Durin VII - "The Decline of TTF" and Moria

[Uminya]

I think Turgon has the gist of it, really. Veterans and Experts really start to miss the point of it all after a time, and what keeps a community thriving is not for a resurrection of dinosaurs, but of change and new blood. TTF is not great because of it's crusty old farts who already know (or at least claim to know) everything there is to know about Tolkien, but of the new people that come here with fresh new questions and a thirst for things that they don't yet know. I envy them, for the world is still a mystery to those who know little of it, and they have the chance to feel the ecstasy of uncovering new things at every turn.

TTF will live on, as long as we continue to get fresh new faces with fresh, new questions. We stale, old fixtures are simply that

 

[Illuin]

I'm liking this cyberspace thing. The young that have been here in the forums forever call themselves old, and the old farts like me who are newbies in the forum are viewed as the young. I can live with that. By the way, this debate is really bizarre. Why doesn’t everyone young (like me ) and old join the party and simply have some fun. I’m just not gettin' this whole thing, but maybe it's just me .

 

[Firawyn]

I think Turgon has the gist of it, really. Veterans and Experts really start to miss the point of it all after a time, and what keeps a community thriving is not for a resurrection of dinosaurs, but of change and new blood. TTF is not great because of it's crusty old farts who already know (or at least claim to know) everything there is to know about Tolkien, but of the new people that come here with fresh new questions and a thirst for things that they don't yet know. I envy them, for the world is still a mystery to those who know little of it, and they have the chance to feel the ecstasy of uncovering new things at every turn.

TTF will live on, as long as we continue to get fresh new faces with fresh, new questions. We stale, old fixtures are simply that

I agree with this, to a point Cir. I've been here, what - almost 6 years now? I still don't claim to know a fraction of Tolkien's collected works. I think that's why I love Tolkien so much - because it will take me a lifetime to even begin to think that I know all there is to know about Tolkien.

What we "stale, old fixtures", need to do is step back, and start to ask questions to which we don't already know the answers to. I see it so often - people post threads to start a discussion on a topic that they have already done mounds of research on. For example (because I am as guilty of this as the next one!), I tend to linger in the LotR forums because that's what I'm most familiar with. However, I rarely enter the Sil section because I don't know enough about the Sil to even begin to look intelligent! For myself (call it a late new years resolution), I'm going to start spending more time in the Sil forums, because I want to learn more! "The old that is strong does not wither." Sound familiar?



Now, back to you, Úlairi -

Yes, Mum!

Start that and I'll find some way to magically put soap in your mouth next time you speak before you think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:19
... I will make you fishers of men.

Nothing wrong with a little fishing from time to time, Firawyn.

Oh. So cute. And perfect comeback, I have to admit. But, I stand my ground - we are not your pray to be hunted, whatever word picture you want to use.

I don't consider someone who meanders into a thread and personally attacks people without justification to feel better about their own mediocrity, especially when they also complain of it, to be a valuable member of anything whatsoever.

Well that is just your very sad opinion. Every single creature (this is in the Bible somewhere, probably somewhere in the plural form) has value in the eyes of the Creator. Don't play the God/Bible card if you don't want it to be used against you, Úlairi.

And this, Firawyn, if you haven't noticed, is exactly what I was discussing above before Turgon whinged about how no one missed him and how pothetic we all were. Turgon deviated from this concept of a collective mentality of propogation of this forum to further splendour and had to make it all about his insignificant self. That... is just too damn low without having to comment about it.

Oh? So you felt justified to lash out in return? You may want to try practicing what you preach sometime.

Fortunately in life, you often get to choose who is in your team. Shame you can't do it here...

No one is making you be a member of TTF. If you don't like the team, you are quite free to quit.

 

[Úlairi]

What’s the problem with posting anything you want (in good taste)?

Well, it depends on how you define good taste. I myself find it to be in good taste to defend my position after being insulted. Unfortunately the problem with posting anything you want in that context is that you get overbearing moderators being sarcastic and chucking infraction points at you.

TTF will live on, as long as we continue to get fresh new faces with fresh, new questions. We stale, old fixtures are simply that

Guess there's really no point in us being here anymore then, is there Cir?

I envy them, for the world is still a mystery to those who know little of it, and they have the chance to feel the ecstasy of uncovering new things at every turn.

