Is Third Age Middle-earth larger than Beleriand?

[Turin_Turambar]

hello friends, I had a chat with a Turkish middle-earth historian on twitch. Don't be fooled that he is Turkish. He has read all the Middle-earth books many times and has even read the Silmarillion at least 10 times. And he is currently one of the most knowledgeable people in the world about both Middle-earth and Tolkien. His name is Zafer Güleç. I am Turkish too. But I live in United States. Do not be prejudiced against me because I am Turkish. Because I don't have prejudice against people because of their race or religion. Because I love people first and foremost because they are human. Anyway, during the chat, I asked him some questions. He replied to me as follows;

1-The theme of the decline of middle earth is only about the power and might of the races. So as time passes, the races lose their power. Other than that, everything is normal.
2-He said that there is no numerical source that the armies in the wars of beleriand were more numerous than the armies of the wars of the second and third ages, but that the wars of beleriand were much more fierce.
3-He said that Tolkien's favorite middle-earth character is Sam.
4-He said that gollum is good in reality, but has taken on a bad character because of the one ring.
5-He said that in the wars of beleriand the trolls first appeared in the nirnaeth arnoediad and they were not in the previous wars, Also he said in the wars of beleriand before the war of wrath there were no winged, that is flying dragons.
6-He said that in the War of the Ring in the wars in north, that is in the wars of the elves, the drakes who were not as big as in ancient times, fought against the elves and trolls and spiders were in these wars too.
7-He said that the Third Age Middle-earth was much larger than the region of Beleriand, and that there was much more place in the Third Age Middle-earth than the region of Beleriand, that is, more settlements and regions than Beleriand.
8-He said that Sauron's combined armies, fought in all the battles of the War of the Ring, could outnumber Morgoth's armies combined in all wars of Beleriand, the except of the War of Wrath.
9-He said that the story that Tolkien focused on and wrote the most was the life stories of celeborn and galadriel, both together and individually. In other words, Tolkien wrote the lives of celeborn and galadriel longer than other subjects.
10-He said that there were more wars in the war of the ring than the wars of beleriand, and that although the wars of beleriand were fought in sequence, the wars of the war of the ring were fought at the same time.
11-He said that Battle of the Pelennor Fields, War of the Last Alliance, and Battle of the Morannon were greater than any other first age war, except the War of Wrath, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and Dagor Bragollach.

What do you think about this issues that the middle-earth historian who talked to me told me about? Do you agree with him? Or are there any issues that you think differently?

 

[Vorondil]

He said that in the War of the Ring in the wars in north, that is in the wars of the elves, the drakes who were not as big as in ancient times, fought against the elves and trolls and spiders were in these wars too.

I'm interested to know where he got this from

 

[Deimos]

1-The theme of the decline of middle earth is only about the power and might of the races. So as time passes, the races lose their power. Other than that, everything is normal.

What do you think about this issues that the middle-earth historian who talked to me told me about? Do you agree with him? Or are there any issues that you think differently?

Well, let's look at the first part .... The theme of the decline of middle earth is only about the power and might of the races. So as time passes, the races lose their power. Other than that, everything is normal. (my emphasis added)

ME is firstly made up of races: men, elves, dwarves ( all of whatever lineage), orcs.
All of the above are capable to some extent (some greater, some lesser) of exercising free will and (more or less ) coherent thought.
There are a few races of animals (the Eagles) and the skin changers (men who can change their appearance but not their nature).

And then there are tons and tons of plants and bodies of water and rocks etc, which really don't do a lot of thinking (or really any thinking) nor do they engage in much moving around.
And don't say water moves... it does but its movement is governed by gravity, often against its will...if it had a will...which it doesn't.

What I'm getting at is:
If "the decline of middle earth is only about the power and might of the races", well, not to put too fine of a point on it, but what else is there in Middle Earth to decline other than the races, the decline of which would matter one jot? The decline of plant life, of rocks, of a lake or waterfall? That is, what does it matter in the long run if plants etc maintain their "normalcy" (whatever that is) while civilizations decline and /or fall to ruin?

When Tolkien said he viewed the history of ME as one long defeat (one could put substitute the word "decline" for defeat) , he was speaking precisely of the tragedy and loss resutling from the decline of races (and, by extension, of civilizations) . One does not use the word "history" with reference plants or rocks or bodies of water except in the most rigorous scientific application.
Only peoples, races, civilizations have histories, the way it is typically understood.

The Turk seems rather dismissive of the importance of the decline of races... "Oh yeah the races decline... no big deal. Other than that little blip in the History of ME everything else is normal."

