How does the 🧝Elves going over to Valinor work?

[holly13]

The way I have always took it was that the time of the Elves was over during the events of the Lord of the Rings, and they had limited time to be in Middle-Earth and go to Valinor (would that mean they would be mortal if they never went, or decided to go too late?), and that's why so many began going over when the Third Age was heading towards it's end. I don't know why, but I assumed that the ship carrying Bilbo, Frodo, Galadriel and Gandalf was the final "official" ship to go, but then found out Celeborn, Legolas and a few other Elves went much later, but by then wouldn't the time of the Elves be over? How much longer could Elves be in Middle-Earth? At what point would it be too late, and what would happen to them?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Informative post by Galin here:

http://thetolkien.forum/index.php?threads/why-were-the-elves-leaving-middle-earth.23548/

And welcome to the forum, Holly13!

 

[Elthir]

I think the ship that Frodo, Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond (and others) took was called the "Last Ship" due to its historical significance, and for me, this gives it a poetic air too, even if it wasn't technically the last ship.

Here's a bit about the Lingerers -- faded Elves who remained in Middle-earth, referred to in the linked thread (thanks for the vote of confidence, SES) -- when faded they were: "therefore not dependent for mere existence upon the material of Arda." Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, author's note 7

Compare to Laws And Customs concerning "fading" (from the perspective of a mortal author, possibly Elfwine): "... and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed."

I think this is sort of hinted at in the 1977 Silmarillion too, chapter Of Men: "Their bodies were indeed of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time."

The Houseless, on the other hand, were, generally speaking, Elven spirits whose bodies had perished (as opposed to bodies that had faded), but still refused the summons West -- but both these (my) descriptions are relatively brief compared to what is said about these Elves in Morgoth's Ring.

I'd guess a certain professor we know met a Lingerer or two in his day

 

[holly13]

Informative post by Galin here:

http://thetolkien.forum/index.php?threads/why-were-the-elves-leaving-middle-earth.23548/

And welcome to the forum, Holly13!

Thank you!

I think the ship that Frodo, Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond (and others) took was called the "Last Ship" due to its historical significance, and for me, this gives it a poetic air too, even if it wasn't technically the last ship.

Here's a bit about the Lingerers -- faded Elves who remained in Middle-earth, referred to in the linked thread (thanks for the vote of confidence, SES) -- when faded they were: "therefore not dependent for mere existence upon the material of Arda." Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, author's note 7

Compare to Laws And Customs concerning "fading" (from the perspective of a mortal author, possibly Elfwine): "... and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed."

I think this is sort of hinted at in the 1977 Silmarillion too, chapter Of Men: "Their bodies were indeed of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time."

The Houseless, on the other hand, were, generally speaking, Elven spirits whose bodies had perished (as opposed to bodies that had faded), but still refused the summons West -- but both these (my) descriptions are relatively brief compared to what is said about these Elves in Morgoth's Ring.

I'd guess a certain professor we know met a Lingerer or two in his day

Yes, I do think now that the so-called final ship was simply a moment of historical significance when it happened at the end of the Third Age. Thanks for the info on the Houseless and Lingerers - I completely forgot about them! I took the Houseless to mean Elves that had actually died but would not go to the Halls of Mandos. I found a theory once that proposed Old Man Willow was actually possessed by one of the Houseless. But I find the fate of the faded Elves intriguing.

In one of Tolkien's works, he implies that Círdan was not only the final Elf to go to the Undying Lands but he went on the actual final ship way later than anyone else (or perhaps, the final one he made). I wonder why he had not faded by then, if that was the case. Do you know whether an actual time-frame was given by Tolkien for how long the Elves had to make up their mind? I wonder what the kind of urgency of going in the Third Age was! Perhaps the War of the Ring?

 

[Elthir]

Cirdan sailing (my opinion)

As for Cirdan, in my opinion he sailed with Gandalf. The statement you might be referring to: "some say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into the West" (Appendix A) was seemingly written by a Hobbit, possibly even Merry, and possibly even before Frodo sailed, if I recall correctly.

This passage in Appendix A is in quotation marks, and begins: "Eriador was of old the name . . ." and includes "... as they had done long years before we came to the Shire." To me this could hook up with: "In Brandy Hall there were many works dealing with Eriador and the history of Rohan. Some of these were begun or composed by Meriadoc himself, though in the Shire …" Note on the Shire Records

That opinion noted, and admittedly with these "possiblys" in tow, I think Tolkien is being clever here, so that more than one interpretation is possible. And I'm not immune to the draw of the idea of Cirdan remaining in Middle-earth (after Elrond sails) until some "Last Ship" sails.

I'll put it this way: despite the admittedly attractive notion of Cirdan remaining, if I had to choose, it makes more sense to me that he would sail with Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and so on.

Cirdan's look (my quibble)

I have a little quibble with JRRT's description of Cirdan. I think Tolkien "should have" (!!!) suggested, in his own masterful way, a measure of fadedness with respect to Cirdan, rather than have him looking old, as his description admittedly suggests.

