S01 Season 1 Episode 3: Adar

[Ent]

that audience is going disappear overnight

Maybe. Some of the 'die-hard- fans perhaps. But not the fanfic fans, and the know-nothing fans.
All it needs to be for them is an "adequate fantasy." They'll keep coming back.

The key is to pull in enough revenue, as early as possible, to cover the production costs. And only the "die-hard" fans will ever see it as a failure. Therein lies the beauty.

 

[Ealdwyn]

The key is to pull in enough revenue, as early as possible, to cover the production costs.

I agree. But a lot of the people watching will already have Prime, and that isn't bringing in any extra money. And if you're already paying for Prime you're more likely to give something mediocre a chance, because it's not an additional expense.

What Amazon really needs is to attract and retain new subscribers, but if you've signed up solely to watch RoP and it's not delivering then you're going to cancel your subscription pretty quickly.

 

[Ent]

as an (apparently slightly masochistically inclined) Tolkien fan, I'm having fun enduring this agony,

They are also counting on this... as is said in some of my other blatherings on this issue.
Of course, do understand... they're all just my opinion given what I'm seeing, have read and heard, and comparing early statements to actual results.

 

[Annatar]

I don't know that I would say - "deliberately" - as a theory - though I suppose in the end it boils down to the same thing.
I do believe once they recognized the great increase in revenue controversy would bring, they altered their original intentions in favor of less concern for integrity and more for what they considered 'story'.

They did not need to think beyond that... it just naturally brings its own results - in virtually every arena of the work.

Well, I agree with you when it comes to getting quick results. If the goal is to get as many people as possible to subscribe to Prime at the start of the series, that should be successful - despite the price increase in Europe.
But if you are right about your Amazon psychology, this strategy would not be sustainable. Normal users will switch off at season 2 at the latest if such immense weaknesses continue to exist. The competitors (with House of the Dragon etc.) don't sleep either, so probably not so many people will watch a fantasy series that has serious flaws out of pure boredom or because it was hotly discussed in the media at the beginning of the series. At some point, the issue is also settled.

It's true that for large corporations, it's often only the quick results that count, but in this case, 5 seasons have already been contractually agreed, and a disaster in customer/viewer satisfaction could - especially with the enormous budget - damage Amazon's reputation in the long term.
On the other hand, you must be right somewhere, because I don't believe that Amazon's management is made up exclusively of idiots - and with Wheel of Time, there was already a prototype for this tactic a year earlier.
I don't really see a common thread yet...

 

[Ealdwyn]

They've actually published the reviews now and it has 3 stars. As a casual viewer, I wouldn't consider a 3 star show to be worth my time.

 

[Ent]

Indeed. There is always a risk in any venture. Both for the event itself, and for the impact it has on people's perception of the corporation (thus the future as you identify,.)

if such immense weaknesses continue to exist.

One of my issues remains with your statement above. Who sees them as 'weaknesses', much less 'immense weaknesses' ? Only those who know.
And my personal impression is that they have abandoned those who 'know' in view (and favor) of the larger audience.
And the one thing that chaps my bark the most about the series, is exactly that..!

I too endure it at this point... but again, only for what it is, not for all that it is not. Fortunately, I have an 'off' switch when it comes to 'comparisons' - but it took me countless years to develop.

 

[d4rk3lf]

"To enjoy it for what it is, rather than what it is not."

I'd very much like to do that, but I can't.
Everywhere I look, I see very poor writing, plot holes, bad dialogues.. etc.
I wish this is a series that doesn't respect Tolkien lore very much, but can stand up their own stories, feel and atmosphere.
But it doesn't.

The best thing I can do, is not to worry too much, just watch, and laugh for every stupid thing they do.
And I expect II will laugh for long into the future.

 

[Olorgando]

... Fortunately, I have an 'off' switch when it comes to 'comparisons' - but it took me countless years to develop.

Rumor has it that there's an "off" switch on TV remote controls, too ... 😈

 

[Ealdwyn]

I'm just not excited by it. I'm not waiting in anticipation for each new episode to land so I can find out what happens next.
There is some good stuff, but it's far outweighed by a lot of very mediocre, very boring stuff. I'm personally rating it 2/5.

I will probably give it one more episode. But if it doesn't improve then I have lots of other things I'd much rather watch.