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I'm interested to know where he got this from

Actually, I don't know where he got it from, because he didn't explain it. But I think it might make sense. Because if you remember, Gandalf said that after the death of Smaug, there were no big dragons left in middle earth, only small dragons in the mountains. So even if the great dragons from the first age went extinct, the small sized dragons may have been used by Sauron in the northern wars. Already if you have already played, bfme 2 game was also about the northern wars. And there were more than enough dragons in that game.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Well, let's look at the first part ....The theme of So as time passes, the races lose their power. Other than that, everything is normal.

ME is firstly made up of races: men, elves, dwarves ( all of whatever lineage), orcs.
All of the above are capable to some extent (some greater, some lesser) of exercising free will and (more or less ) coherent thought.
There are a few races of animals (the Eagles) and the skin changers (men who can change their appearance but not their nature).

And then there are tons and tons of plants and bodies of water and rocks etc, which really don't do a lot of thinking (or really any thinking) nor do they engage in much moving around.
And don't say water moves... it does but its movement is governed by gravity, often against its will...if it had a will...which it doesn't.

What I'm getting at is:
If "the decline of middle earth is only about the power and might of the races", well, not to put too fine of a point on it, but what else is there in Middle Earth to decline other than the races, the decline of which would matter one jot? The decline of plant life, of rocks, of a lake or waterfall?

When Tolkien said he viewed the history of ME as one long defeat (one could put substitute the word "decline" for defeat) , he was speaking precisely of the decline of races (and by extension civilizations) . One does not use the word "history" with reference plants or rocks or bodies of water except in the most rigorous scientific application.
Only peoples, races, civilizations have histories, the way it is typically understood.

The Turk seems rather dismissive of the importance of the decline of races... "Oh yeah the races decline... no big deal. Other than that little blip in the History of ME everything else is normal."

You're right, but what I meant was: Some middle-earth fans say that the decline in middle-earth isn't just about races, it's also reflected in magic, and the population of soldiers in armies. I said to them, "Other than that, everything is normal" as a kind of response.

 

[Deimos]

You're right, but what I meant was: Some middle-earth fans say that the decline in middle-earth isn't just about races, it's also reflected in magic, and the population of soldiers in armies. I said to them, "Other than that, everything is normal" as a kind of response.

Well, I don't follow you on who said what. For clarity's sake maybe you should present the entire convo on that particular item, as in:

You asked/said [this]...
Turkish Scholar said [this]....
You replied (if you did) [this]...
etc....

 

[Radaghast]

Actually, I don't know where he got it from, because he didn't explain it. But I think it might make sense. Because if you remember, Gandalf said that after the death of Smaug, there were no big dragons left in middle earth, only small dragons in the mountains. So even if the great dragons from the first age went extinct, the small sized dragons may have been used by Sauron in the northern wars. Already if you have already played, bfme 2 game was also about the northern wars. And there were more than enough dragons in that game.

There is no mention of dragons being used by Sauron in any wars.

 

[Vorondil]

There is no mention of dragons being used by Sauron in any wars.

That's what I thought, its why I was interested to know where he got that from.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Fascinating. Thanks for this, @Teleporno Celeborn !

 

[Ent]

Of all things said, point #4 is the most immediately 'interesting' to Ent.
He will do a little research on this.
If Smeagol was 'inherently good' or 'initially good' the Ring sure had an immediate impact on him, turning him within the space of time of but a few seconds and sentences, into a murderer.
Being of hobbit kind, this is a bit inconsistent with the rest of the hobbits' resistance to the ring's draw into corruption. (Deagol also was not entirely free from the immediate draw, being willing to at least fight over possession of it.)

Of course, the ring had a great 'desire' to be found...

Yet we 'bring to any situation all that is 'us' to begin with'... so such a prompt corruption, one would think, was inherently working within a field already more than apt toward corruption.

For the moment, it seems a great Speculation to Ent... but without what Ent would call 'common logic with regard to a foundational understanding of the real nature of beings (human or otherwise)."

 

[Radaghast]

I have to question item #4 (well, most of the items, actually) myself and wonder how this self-styled Middle-earth historian came by this conclusion. Tolkien himself seemed to say differently:

I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge. The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean son of thief before it crossed his path.

• The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #181

This strongly suggests to me that Sméagol was already a rotten egg before ever seeing the Ring. It's also suggested by the fact that Sméagol murders his cousin to death rather than just, say, wrests it from his grip.

 

[Ent]

and wonder how this self-styled Middle-earth historian

methinks you answer your own wonderment, good Radaghast.

p.s. - thanks for the chuckle.... "

Sméagol murders his cousin to death

Now Ent must research if there is a 'murder' that is not 'to death.' 😁

 

[Radaghast]

😆 Whoops. I originally meant to say "throttles" then used "murders" instead and forgot to take out "to death" 😳

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I have to question item #4 (well, most of the items, actually) myself and wonder how this self-styled Middle-earth historian came by this conclusion. Tolkien himself seemed to say differently:

• The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #181

This strongly suggests to me that Sméagol was already a rotten egg before ever seeing the Ring. It's also suggested by the fact that Sméagol murders his cousin to death rather than just, say, wrests it from his grip.