Tolkien, I would say, desired to set Cirdan apart from even the great age of Galadriel for example, and "aged looking" Elves are not unheard of if we consider the entire posthumously published corpus, but for me, and without blabbing on about it here, an old looking "phase" of Elven life seems a needless extra.

The timing

The author of Laws and Customs appears to be a Man, possibly Elfwine, who writes (concerning fading): "that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth." So, if Elfwine, Elven fading has already been achieved by some point in the Anglo-Saxon . . . ah "period"?

Cough

At the moment I can't recall if, in the early 1950s anyway, Tolkien pins Elfwine to a particular English king, century, or event in history, to help narrow my so-vaguely-and-poorly-termed "period" down a bit. In any case, it seems that "that end (fading)" has, arguably at least, not been achieved in all regions at . . . ahh, this point in time.



It appears the process of fading takes a long time: "We are here dealing with Elvish thought at an early period, when the Eldar were still fully "physical" in bodily form. Much later, when the process (already glimpsed by Finrod) called "waning" or "fading" had become more effective, their views of the End of Arda, so far as it affected themselves, must have been modified. But there are few records of any contacts of Elvish and Human thought in such later days. They eventually…"

Or from the text Aman:

"Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to "fade" (…) "But in Aman (…) the hroar aged only apace with the fear, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension."

My answer (short version)

Still physical Elves who remained in Middle-earth faded at some point

Perhaps I should have started, and ended, with this last section!​

 

[Ron Simpson]

Since this discussion touches on the corporeal / non-corporeal, I thought I’d ask the following ‘ghost’ question here:

When the company (elves, wizard & hobbits) overtakes Saruman on the return trip from Minas Tirith, ’Mr Personality’ mockingly makes the ‘ship full of ghosts’ quip. What did he mean by that?

1. Did the boat-ride to Aman require a shedding of physical form in some way?
2. If shedding was required, how was it possible for Frodo? (this is conceivable for elves & wizards as they both had the ability to exist 'on the other side', but hobbits?)
3. Or was Saruman simply misinformed and just trying to get a ‘rise’ out of the Wise?

’Go!' he said. 'I did not spend long study on these matters for naught. You have doomed yourselves, and you know it. And it will afford me some comfort as I wander to think that you pulled down your own house when you destroyed mine. And now, what ship will bear you back across so wide a sea?' he mocked. 'It will be a grey ship, and full of ghosts.' He laughed, but his voice was cracked and hideous.
RoTK, Ch6, Many Partings

'And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds…..'

'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the firstborn’
FoTR, Many Meetings

Any thoughts?

 

[holly13]

Cirdan sailing (my opinion)

As for Cirdan, in my opinion he sailed with Gandalf. The statement you might be referring to: "some say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into the West" (Appendix A) was seemingly written by a Hobbit, possibly even Merry, and possibly even before Frodo sailed, if I recall correctly.

This passage in Appendix A is in quotation marks, and begins: "Eriador was of old the name . . ." and includes "... as they had done long years before we came to the Shire." To me this could hook up with: "In Brandy Hall there were many works dealing with Eriador and the history of Rohan. Some of these were begun or composed by Meriadoc himself, though in the Shire …" Note on the Shire Records

That opinion noted, and admittedly with these "possiblys" in tow, I think Tolkien is being clever here, so that more than one interpretation is possible. And I'm not immune to the draw of the idea of Cirdan remaining in Middle-earth (after Elrond sails) until some "Last Ship" sails.

I'll put it this way: despite the admittedly attractive notion of Cirdan remaining, if I had to choose, it makes more sense to me that he would sail with Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and so on.

Cirdan's look (my quibble)

I have a little quibble with JRRT's description of Cirdan. I think Tolkien "should have" (!!!) suggested, in his own masterful way, a measure of fadedness with respect to Cirdan, rather than have him looking old, as his description admittedly suggests.

Tolkien, I would say, desired to set Cirdan apart from even the great age of Galadriel for example, and "aged looking" Elves are not unheard of if we consider the entire posthumously published corpus, but for me, and without blabbing on about it here, an old looking "phase" of Elven life seems a needless extra.

The timing

The author of Laws and Customs appears to be a Man, possibly Elfwine, who writes (concerning fading): "that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth." So, if Elfwine, Elven fading has already been achieved by some point in the Anglo-Saxon . . . ah "period"?

Cough

At the moment I can't recall if, in the early 1950s anyway, Tolkien pins Elfwine to a particular English king, century, or event in history, to help narrow my so-vaguely-and-poorly-termed "period" down a bit. In any case, it seems that "that end (fading)" has, arguably at least, not been achieved in all regions at . . . ahh, this point in time.



It appears the process of fading takes a long time: "We are here dealing with Elvish thought at an early period, when the Eldar were still fully "physical" in bodily form. Much later, when the process (already glimpsed by Finrod) called "waning" or "fading" had become more effective, their views of the End of Arda, so far as it affected themselves, must have been modified. But there are few records of any contacts of Elvish and Human thought in such later days. They eventually…"

Or from the text Aman:

"Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to "fade" (…) "But in Aman (…) the hroar aged only apace with the fear, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension."

