founded by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured.
From Letter 131, to Milton Waldman
Sauron became thus almost supreme in Middle-earth. The Elves held out in secret places (not yet revealed). The last Elf-Kingdom of Gilgalad is maintained precariously on the extreme west-shores, where are the havens of the Ships. Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris (in English Rivendell) on the extreme eastern margin of the western lands.
From ye Olde OED
refuge:
1. a. Shelter or protection from danger or trouble; succour sought by, or rendered to, a person. to do refuge, to give refuge or aid to one.
b. of refuge, adapted or intended for shelter or protection, as in city (see CITY 1f), country, harbour, place, port, (weapon,) of refuge; also house of refuge, an institution for sheltering the homeless or destitute.
sanctuary:
II. 5. a. A church or other sacred place in which, by the law of the mediæval church, a fugitive from justice, or a debtor, was entitled to immunity from arrest. Hence, in wider sense, applied to any place in which by law or established custom a similar immunity is secured to fugitives.
b. Applied to a similar place of refuge in a non-Christian country; an asylum.
is wrong. Military struggle against Sauron was not hopeless- it was final victory by military means that was beyond the grasp of the West at this point. Denethor's dispair might have had a reason, but still his attitude was reprehensible (IMO). The victory at the Pelannor and the subsequent display of Military force at the Morannon were two of the key components in Sauron's downfall. If those uses of Military Force hadn't occurred, then Frodo would probably not have been able to fulfill his quest. 50 Noldorin Elves would have been quite useful in either circumstance. What reason did they have for not coming?jallan said:
For me this strikes something of a chord, and it is one of the central passages of the whole book. The Elves' proposed attitude of "What can we do so why should we try?" runs extremely counter to this sentiment. I don't believe that Tolkien would ever have the Elves be so demonstrably opposite to the moral character of the rest of the book's heroes, hence to me Rivendell's neutral performance appears to be an error.But that's not the way of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually – their paths were laid that way, as you put it. But I expect they had lots of chances, like us, of turning back, only they didn't. And if they had, we shouldn't know, because they'd have been forgotten. We hear about those as just went on – and not all to a good end, mind you; at least not to what folk inside a story and not outside it call a good end
I was saying that most readers probably thought that Elrond appeared somewhat more kindly in the book than he did in the movie. Were you really disagreeing with this?soft:
II. 8. a. Of persons: Gentle or mild in nature or character; inclined to be merciful, lenient, or considerate in dealing with others; free from harshness, severity, or rigour; compassionate, kind, tender-hearted.
That query always sounds to me more like a modern national leader pondering on whether to invade another country,aragil said:When last we see Elrond in the film, he is pondering Galadriel's query: "Do we leave Middle-earth to its fate? Do we let them stand alone?".
When Haldir shows up he says "I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell....This has nothing to do with Galadriel, and everything to do with Elrond.
Small wonder that you have no appreciation for the scene if you understand so little of it!
I was saying that most readers probably thought that Elrond appeared somewhat more kindly in the book than he did in the movie. Were you really disagreeing with this?
Oh, so that's what's going on when Elrond and Galadriel take turns on the screen? Such a weird idea had never occurred to me, and I'm not convinced even now! How on earth did telepathy come into all this? And why didn't ET get a guest appearance, just to keep up the novelty? Or they could have used a moth-messenger, or borrowed an owl from Hogwarts....the mind boggles.Morgaphry said:
It doesn't even weakly suggest anything of the kind, especially when Legolas says the contrary.Rivendell still existed in the Third Age, which strongly suggests that the Eregionions were also still around in the Third Age, else who would be populating the last homely house?
Why perhaps? You are not in accord with words from Tolkien. There are no words from Tolkien that indicate any Elves anywhere in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age were the remnants of the Elves of Eregion. The only words on the subject we have are those which Tolkien gives to Legolas who says that the Elves of Eregion sought the Havens long ago.So perhaps we are now in accordance with Tolkien, via his own words?
So there were few Elves who survived Sauron's onslaught who presumably settled at that time in Rivendell along with other Elves when it was founded by Elrond and his troops. But according to Legolas those few sought the Havens long ago, possibly at the beginning of the Third Age when many Elves departed. You gratuitously invent a continued strong presence in Rivendell of Elves from Eregion to create a problem that Jackson doesn't solve in any case as he makes it quite clear that the Elves of Rivendell are mostly leaving Middle-earth.Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped ...
