🧝Galadriel in the Amazon Series

[Tar-Elenion]

Ah okay. Thanks SES. I think I even recall the argument that Imrahil's vambrace "could" be bright burnished leather -- but I wouldn't know if that's even possible, as I'm no expert in armor, breath, leather, burnishing, mist appearing on stuff, . . .

I'm going to (generally) ignore helms, but here are the individual pieces of plate armour mentioned in the corpus:
"Now this great work was finished to their mind, and folk were the busier about the quarrying of metals and the forging of all manner of swords and axes, spears and bills, and the fashioning of coats of mail, byrnies and hauberks, greaves and vambraces, helms and shields."
BoLT 2, Fall of Gondolin

Gimli mentions an iron collar:
"‘Alas! My axe is notched: the forty-second had an iron collar on his neck."
LotR, Road to Isengard

Imrahil:
"And he held the bright-burnished vambrace that was upon his arm before her cold lips, and behold! a little mist was laid on it hardly to be seen."
LotR, Battle of the Pelennor Fields

However he was clad in mail not plate (for his primary defence):
"Tirelessly he strode from Citadel to Gate, from north to south about the wall; and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true."
LotR, Siege of Gondor

There are some mentions of scale armour:
"He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword."
LotR, Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

"Ulmo, loving all rivers and this one more than most, went thence on foot, robed to the middle in mail like the scales of blue and silver fishes..."
BoLT 2, Fall of Gondolin

"A tall crown he[Ulmo] wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk; and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of a mighty fish..."
UT, Of Tuor...

"Now Thingol had in Menegroth deep armouries filled with great wealth of weapons: metal wrought like fishes’ mail and shining like water in the moon; swords and axes, shields and helms..."
UT, Narn...

But otherwise it is always mail, no mentions (or drawings) of breastplates, backplates, spaulders, faulds etc.

To blather on (now not in response to SES):

Back to the Nissi (Elven women): in LACE it's noted that the care of the body and healing are most practiced by Elven-women -- and it was deemed that abstaining from hunting and war helped
the Elven women in this regard . . . and: "it was the Elven-men who bore arms at need"

And of course the text adds that in: "dire straights or desperate defence, the Nissi fought valiantly."

And there is Tolkien noting what the Eldar and other Edain thought of the warrior-woman tradition of the folk of Haleth:
"They did not willingly adopt new things or customs, and retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar and the other Atani, with whom they had few dealings except in war. [...] One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women."
UT, The Druedain

Or, for example [and whether or not the following represents Tolkien's "last" known version of the Kinslaying is beside this following point]: in LQS1 it is said that Fingon and Turgon had no part
in the Kinslaying. Fingon and Turgon are able to fight of course. And when the Kinslaying began,
(QS tradition) the vanguard of the Noldor were succored by the foremost of the people of Fingolfin.

But Fingon and Turgon had no part. Why?

Because Tolkien

And Quenta Silmarillion is meant to be a relatively brief account of a long history, compared to more
in-depth prose or poetic versions of [in this case, any battles of] the Great Tales.

I'm aware that Argon (Shibboleth of Feanor) "perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks" -- and that the Orks caught the host at unawares, and that while the ranks of the Eldar were giving way, Argon sprang forward, hewed a path, daunting Orks with his stature and the light of his eyes. And he felled "the" Ork-captain. And though he himself was slain, the Orks were dismayed, and the Noldor pursued them with slaughter.

And Galadriel is not mentioned. And she is where . . . when what happened?

Well, nothing I've said here proves Galadriel did not fight at Lammoth, or Battle of Beleriand X or Y,
nor am I even trying to argue that she didn't. And I don't doubt her potential awesomeness on any battlefield . . . just as I do not doubt Fingon's potential awesomeness at Swanhaven! I'm just thinking of that word "necessarily".

Regarding Galadriel in the Battles in Beleriand:
"In the years after they [Galadriel and Celeborn] did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid..."
UT, History of Galadriel and Celeborn

======
I may be mis-remembering, but I don't think the Noldor had armour (other than helms) until they came back to Middle-earth.

 

[Elthir]

Thanks Tar-E!