Those who think they know little often know much; and those who think they know much often know little. I think you'd be astounded with how little you actually know, Ciryaher.

I’m just not gettin' this whole thing, but maybe it's just me .

Me neither, Big Blue.

What we "stale, old fixtures", need to do is step back, and start to ask questions to which we don't already know the answers to. I see it so often - people post threads to start a discussion on a topic that they have already done mounds of research on.

And I've been doing this quite often (such as Tolkien's Eden and The Life of the Silmarils - this one in particular) and thank God for Alcuin. That guy is fantastic. I'm adding him to my Durin VII list.

Start that and I'll find some way to magically put soap in your mouth next time you speak before you think.

Yes, with the Ring of Lavender Soapy Power.

Oh. So cute. And perfect comeback, I have to admit. But, I stand my ground - we are not your pray to be hunted, whatever word picture you want to use.

*drops TTF newbie carcass at the feet of Firawyn*

Guess I should stop talking with my mouth full then? And no, it ain't full of the other thing.

Well that is just your very sad opinion. Every single creature (this is in the Bible somewhere, probably somewhere in the plural form) has value in the eyes of the Creator. Don't play the God/Bible card if you don't want it to be used against you, Úlairi.

I think there's something about an eye for an eye in there, somewhere.

Sorry, what was that? I can't really see how your playing the Bible card against me when it's in the Bible somewhere in the plural form. Little too ambiguous for any card to be played really.

Oh? So you felt justified to lash out in return? You may want to try practicing what you preach sometime.

Eye for an eye? I see no problem in self-defence - unfortunately there is only one way you can do it on an internet board - and walking away isn't defending yourself (unless its physical).

No one is making you be a member of TTF. If you don't like the team, you are quite free to quit.

And I know this is the growing collective sentiment about my presence here. If you want to trade in this stale, old, used car for a brand new shiny one with no engine that's perfectly fine. I'm considering it.

Cheers and all the best,

Úlairi.

 

[chrysophalax]

Good grief, not again.

First of all, as far as I know, only one moderator sanctioned Ulairi, not all of us.

Secondly, why do members have to go after each other on a personal level? There are some among us that live very difficult lives outside this forum and they come here to escape. If they happen to get a bit testy, so what? As long as they don't get personal, let them rant! That's one reason we have the Real Life Rantings Thread.

Thirdly, if any member has a problem, take it to a Mod and let them deal with it rather than spread it all over the forum for everyone to see. Internal strife is never a good thing and hardly encouraging to our new members. I know many of us act like we're family, but is it necessary to be a dysfunctional one? Play nice!

 

[HLGStrider]

I think where TTF gets ugly is when we decide to start these side threads defending and attacking each others actions.

Honestly, I've been looking for the button, but I know there used to be a way to ignore a poster so that you can't see what they are typing. Is this option still available?

If it is I suggest the following: If you think a person has nothing to offer or is hell bent on just annoying/insulting you, hit that button, pretend they don't exist. It is so much better than going back and forth with someone who is obviously never going to agree with you.


As a mod I don't like to censor anyone (I make an exception for crude language, I generally edit that out with a passion because I know how young I was when I joined the forum and I want this place to be safe for people who were as innocent as I was back then). However, I have had issues with people on this forum in the past and have come to realize some people just don't like me as a person, this will taint their view of whatever opinion I have, and therefore arguing with them is completely pointless.

Rather than take a heavy handed authoritarian approach (ie have the mods take care of this) I would really like to see people just being choosy about what they respond to, sort of turning off the TV instead of calling the FCC and complaining about the trash on the networks.

 

[Firawyn]

Good grief, not again.

Secondly, why do members have to go after each other on a personal level? There are some among us that live very difficult lives outside this forum and they come here to escape. If they happen to get a bit testy, so what? As long as they don't get personal, let them rant! That's one reason we have the Real Life Rantings Thread.

Thirdly, if any member has a problem, take it to a Mod and let them deal with it rather than spread it all over the forum for everyone to see. Internal strife is never a good thing and hardly encouraging to our new members. I know many of us act like we're family, but is it necessary to be a dysfunctional one? Play nice!

I think, Chrys, as you pointed out, alot of us do view TTF as a sort of family. You are quite correct in saying we by no means are required to be a dysfunctional one! I'll back down.