Again you attribute to me a view I do not hold.
This explains why the rangers came to Aragorn's aid and also explains why Elves were very unlikely to come, not because they were neutral, a silly suggestion on your part, but because they are already fighting the war on their own ground or expected that they would soon have to fight it.‘They answered a summons, as you heard,’ said Gimli. ‘Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred. Let the Dúnedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess.’
‘Nay, Galadriel,’ said Legolas. ‘Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company from the North?’
‘Yes, you have it,’ said Gimli. ‘The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires. Now why did not we wish for some of our own kinsfolk, Legolas?’
Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. ‘I do not think that any would come,’ he answered. ‘They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.’
You invent again.The Elves' proposed attitude of "What can we do so why should we try?" runs extremely counter to this sentiment. I don't believe that Tolkien would ever have the Elves be so demonstrably opposite to the moral character of the rest of the book's heroes, hence to me Rivendell's neutral performance appears to be an error.
The error is only in your mind. In the books Elves had fought against Sauron and all creatues of Morgoth and continued to do so (except those who fled Middle-earth) mostly on their own ground, just as Men fought on their own ground and Dwarves fought on their own ground. Some fled. We see human refugees from the South at Bree.How would the Movies depiction redress this error?
That it fits the themes has not been denied. Having a band of Dwarves come to help would have fit the themes also. You attempt to shift ground from your contention of error.This fits within the themes of both book and movie, and is exactly what is described in the commentary (it also very nicely presages Theoden's decision to ride to Minas Tirith, even though he knows that the Rohirrim do not have enough men to overthrow Mordor). There is no "rationalization on the fly" as you imply. It was thought out. It fits in with the themes of books and movie.
You invent again. When last we see Elrond in the second film he is looking at Elves departing for the Havens with his approval and support, exactly the opposite to what you wish Rivendell Elves to do, far worse behavior than anything directly shown in the books. Stop inventing. It is implied strongly that almost all of the Rivendell Elves are leaving (getting out before Sauron or Saruman attacks). Anyone who finds Tolkien's depiction of the Rivendell Elves thematically poor should find Jackson's depiction at least as bad.As a sidenote, what makes you say that Rivendell Elves never fight in the movies? Why do you think the Elves at Helm's Deep come from Lothlorien? Their equipment is certainly different from that which we see Haldir and his brethren wearing on the borders of that wood. However, their equipment is identical to that used by the Elves under Elrond's command in the Last Alliance. When last we see Elrond in the film, he is pondering Galadriel's query: "Do we leave Middle-earth to its fate? Do we let them stand alone?". When Haldir shows up he says "I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell. An alliance once existed between Elves and men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance." Elrond was part of that Alliance. Galadriel was not. This has nothing to do with Galadriel, and everything to do with Elrond.
Your understanding is based on unsupported imaginings which fit neither what Tolkien wrote or what Jackson shows without extraordinary special pleading.Small wonder that you have no appreciation for the scene if you understand so little of it!
Of course we don't know if Glorfindel was an Eregion Elf or not. Tolkien himself wasn't very clear on the subject. After writing the LotR he says that Glorfindel was probably sent to help Gil-galad around SA1200-1600. He could have passed on to Eregion during that time, where his aid would have been most helpful prior to the iminent assault of Sauron. Elrond is of course the founder of the house, and appears to be the exception rather than the rule to the population. The house was founded for the refugees of Eregion- there is no indication that the soldiers of Gil-galad stayed there, or that the house is populated by Elves of various origins- these would be inventions on your part, not that they trouble me overmuch.jallan said:Aragil posted:It doesn't even weakly suggest anything of the kind, especially when Legolas says the contrary.Rivendell still existed in the Third Age, which strongly suggests that the Eregionions were also still around in the Third Age, else who would be populating the last homely house?
The Last Homely House is populated by various Elves, origin not especially given. Elrond and Glorfindel were certainly not folk of Eregion.