 

[Annatar]

They've actually published the reviews now and it has 3 stars. As a casual viewer, I wouldn't consider a 3 star show to be worth my time.

By the way, they blocked the reviews for the first time for a whole week and now apparently validate each one manually. Even my very detailed review (without "political" connotations) has not been published yet. It can be assumed that there is a lot of manipulation going on here, just like at IMDB, which by the way belongs to the Amazon group.
The mainstream media talk about "review bombing" and racist Tolkien fans. Well, there is also "review bombing" going on as far as 5-star (or 10/10) ratings are concerned, and they are not censored.
Also, Tolkien fans are just being blanket labeled as racists and toxic in mainstream media just because many of us have a problem with the lore deviations or because the immersion is ruined for us. We shouldn't have to put up with that. Essentially, this tactic only distracts from the fact that the story-writing and the dialogues are bad to mediocre and contain many embarrassing things that should worry even every Tolkien-illiterate who has some sense and has seen some high-quality series in his life for comparison...

 

[Ent]

I'd very much like to do that, but I can't.

And yet you are. You are laughing at the 'stupidities' of it.
And will continue to watch, even if for no more than that. (And to be able to be aware of it, and discuss it with others.)

So you, we, and all others are precisely the audience Amazon has counted on, and continues to count on.
And it is far from the first and only show that has done this.

There is one huge difference between this genre however, and those like the Marvel or Star Trek/Star Wars universes... and therein may ultimately lie the failure of RoP. We shall see.

 

[Ealdwyn]

Also, Tolkien fans are just being blanket labeled as racists and toxic in mainstream media just because many of us have a problem with the lore deviations or because the immersion is ruined for us. We shouldn't have to put up with that. Essentially, this tactic only distracts from the fact that the story-writing and the dialogues are bad to mediocre and contain many embarrassing things that should worry even every Tolkien-illiterate who has some sense and has seen some high-quality series in his life for comparison...

100% agree.
But as I've said before, I'm not so naive to believe that there are no racist reviews out there. But I agree that they are trying to discredit everyone who doesn't like the show on that basis.

Personally, I like the diverse cast. As I posted here, it's entirely consistent with canon for ME to have a diverse population

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/th...azad-by-sergio-artigas-lotr.28444/post-537807

 

[d4rk3lf]

The mainstream media talk about "review bombing" and racist Tolkien fans. Well, there is also "review bombing" going on as far as 5-star (or 10/10) ratings are concerned, and they are not censored.

Well, I expected that from the very start.
It's much easier for them calling us racist (even we are not), then admitting that they don't have a good plot, characters, etc.

So you, we, and all others are precisely the audience Amazon has counted on, and continues to count on.
And it is far from the first and only show that has done this.

If you think, I am paying Amazon Prime, think twice.
But ultimately, you might be right, and I see your point, and it might be totally valid.

From the other... dunno man... very average, barely watchable series on IMDB have an rating something like 7.5.
At least from my experience, anything less then 8 is not worth watching.
This have 6.8, and it was lower in ratings few days a go.

I am not sure how all will end... but with that terrible rating from the site they own, if the series have big success, it will be something that never happened before.

 

[Ealdwyn]

very average, barely watchable series on IMDB have an rating something like 7.5.

You know that Amaz*n owns IMDB, right?

 

[d4rk3lf]

You know that Amaz*n owns IMDB, right?

but with that terrible rating from the site they own,

 

[Ent]

If you think, I am paying Amazon Prime, think twice

Don't forget that even if we aren't paying, yet every time we watch something of theirs, for whatever reason we watch it, we are 'casting a vote' in their favor. And they keep the stats...!s

The very fact that we chose that over virtually anything and everything else that was available, is a feather in their caps. Just like the 'TV polls' that are so closely monitored and touted as magnificent in their marketing campaigns.

Not paying is one thing, Not watching is entirely another... (though a certain connection between the two does exist and cannot be severed).

 

[Annatar]

One of my issues remains with your statement above. Who sees them as 'weaknesses', much less 'immense weaknesses' ? Only those who know.