I almost noted (in my former post about wondering about the armor references) something like -- anything from The Book of Lost Tales or very early stuff -- to be looked at with a hmmm -- but it's good to note these for fullness sake, in any case.

And the Druedain quote is excellent.

Regarding Galadriel in the Battles in Beleriand: "In the years after they [Galadriel and Celeborn] did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid..." UT, History of Galadriel and Celeborn

This was noted in the post SES referred to as well, but, how to put it . . . maybe this way:

for me (but not for anyone else necessarily) to quote this is not so easy, as I'm often railing against this very late adumbrated text, which contradicts RGEO (a Tolkien published account, as I know you know).

Generally speaking, the history here is very different from Galadriel as a leader of the Exiles across
the Ginding Ice, and Celeborn being a Sinda, rather than a Teler of Aman (again, as I know you know).

I mean, I suppose one could lift certain elements from this text, and create a blend, so to speak,
but at least generally speaking, my history of Galadriel and Celeborn is based on author-published accounts, plus Silmarillion related texts that arguably fit.

 

[Elthir]

By the way, did I just see (last night) a "promo-something" in which Morfydd Clark steps onto someone else's sword to be . . . flung somewhere?

Tolkien citation please

 

[Tar-Elenion]

This was noted in the post SES referred to as well, but, how to put it . . . maybe this way:

for me (but not for anyone else necessarily) to quote this is not so easy, as I'm often railing against this very late adumbrated text, which contradicts RGEO (a Tolkien published account, as I know you know).

Generally speaking, the history here is very different from Galadriel as a leader of the Exiles across
the Ginding Ice, and Celeborn being a Sinda, rather than a Teler of Aman (again, as I know you know).

I mean, I suppose one could lift certain elements from this text, and create a blend, so to speak,
but at least generally speaking, my history of Galadriel and Celeborn is based on author-published accounts, plus Silmarillion related texts that arguably fit.

This particular portion of that narrative (regardless of Celeborn/Teleprorno etc.) fits with what is 'known' of Galadriel in Beleriand from the other narratives when she is introduced into the texts where she dwells in Doriath for most of her time in Beleriand, hence not in a position where she would be physically in combat, and as the quote continues, she (and Celeborn) leaves Beleriand (which fits neatly with her statement in LotR as well as almost all the other variants (one of which has her leaving very early as I recall).

 

[Elthir]

This particular portion of that narrative (regardless of Celeborn/Teleprorno etc.) fits with what is 'known' of Galadriel in Beleriand from the other narratives when she is introduced into the texts where she dwells in Doriath for most of her time in Beleriand, hence not in a position where she would be physically in combat,

Right. What I was saying is that, for myself, I'd rather reference that history than simply post a
quote from a text that I often reject. As I noted, I could select from it and blend stuff, but I normally avoid it and look at Galadriel's first age history (for the most part) as taken up by Christopher Tolkien in the constructed Silmarillion (which includes early 1950s stuff, for example).

In other words, it feels selective of me to quote that, rather than point to other narratives, given how often I throw this late text to Grip, Fang and Wolf.

and as the quote continues, she (and Celeborn) leaves Beleriand (which fits neatly with her statement in LotR as well as almost all the other variants (one of which has her leaving very early as I recall).

Still, I give weight to author published RGEO regarding Celeborn and Galadriel passing over the EredLuin after the overthrow of Morgoth . . . and though obviously Galadriel's statement in The Lord of the Rings is author published as well, my attempt -- however good or not so good it is (although I've had a few somewhat "positive" reactions from readers) -- at reconciliation here, includes, just for example, Galadriel's less specific use of passing over "mountains" in The Fellowship of the Ring.

🐾

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Still, I give weight to author published RGEO regarding Celeborn and Galadriel passing over the EredLuin after the overthrow of Morgoth . . . and though obviously Galadriel's statement in The Lord of the Rings is author published as well, my attempt -- however good or not so good it is (although I've had a few somewhat "positive" reactions from readers) -- at reconciliation here, includes, just for example, Galadriel's less specific use of passing over "mountains" in The Fellowship of the Ring.