'Perhaps' was meant to gently suggest that you were in error, rather than attempting to rub your face in it. I see that with you gentleness is ridiculed rather than reciprocated.jallan said:Why perhaps? You are not in accord with words from Tolkien. There are no words from Tolkien that indicate any Elves anywhere in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age were the remnants of the Elves of Eregion. The only words on the subject we have are those which Tolkien gives to Legolas who says that the Elves of Eregion sought the Havens long ago.
You can suppose that Legolas' words need not apply to every last Elf from Eregion, not unreasonably. But that is your supposition. Nothing in Tolkien supports it.
"Such few" is a relative term, pertaining to the original population of Eregion. Wether it could be generally called "few" is anybody's guess, but ultimately irrelevent. I do not believe Legolas's statement pertains to these "few", for reasons I have already stated. I believe there is very strong evidence that the Elves of Eregion still inhabited Rivendell, so thank you very much but no need to attribute gratioutous invention to me.jallan said:Tolkien says in the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn":So there were few Elves who survived Sauron's onslaught who presumably settled at that time in Rivendell along with other Elves when it was founded by Elrond and his troops. But according to Legolas those few sought the Havens long ago, possibly at the beginning of the Third Age when many Elves departed. You gratuitously invent a continued strong presence in Rivendell of Elves from Eregion to create a problem that Jackson doesn't solve in any case as he makes it quite clear that the Elves of Rivendell are mostly leaving Middle-earth.Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped ...
I don't think this was a strawman argument. You specifically statedjallan said:Again you attribute to me a view I do not hold.
Strawman arguments against what is not my view don't strengthen your arguments.
This view seems to be that 50 Elves killing 100 orcs each would not benefit anybody, would in fact be "no use at all". I mentioned the Dunedain (who only numbered 30 and who probably didn't kill 100 orcs apiece) as a force which I believed was useful. I believe that pointing out where you are in error does strengthen my arguments. Have I somehow misconstrued your argument here?{The Noldor of Eregion} might take 100 times their number in Orcs with them ... and it wouldn't help anyone, would be no use at all.
The Elves of which Legolas is speaking are his kinsfolk, not to be confused with the Elves of Rivendell. There is no indication that the Rivendell Elves were expecting an attack, and indeed Elladan and Elrohir come because they were "desiring to go to the war"- if war was expected on their own borders they would hardly need to bother with the journey.jallan said:They came because they were summoned and they thought they were summoned by Aragorn, though in fact the request for help was sent by Galadriel:This explains why the rangers came to Aragorn's aid and also explains why Elves were very unlikely to come, not because they were neutral, a silly suggestion on your part, but because they are already fighting the war on their own ground or expected that they would soon have to fight it.‘They answered a summons, as you heard,’ said Gimli. ‘Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred. Let the Dúnedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess.’
‘Nay, Galadriel,’ said Legolas. ‘Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company from the North?’
‘Yes, you have it,’ said Gimli. ‘The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires. Now why did not we wish for some of our own kinsfolk, Legolas?’
Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. ‘I do not think that any would come,’ he answered. ‘They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.’
I did not invent, but thank you for suggesting that I accomplished such an admirable action. You stated that 50 Elves would not be able to accomplish much, and implied that this excused them from sending troops in the first place. I label this as an attitude of "What can we do so why should we try?". I showed a quote of Tolkien's describing how in "the stories that mattered" it is important to try, even when there is small hope of success. What part of this is so creative as to be invention?jallan said:You invent again.The Elves' proposed attitude of "What can we do so why should we try?" runs extremely counter to this sentiment. I don't believe that Tolkien would ever have the Elves be so demonstrably opposite to the moral character of the rest of the book's heroes, hence to me Rivendell's neutral performance appears to be an error.