In fact, when Tolkien described smeagol in this way, he may have implied that he could be ruthless in bad situations, such as in situations where he had been wronged. I think so because in the 3. lotr movie, smeagol was an extremely good and cheerful hobbit. In fact, smeagol's laughing giggle when his cousin catches a fish shows how good he is.

 

[Radaghast]

Because bad people don't laugh and are never cheerful? Anyway, the movies were made without Tolkien's input and are not an indication of how he thought the encounter between Sméagol and Déagol went.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

There is no mention of dragons being used by Sauron in any wars.

Actually, sauron's use of dragons in the north wars during war of the ring already speculation rather from a source or information. And I think it is most likely that sauron used dragons. because after the death of smaug, there were hundreds, maybe thousands, of small-sized dragons living in the mountains. There's no reason why Sauron shouldn't use those dragons.

 

[Radaghast]

Actually, sauron's use of dragons in the north wars during war of the ring already speculation rather from a source or information. And I think it is most likely that sauron used dragons. because after the death of smaug, there were hundreds, maybe thousands, of small-sized dragons living in the mountains. There's no reason why Sauron shouldn't use those dragons.

Except that Tolkien never says he did. Saying "Tolkien never says he didn't" (reasoning used by the charlatans behind The Rings of Power) is not argument enough. It's too big a gap to fill with wild supposition.

Also, given that dragons can fly, why on (Middle-)earth would Sauron not deploy them against Gondor? What would be the reasoning for not mentioning them at the assaults on Erebor, which is right next door to the Withered Heath? Sauron could basically win the War of the Ring if he had hundreds or thousands of dragons. Where are you even getting that number from? What is it based on?

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Because bad people don't laugh and are never cheerful? Anyway, the movies were made without Tolkien's input and are not an indication of how he thought the encounter between Sméagol and Déagol went.

You may be right. But in the all middle-earth books I remember, there is no mention of smeagol being good or bad at all. It's just called mean soul as in the example you gave. And because it's "mean soul" doesn't mean it's absolute evil. All that is known is that because of the ring, he got very bad and his life was ruined that's all! I mostly wonder if smeagol fought for melkor or manwe in the battle of dagor dagorath, i.e. in the army of the good or the army of the bad.

Except that Tolkien never says he did. Saying "Tolkien never says he didn't" (reasoning used by the charlatans behind The Rings of Power) is not argument enough. It's too big a gap to fill with wild supposition.

Also, given that dragons can fly, why on (Middle-)earth would Sauron not deploy them against Gondor? What would be the reasoning for not mentioning them at the assaults on Erebor, which is right next door to the Withered Heath? Sauron could basically win the War of the Ring if he had hundreds or thousands of dragons. Where are you even getting that number from? What is it based on?

there is a point you missed. There were already enough flying winged creatures, namely fellbeasts, against Gondor. And in the siege of Minas Tirith, they were very numerous, at the same time they inflicted heavy losses on the soldiers of Gondor. In the War of the Ring, dragons may have been used not only in the wars of the elves, but also in the famous battle of Dale. No matter how much they, they could not ensure win the war, because the third age dragons were not as big as the first age dragons. They were even smaller than half of first age dragons.

 

[Deimos]

Of all things said, point #4 is the most immediately 'interesting' to Ent.
He will do a little research on this.
If Smeagol was 'inherently good' or 'initially good' the Ring sure had an immediate impact on him, turning him within the space of time of but a few seconds and sentences, into a murderer.
Being of hobbit kind, this is a bit inconsistent with the rest of the hobbits' resistance to the ring's draw into corruption. (Deagol also was not entirely free from the immediate draw, being willing to at least fight over possession of it.)

Of course, the ring had a great 'desire' to be found...

Yet we 'bring to any situation all that is 'us' to begin with'... so such a prompt corruption, one would think, was inherently working within a field already more than apt toward corruption.

For the moment, it seems a great Speculation to Ent... but without what Ent would call 'common logic with regard to a foundational understanding of the real nature of beings (human or otherwise)."

When are we going to discuss this same topic mutatis mutandis with respect to Boromir and Denethor?
I lobbed the ontological ball into your court awhile back. 😉

 

[Ent]

When are we going to discuss this same topic mutatis mutandis with respect to Boromir and Denethor?

Ent has so many thoughts and things 'lobbed into his court' he can't keep track.
He is starting a physical list.
There are also several threads of significance going on in PM with several members... hard to keep up with all the questions and subjects there too.
Thanks for reminding Ent of this one.
Perhaps we should start a thread in some place where 'it just doesn't fit anything else'... and is acceeptable... and hope it doesn't spin too far into circles not fit for the Forum. (there is a great potential of that of course.)