My answer (short version)

Still physical Elves who remained in Middle-earth faded at some point

Perhaps I should have started, and ended, with this last section!​

I too have had a problem with the concept of aged looking Elves. I think a mention of Círdan beginning to fade was the only thing needed, and that would set him apart in age. But I find the Elves very fascinating (my favourite of the races told by Tolkien) and I find the concept of fading very intriguing. But then again, time does not work for them in the same way it does for mortals. I guess another thousand years or so would probably do it, and the answer that they simply faded at some point would have to suffice!

Personally, I think I favour the poetic notion of Círdan being the final Elf on the final boat going to Valinor, but I do think that it makes better sense for him to go with friends like Elrond, Gandalf and co. At times, I don't mind that Tolkien left many interpretations of what might have happened (makes them history books in a way) and it's kinda smart for what he was going for, but at the same time, I love a series of events set in stone! I need to know! Thank you for your thoughtful post.

Since this discussion touches on the corporeal / non-corporeal, I thought I’d ask the following ‘ghost’ question here:

When the company (elves, wizard & hobbits) overtakes Saruman on the return trip from Minas Tirith, ’Mr Personality’ mockingly makes the ‘ship full of ghosts’ quip. What did he mean by that?

1. Did the boat-ride to Aman require a shedding of physical form in some way?
2. If shedding was required, how was it possible for Frodo? (this is conceivable for elves & wizards as they both had the ability to exist 'on the other side', but hobbits?)
3. Or was Saruman simply misinformed and just trying to get a ‘rise’ out of the Wise?


Any thoughts?

For Saruman (and Sauron etc.), the Undying Lands was not the true world. It was a world of dull, never-ending peace. Nothing ever changed. They had nothing to achieve. In many ways, it was a spiritual world - simply a kind of heaven - and the Elves or anyone who went to the Undying Lands might well be dead for every intent and purpose. Any ship bearing them would simply be a ship of ghosts, never to be heard from again. They might well be dead.

I think that's what the second quote meant too. They live in both worlds - the people who live in the Undying Lands technically never actually died, but the life they have acts that way.

No mention was ever made of whether the Undying Lands actually protects the Elves from fading. I think it probably would have because then why then the need to go over to the Undying Lands now rather than later, if they may go in a faded form anyway? But I might be wrong. Perhaps a kind of fading would eventually happen anyway? But fading would not bring the same problems of not being in the Undying Lands? Frodo, Sam, Bilbo and Gimli would never feel the effect because mortals don't live long enough to go through that? But it certainly never happened on the way over (you interpreted Saruman's quote in the wrong way I think, which changes the idea that they fade on the way over).

 

[Elthir]

It seems to me that the Eldar do not fade in the body, in Aman, West Over Sea.

"Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to "fade" (…) "But in Aman (…) the hroar aged only apace with the fear, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension." JRRT, text Aman, Morgoth's Ring,

For anyone wondering maybe, the Elvish word hroar roughly translates as "bodies", and fear as "spirits".

Quote edited for brevity and coloured by me of course

 

[holly13]

It seems to me that the Eldar do not fade in the body, in Aman, West Over Sea.

"Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to "fade" (…) "But in Aman (…) the hroar aged only apace with the fear, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension." JRRT, text Aman, Morgoth's Ring,

For anyone wondering maybe, the Elvish word hroar roughly translates as "bodies", and fear as "spirits".

Quote edited for brevity and coloured by me of course

Thanks for the quote! I think case closed in a way, I would say it certainly appears they do not fade in Aman.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

When you say "faded", by any chance is that the same sort of "faded" that happens to those mortals who use the Rings of Power for far too much and long? Do they exist, but only in the spirit plane, thus technically invisible or in a sort of wraith-form in the actual mortal world of Middle Earth?

 

[del-Kinofnerdanel]

When you say "faded", by any chance is that the same sort of "faded" that happens to those mortals who use the Rings of Power for far too much and long? Do they exist, but only in the spirit plane, thus technically invisible or in a sort of wraith-form in the actual mortal world of Middle Earth?

I would say yes, save that they don't belong to the evil realm of shadows. But Tolkien wrote they could go so astray in thought, so mad, that they would become evil, sometimes even trying to possess someone else in order to acquire a physical form.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

I would say yes, save that they don't belong to the evil realm of shadows. But Tolkien wrote they could go so astray in thought, so mad, that they would become evil, sometimes even trying to possess someone else in order to acquire a physical form.

Unless they can get to Valinor somehow, I don't see what else they can do.

 

[Elthir]

Keep in mind though -- not that anybody isn't, but to put a stamp on Tolkien's distinction here -- faded elves, the Lingerers, are not houseless, "though they may seem to be" (MR). They do not desire bodies.

It's some of the Houseless Elves who might unlawfully take, or use, the body of another.

 

[del-Kinofnerdanel]

So can any one of them (either Houseless, either faded) "sail" to Valinor or call for Mandos to be taken into his Halls? Can his invitation be later accepted, if once refused?