Many Elves were willing to give up- and I don't have much of a problem with that. However, many Elves continued to live in Rivendell during the War of the Ring. Since these Elves were from Eregion, they had a moral obligation (IMO- supported by what I believe to be thematic tones of the text) to fight against Sauron, yet apparently they did not. They were not expecting war on their borders (like the Dwarves) as evidenced by the arrival of Elladan and Elrohir. I do not suggest that every Elf in Middle-earth should have shown up for the final battle (but thank you for so courteously painting my argument as such), but I think the Elves of Rivendell in particular had a 'moral duty' to do so. Yes, I agree that Elrond et al were probably quite useful in ousting the Necromancer (though I note with amusement that this is an invention on your part, as the Hobbit text heavily implies that Elrond knew nothing of the resolution of the White Wizards). The question then becomes: "Why didn't they also help during the War of the Ring?"jallan said:In fact many Elves were willing to give up the fight and had gone from Middle-earth or were leaving, fleeing the troubles of Middle-earth. That is in the book and the film. It is quite realistic. Many Elves also stayed. Elrond and Rivendell are not neutral in the book. The last Noldor in Middle-earth only all departed after the victory. One must also presume that Elrond (as a member of the White Council) along with his folk was strongly involved in the driving out of Sauron from Dol Guldur as told in The Hobbit.
It happened simply as an "historical" fact that Rivendell and the Grey Havens (and probably other small Elvish settlements we are not told about) were not attacked before the ending of the War (which came extraordinarily quickly). That Tolkien did not artificially contrive that every group of Elves be directly involved in battle is hardly an error.The error is only in your mind. In the books Elves had fought against Sauron and all creatues of Morgoth and continued to do so (except those who fled Middle-earth) mostly on their own ground, just as Men fought on their own ground and Dwarves fought on their own ground. Some fled. We see human refugees from the South at Bree.That it fits the themes has not been denied. Having a band of Dwarves come to help would have fit the themes also.
You attempt to shift ground from your contention of error.
I did not invent (though thanks yet again for the compliment). The scene of the Elves departing Rivendell is immediately prior to the conversation with Galadriel, which ends with the passage I have already quoted. You might want to check up on these things before you again compliment me for my inventiveness.jallan said:You invent again. When last we see Elrond in the second film he is looking at Elves departing for the Havens with his approval and support, exactly the opposite to what you wish Rivendell Elves to do, far worse behavior than anything directly shown in the books. Stop inventing. It is implied strongly that almost all of the Rivendell Elves are leaving (getting out before Sauron or Saruman attacks). Anyone who finds Tolkien's depiction of the Rivendell Elves thematically poor should find Jackson's depiction at least as bad.
Except for Haldir himself, I beleive all of the Elves were from Rivendell. I base this on the facts that:jallan said:If you wish to imagine that some of Haldir's Elves were from Rivendell and wish to imagine that they were only sent out after that telepathic conference then imagine whether they travelled from Rivendell to Helm's Deep via the Jackson-Didn't-Think-About-Logistics-At-All Wormhole or by Movie-elf superspeed or by Elvish jet plan troop carrier or whatever you like. Jackson pulled this same silliness in the first film when Gandalf expects to ride to consult with Saruman and return to Bree before Frodo gets there.
My contention is not that the Elves came from Lorien. Galadriel in the books apparently sent word to Rivendell- either telepathically, by Elven-messenger, or otherwise. I was going to provide the quote, but you have already done so yourself- Thank you. The result of Galadriel's message is that a force sets out from Rivendell. This force misses the battle of Helm's Deep by less than three days- had they been a little more direct in their route, then they would have arrived just before Saruman's forces. Of course, the Dunedain were on horse while the Elves were on foot, but I find suspension of disbelief on this level acceptable for me. It need not be so for everyone.jallan said:For Elves from Lothlórien to arrive almost immediately after Théoden and his folk arrive at Helm's Deep indicates (unless one wishes to give up any attempt to make sense out of the logistics) that they must have set out very soon after the Fellowship left Lothlórien, long before that telepathic conference, unless one wishes again to imagine interdimensional wormholes or Elvish superspeed or something of the kind.
You are imagining what I imagine, and are unsurprisingly incorrect. Jackson need not make every detail clear for me to be able to reason my way through it.jallan said:I suppose you could imagine that there happened to be some Rivendell Elves in Lothlórien and that they accompanied Haldir on an expedition against Saruman a day or two after the Fellowship left. But that would be your imagination fixing the error you imagine Tolkien made. Jackson makes none of this clear. I agree that originally, when Arwen was to be at Helm's Deep, at least some of those Elves would be sent by Elrond. What the case is supposed to be in the finished film ... who can tell in the resultant confusion?