I see that 'passing over the Ered Luin' as Galadriel would have come back in response to the summons of Eonwe for the Elves to depart from Middle-earth/receive pardon (or not) etc. after the defeat of Morgoth, and she then passes back over the Ered Luin afterwards.

 

[Elthir]

Okay. Can you briefly sum up the larger scenario including Celeborn?

I'm interested, as admittedly, my attempt does a bit of fancy dancing.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Galadriel and Celeborn dwell in Doriath.
At some point before the fall of Nargothrond they abandon Beleriand and cross into Eriador.
After the overthrow of Morgoth, Eonwe summons the Elves to issue pardons and/or depart Middle-earth.
Galadriel and Celeborn answer to that summons.
Galadriel not pardoned/refuses pardon/whatever.
Celeborn holds fief in Harlindon with Galadriel.
At some point they move back into Eriador for a time.
Then onto Eregion.

 

[Elthir]

Thanks Tar-E! I'll muse upon this.

By giving RGEO and LOTR primacy, I got caught up on Galadriel's seeming meaning in LOTR, that before the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin "I" passed over the mountains. So yes, as you note, there is other text to allow for "they" . . . but by heavily weighting a given interpretation of something said in LOTR, I chose (at least in the past) to move mountains!

I also chose to suggest that Galadriel's time frame reference is just a way to basically say "a very long time ago" (possible like "ere the fall of Rome" or something). In my scenario this "needed" to be so because if Galadriel passed over some mountains to meet Celeborn in Doriath, it was arguably very much before the "fall" of these realms.

[cough]

But as I say, I'll muse upon your scenario

By the way Tar-E, I revised an earlier post of mine before I realized you had quoted it. It wasn't due to anything about our conversation, as we were not really disputing one another (as far as I read things),
I just didn't like some of my post -- the edits were about poor wording, or deleting something that I don't want to potentially get drawn into (at least for the general "present" time).

Anyway, thanks again!

 

[Halasían]

I'll wait and see how it is presented in the finished product before making any decisions pro or con.

Yeah, I think I like Morffyd Clark's portrayal of Galadriel in The Rings of Power!

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

View attachment 15124

Yeah, I think I like Morffyd Clark's portrayal of Galadriel in The Rings of Power!

How dare they make her ride a horse, heap of trash, heap of trash!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Yeah,I thought she floated everywhere. 🤔

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Yeah,I thought she floated everywhere. 🤔

According to one former (thank Eru) member, she probably did, and defecated Elanor flowers.

 

[Radaghast]

View attachment 15124

Yeah, I think I like Morffyd Clark's portrayal of Galadriel in The Rings of Power!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Um, I don't think her nose really looks like that. 🙄

 

[Radaghast]

Screenshot from IMDB.com trailer page 😁

 

[Lithóniel]

This is me in the back of every picture ever.

 

[Elthir]

Just stumbled over a Hobbit description (Riddles in the Dark) of goblins in "full armour" . . . whatever that means, and whatever that means for goblins, anyway.

Then "whistles blew, armour clashed, swords rattled, goblins cursed . . ." and so on. Whatever that means too!

 

[Halasían]

My wife is so eloquent!

Elora said: “Galadriel’s character is a complex one. To “pass the test” she underwent in denying the One Ring in the Third Age, a great deal of wisdom and insight was required. And that is hard won, for Elves, Men, Dwarves and Haflings.

As someone else said, Galadriel’s tale is of someone who defied the gods, as it were, and yet lived to tell the tale. Her ambition, drive, and pride are key features she shares with her cousin, Fëanor. Yet, she does not walk his path.

She wasn’t always the zen like creature portrayed in PJ’s films. She is very powerful. Learning how to use that power takes time.

All of that said, I’d not make the writing choices for Galadriel seen thus far. I think there are other ways, more subtle and less incongruous. But that would probably be too abstract a tale to tell well in this format.“

 

[Ent]

@Tar-Elenion and @Elthir - thank you. I REALLY appreciate your interchange on Galadriel/Celeborn.
I'm going to copy all that out for study in its appropriate place on my 'to research' list..!