However, in light of this, I have to say that it is because of that very fact that Úlairi, myself, and I'm quite sure many others, feel the need to defend ourselves so strongly when insulted.

*drops TTF newbie carcass at the feet of Firawyn*
.

I rest my case. That's disgusting.

Rather than take a heavy handed authoritarian approach (ie have the mods take care of this) I would really like to see people just being choosy about what they respond to, sort of turning off the TV instead of calling the FCC and complaining about the trash on the networks.

While this sounds brilliant in theory, in practice it would kill TTF completely. People will post less and less, and in time find no reason to post at all, and by your analogy, "throw the TV out."

 

[Uminya]

Well, it depends on how you define good taste. I myself find it to be in good taste to defend my position after being insulted. Unfortunately the problem with posting anything you want in that context is that you get overbearing moderators being sarcastic and chucking infraction points at you.

Perhaps the fault lies with you, and not just with the Moderators? This site has VERY lenient moderators, and I think that if you receive a warning, it is for a good reason.

Guess there's really no point in us being here anymore then, is there Cir?

I still haunt this place because I have an affection for the people here. I feel like I have little to contribute by way of discussion on Tolkien anymore, as the discussions that take place seem more like theses monologued in front of a cold audience moreso than friendly discussion amongst friends at--say--a pub.

Those who think they know little often know much; and those who think they know much often know little. I think you'd be astounded with how little you actually know, Ciryaher.

I'm very aware of my own ignorance, and--as time goes by--my memories of what I once knew slowly decay and erode. That will change, of course, whenever I feel the urge to pick up the HoME books again; but I don't have them with me. When I do actually have a question or a thought, I am often compelled to not bother asking it here, because I don't want to be talked down to. *shrug*

 

[HLGStrider]

While this sounds brilliant in theory, in practice it would kill TTF completely. People will post less and less, and in time find no reason to post at all, and by your analogy, "throw the TV out."

Well, my theory does assume that people only have one or two people they'd do this to.

 

[Uminya]

You can ignore a person by clicking their name and going to their public profile. Below their name will be a dropdown box called "User Lists" which allows you to add that member to your "Ignore" list.

Just FYI.

 

[Firawyn]

Well, my theory does assume that people only have one or two people they'd do this to.

Never assume anything. It will make an a s s (of) u (and) me.

However, I was referring to what you said regarding people being more choosy in what they reply to.

 

[Walter]

TTF had quite a few valuable contributors back then, the most knowledgeable of which - IMHO - were indeed Jallan and Cian.

But to keep an online-community like TTF alive and kicking it takes more than just the knowledgeable and well-read "loremasters". Many good-humored and openminded people who enjoyed reading and discussing Tolkien's works also crowded this place and made it a comfortable place for everyone - most of the time that is...

And there were a few, like Harad and some others, TTF - again IMHO - could've easily done without. Some got banned, others not, a few are still here, I noticed. Such people can easily generate a climate where communications become poisoned for quite a while.

I'm not sure whether it were just the upcoming films which kept TTF busy or if there were other reasons, why this place has gotten so quiet in the past few years. But still, TTF doesn't resemble Moria, not yet...

 

[Ancalagon]

You tend to see these threads pop up every so often, yearning for glory days of full flowing debates and discussions. From what I see those discussions of Tolkiens work continue here unabated, contributed to by both old and new members alike and are still as intriguing to read as ever they were.

Oddly enough, I recall threads bemoaning the demise of the forum even when the forum was at its most active and yet here we are, years down the line and still The Tolkien Forum is going strong.

Personally, I am not well versed on Tolkiens works anymore (not that I ever was, compared to the likes of Cian, Jallan and many others). For me to return with gusto and offer worthwhile contribution would mean simply starting at the beginning and taking a full autumn/winter to re-read the works, starting with The Hobbit. I have no doubt that will happen but not in the foreseeable future.
Interestingly, a lot of people will start with the hobbit soon enough no doubt bringing new, thirsty minds out of the woodwork looking for a forum to debate the burning questions that have been discussed in great detail over the last decade. All I can say is encourage the debate no matter how many times the question has been asked before, but just please don't post links telling them to read some archived thread. I was guilty of that myself at times in the past and regret it now.