That's just the point where I wasn't so sure before, when there were only the trailers, but since the first three episodes, very much so:

The series is simply bad - no matter if you have a clue about Tolkien's works or not - it is illogical and unsympathetic. And boring. To pick up a few examples from this episode:

- Galadriel is an eternal know-it-all who is always annoyed or angry. She is at the same time the "good" main character, but although she is thousands of years old and noble (even the uninformed can guess that) she has no empathy. At the court before Miriel, she has to be taught manners by Halbrand. She laughs the first time she sits on a horse, like a little girl, and it looks awkward and strange, also because of the inappropriate slow motion.
- The pseudo-hobbits, who should also be sympathetic, pretend to care about each other, but are - as we now know since this episode - cold-hearted towards their own people and inconsistent like orcs. The further dealings with the stranger (Gandalf?) are completely illogical.
- The elves in the south have a very high watchtower and don't notice that the orcs are obviously digging their way very close to the surface; and they are all captured. And they have to work in daylight, oddly enough, instead of at night, or digging tunnels underground - when the orcs are so sensitive to light.

There are many more examples, but these may be very obvious ones that don't make sense even to the random viewer. Honestly, if you've seen a few good series, you'll stop watching this one if you're not a crazy Tolkien fan like us!

 

[Ealdwyn]

Don't forget that even if we aren't paying, yet every time we watch something of theirs, for whatever reason we watch it, we are 'casting a vote' in their favor. And they keep the stats...!s

The very fact that we chose that over virtually anything and everything else that was available, is a feather in their caps. Just like the 'TV polls' that are so closely monitored and touted as magnificent in their marketing campaigns.

Not paying is one thing, Not watching is entirely another... (though a certain connection between the two does exist and cannot be severed).

Indeed.
But the bottom line is money. We can cast as many 'votes' as we like, but they only win if they gain subscribers.

 

[Ent]

OK, so for me the discussion on this thread has circled back to earlier points which have already been covered.
I vote we return the thread back to its purpose, which is chat about this particular episode.
The discussions about RoP in general can be held elsewhere. There are threads already in place to deal with it I think.

 

[Annatar]

Personally, I like the diverse cast. As I posted here, it's entirely consistent with canon for ME to have a diverse population

Let's put it this way: Amazon could have made it reasonably consistent with canon for some casts like Disa or Arondir, quite simply with a few explanations, if they had bothered. But they didn't. They could have had Disa come as a noblewoman from one of the (south)eastern dwarven nations, for example. They could have characterized Arondir as one of the Avari, who had moved south instead of west very early in the history of the Elves, and so on. But they didn't. You could have made the real southerners and Haradrim and the people of Rhun more of a theme. But they didn't. The series' "southerners" (from Pre-Mordor) even look like white Europeans for the most part now. (And apparently have Irish or Scottish accents, too?) What's the point? They should look more like someone from southeastern Europe or the Middle East and not like Scots or so.
Obviously they didn't want to show realistic diversity in a plausible way, although there would have been a lot of possibilities. I suspect because, first, they didn't know anything about history and lore, and second, they just had to fill their given quotas more or less at random, and third, because they have absolutely no idea what the real world is really like (or looked like in historical times, which is much more important) - they probably only know California. And I think a lot of the average viewers (with a school degree) will kind of realize that, too, even if they have no idea about the Silmarillion.
No matter what people or culture, despite the very different origins and climatic conditions in which they live, all peoples look the same and yet not the same. They are all randomly mixed according to Amazon's quota.
Criticism of this has nothing to do with racism: For anyone who knows a bit about history and places some value on authenticity, the immersion is destroyed.

This is noticeable even to those who have no idea about Tolkien: Why is there racism in the series between Numenorians and foreigners, although on average there seems to be no difference. There is also apparently no difference between elves and humans beyond their pointed ears. Makes no sense. I hope that in future episodes at least immortality will still be an issue, as this is ultimately the most important factor in all of Numenor's conflicts.

By the way, I also subscribe to several black YouTubers, some of whom are also very big Tolkien fans, and they sometimes get the most upset about the diverse cast. What would these mainstream media that are insulting our fandom have to say about that?
In the end, it's just a welcome and cheap means for them to discredit any form of criticism. The fact that a very expensive series is simply badly made probably never occurs to them, and who knows how much money was transferred for benevolent reviews...

So whoever criticizes the series is a racist. It's as simple as that. For some at least - but they have too much to say in the mainstream.