I think you are rather missing the point here. In the film Elrond is part of the last Alliance, as indicated in many scenes. In the film Galadriel and Celeborn are not associated with the Last Alliance- there are no scenes which would suggest such. Therefore when Haldir invokes the Last Alliance in the film, it is natural for the audience to associate this with Elrond, not Galadriel. Hope that helps.jallan said:That Elrond was part of the Alliance between Elves and Men but Galadriel and her folk or the folk of Lothlórien were not is another of your inventions. Tolkien writes nothing of Celeborn or Galadriel's doings during the War of the Last Alliance but the burden of proof is on anyone who would claim they remained aloof or that Glorfindel or Gildor or any other Elf remained aloof. But as to the people of Lórien, in one account in the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" we are told specifically that they took part. In the book Elrond appears only as herald of Gil-galad. In the film Elrond appears as leader of at least one troop. Anything else you wish to suppose is only your imagination. Celeborn and Galadriel are not shown to be part of the fighting ... if you wish to make something of that. I doubt that Jackson intended to indicate in not specifically showing them that they and the folk they commanded did not participate.
I have given my three reasons for why I associate the Elves with Rivendell rather than Lorien. They are not "unsupported imagings", a label which I find to be quite insulting as well as erroneous. The origin and timing of the arrival of this force is reminiscent of the Dunedain and sons of Elrond in the books, so I believe it does fit with what Tolkien wrote, and I have demonstrated how it fits quite well with what Jackson shows.jallan said:But nothing in the film indicates clearly or at all that any Elf from Rivendell fought in the war. Movie-Elrond himself, after giving his message to Aragorn in Rohan, returned to Rivendell, unlike his sons in the book.Your understanding is based on unsupported imaginings which fit neither what Tolkien wrote or what Jackson shows without extraordinary special pleading.
LOL! Well, at least you're learning to fear me! As far as I can tell, there is no language like this in the books- but I'm not a linguist and I don't really have an ear for such things.joxy said:That query always sounds to me more like a modern national leader pondering on whether to invade another country, for its own sake. I name no names.
The language just isn't right; it jars with Tolkien's style - now tell me it's original!
Actually joxy, now we do have precedence in the books. In Return of the King Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, and Gandalf have an extended "telepathic" conversation during the return trip to Rivendell. Also in Lorien Galadriel seems to question each member of the fellowship by offering them the chance for what they most want in return for abandoning Frodo- all this without a word being spoken. Both of these instances are of course quite local. But then there is the quote that jallan posted- where the Dunedain are "summoned" by a message from Galadriel. How the message is delivered is never specified- but it could have been another case of telepathic communication between Elrond and Galadriel, or it could have been carried by a messenger. Either way supports the film.joxy said:So Haldir, from the land of Galadriel, who has nothing to do with the matter, is the agent of Elrond.
To put it colloquially, how come? Right now, I too neither appreciate, nor understand it.
Oh, so that's what's going on when Elrond and Galadriel take turns on the screen? Such a weird idea had never occurred to me, and I'm not convinced even now! How on earth did telepathy come into all this? And why didn't ET get a guest appearance, just to keep up the novelty? Or they could have used a moth-messenger, or borrowed an owl from Hogwarts....the mind boggles.
But actually my point wasn't that; it was about Aragil's comment: "this has nothing to do with Galadriel". In that case, "how come" she got Haldir involved?
In the book Elrond appears only as herald of Gil-galad. In the film Elrond appears as leader of at least one troop.
I see a basic problem with both alternatives: I simply don't think there were anywhere near enough elves still living in either location to provide that force. Rivendell is the Last Homely House, not a barracks or military camp. Lorien is maybe a larger area, and my guess it has the larger population, but still nowhere near enough; and again, it is no barracks or camp. The films show the two very much in accordance with the books, as PJ's visuals usually do, so the same applies to both.aragil said:
He so appears only if your belief is accepted. Circular reasoning.
Legolas refers to an Elvish folk who built great structures of stone in Eregion and subsequently sought the Havens long ago. They are gone. You don't want to believe him. So believe what you wish without evidence. But don't expect to be convincing.His statement does not seem to pertain to Ereginion Elves who removed to Rivendell. Those who went to Rivendell would not be in Eregion whether or not they subsequently went to the Grey Havens.