One other point to note, The Tolkien Forum has long outlasted other extremely notable Tolkien forums that didn't survive long enough to see the Hobbit being made. I suspect it will continue to last for as long as it takes Unfinished Tales to be serialised on network television! And of course, as long as the owner continues to provide it for us all to enjoy

Nice to see you all btw

 

[Ithrynluin]

Nice to see some old f...riends p) like Walt and Anc pop in again. We've been missing the creaking of wheelchairs lately.

Great to see you, fellas!

 

[Walter]

Nice to see some old f...riends p) like Walt and Anc pop in again. We've been missing the creaking of wheelchairs lately.

Great to see you, fellas!

Wheelchairs, huh?

 

[Turgon]

Wheelchairs, huh?

Pfft... Walter was using a wheel chair five years ago - I'm sure he's moved on to a bathchair by now...

 

[Ancalagon]

Most likely a luxury, floating commode

 

[chrysophalax]

Wow, I've missed you guys! Now, where's the Balrog Lord??

 

[Úlairi]

Perhaps the fault lies with you, and not just with the Moderators? This site has VERY lenient moderators, and I think that if you receive a warning, it is for a good reason.

Alright, I'm going to say this and that will be my peace.

Frankly I'm astounded that nothing (including your exaybachay comment, Ciryaher) constituted a personal attack in [URL="http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?t=19410[/URL"]this thread[/URL] (including my own) and yet calling Turgon a "whimpering whiner" is? I find that to be an utterly ridiculous double-standard. It's rather obvious I was the one penalized because of the inevitable bias of previous forum history. I was accused of doing so with no justification whatsoever. I recommend you actually go back and read the thread. So no, Cir, there was no good reason at all; except for the sheer enjoyment of playing pin the tail on the donkey.

I still haunt this place because I have an affection for the people here. I feel like I have little to contribute by way of discussion on Tolkien anymore, as the discussions that take place seem more like theses monologued in front of a cold audience moreso than friendly discussion amongst friends at--say--a pub.

Being told that I'm stale and old (whilst obviously not being a personal attack at all ) simply undermines anything that I try to accomplish here. Virtually I'm just being told to shut-up, pack my bags and move on as what I post is ultimately irrelevant anyway. If you want to go to the pub - do so; I'm not stopping you! Hell, I went and got s**t-faced the other night with some mates. It's so damn fulfilling and life-changing.

I'm very aware of my own ignorance, and--as time goes by--my memories of what I once knew slowly decay and erode. That will change, of course, whenever I feel the urge to pick up the HoME books again; but I don't have them with me. When I do actually have a question or a thought, I am often compelled to not bother asking it here, because I don't want to be talked down to. *shrug*

.
Likewise, which is why I try to renew it with people such as yourself instead of just waiting for people to come in so you can constructively criticize their less-informed opinions. It's just plain boring. I hate shooting for fish in a barrel.

If it is I suggest the following: If you think a person has nothing to offer or is hell bent on just annoying/insulting you, hit that button, pretend they don't exist. It is so much better than going back and forth with someone who is obviously never going to agree with you.

And you're getting this idea from one personal insult? Honestly, if you want to switch me off then tell me to go away. I can guarantee you if there is enough of you that want me to do so I'll be more than happy to oblige. I can take personal attacks; they often precipitate more animated and interesting discussions in threads. Everyone seems far to damn apathetic these days and complain when such an incredibly weak comment is made about another member.

Such people can easily generate a climate where communications become poisoned for quite a while.

It's an internet forum where despite "poisoned communications" arise from time to time; but ultimately sticks and stones can never be used here.

Someone who flagrantly and without provocation insults people at random (and I acknowledge that and accepted my ban from TTF for that behaviour) most definitely deserve to be reprimanded - but not when those "sticks and stones" are mixed with the mortar of inflamed words to build a defence against such attacks. One just often gets sick of being the forum scapegoat because of their ancient reputation.

Nice to see you all btw

Spectacular to see you issuing forth once more from depths of Thangorodrim, O Great Winged and Decrepit Dragon!

Cheers,

Úlairi.

 

[Aulë]

I'm going to keep this short and sweet.

People on this forum are a sensitive bunch. But arguing with them is a fruitless effort since they are also stubborn as mules.