You do not cite Tolkien's words that you claim to be interpreting. From the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn":The house was founded for the refugees of Eregion- there is no indication that the soldiers of Gil-galad stayed there, or that the house is populated by Elves of various origins- these would be inventions on your part, not that they trouble me overmuch.
Then follows an account of the destruction of Eregion and the death of Celebrimbor followed by Sauron's attack on the new-arrived forces of Elrond:When news of this reached Gil-galad, he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go ...
Then a little later:Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no such force to withstand the onset.
Those are Tolkien's words. No more. Nothing about the composition of the population of Imladris when it was established, not to speak of the composition of its population at the end of the Third Age. Nothing!Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell).
But there is not even a firm statement that any Elves of Eregion ever lived there. That is just a reasonable assumption from the tenor of the narrative. No account of Imladris is concerned with relating which kinds of Elves made up its population. You argue from Tolkien's silence and (as far as the end of the Third Age goes) against the words of Legolas.No other Elves are described as living there.
Aragorn's march on the Black Gate was not based on the the possibility that dying after killing a hundred Orcs each would be useful, but was a purposeful move to misdirect Sauron's intention. Otherwise, it would have been useless considering the amount by which his forces were outnumbered. That is the kind of uselessness I am talking about. Better to save yourself until you can do some good.This view seems to be that 50 Elves killing 100 orcs each would not benefit anybody, would in fact be "no use at all".
It is your belief that movie-Elrond sends warriors to fight. Many others, including Jackson supporters, do not believe this, from what appears in the final film whatever Jackson's intentions might have been at various points or in the final editing. That Elrond sent aid to Rohan was certainly intended when Arwen was part of the troop. But in the final film ...?The Rivendell Elves in the movies send warriors to fight, and others to the Havens. IMO this is morally superior to 'sitting it out' like the Rivendell Elves in the books. Contrary to your suggestion, I find Jackson's depiction thematically superior.
And others reason differently.Jackson need not make every detail clear for me to be able to reason my way through it.
And because it is Haldir, it is natural for the audience to associate the troop with Galadriel, not Elrond, especially since we have seen Elrond sending off his people to the Havens. It partly depends whether they remember Haldir or not.Therefore when Haldir invokes the Last Alliance in the film, it is natural for the audience to associate this with Elrond, not Galadriel. Hope that helps.
In a simple way hardly describes it. Is this either what Jackson intended or what the audience should understand? You know it isn't. It's an obvious and desperate attempt to save appearances which can't really be saved.He could have brought a written letter from Galadriel, in which case the "telepathic" conversation in the movie would just be a special effect as Elrond reads (and imagines hearing his mother-in-law's voice) the letter. This is of course a case of me "imagining" what is going on- it is not directly alluded to by anyone involved with the movie. However, it does have the advantage of tying up several loose ends in a simple way.
So where was this "final battle" to take place? Where should Elrond send his forces? Minas Tirith, Rohan, the Black Gate, the Havens, Lothlórien, to aid the Woodmen?I do not suggest that every Elf in Middle-earth should have shown up for the final battle (but thank you for so courteously painting my argument as such), but I think the Elves of Rivendell in particular had a 'moral duty' to do so.
I think you DO have a pretty good ear for them - you can tell that there isn't language like that in the books.aragil said:....there is no language like this in the books- but I'm not a linguist and I don't really have an ear for such things.
I don't think the parallel with contemporary leaders is quite fair.
....now we do have precedents in the books. In ROTK....have an extended "telepathic" conversation during the return trip to Rivendell.
As I posted in a similar thread...aragil said:...Personally, I consider myself a huge fan of the books. However, I think the Rivendell Elves at Helm's Deep is an improvement over the books (and I've said this before). JRRT gives no indication that Rivendell was in any danger during the War of the Ring. However, after the council Rivendell does almost nothing to help the other free peoples- they just sit back and enjoy the free passage to the Grey Havens that is afforded to them because of the sacrifices of the realms Eastward. This in spite of the fact that Glorfindel (possibly the greatest warrior of the third age) and the remnants of the Noldor of Eregion (who were more than a leetle responsible for the whole Ring mess) were residing in Rivendell. Rivendell Elves should have fought in the War. In the movie, they did. Where's the problem?...
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