🧝Arwen: why i hate her

[HLGStrider]

And you can still be annoyed with people who do like her and completely ignore the existence of any other female characters, even though they do a lot more.

I've encountered more dislike than like for Arwen, actually, except among A. the movie crowd who is clinging to the Warrior Princess and B. Some males who just know she was pretty.

I find Arwen's passive approach to life very unappealing, annoying, and downright dull.

I think passivity is all we can expect from her.

A. Arwen was not a shield maiden. All maidens can't be fighters. I wouldn't be. You admit you wouldn't go on an Orc hunt so I'd wager you wouldn't be. Arwen isn't going to go gallavanting around.

B. I wouldn't expect Elrond to let her do anything else, and I expect she's obediant, another virtue not popular in today's world.

And I like my characters flawed and pro-active and psychologically complex so I can have fun writing essays on them.

Well, if you compacted all the text on Arwen you'd get maybe five pages, so it would be impossible to write a character essay on her.

Arwen Vs. Eowyn the cat fight! who would win

Really? I think I'm leaving now. . .

Elgee is very scared. . .

of course arwen is a bleh! character and Eowyn is a very deep character that one can relate too.

Due to having about fifty more pages about her, yes.

I don’t find that among Tolkien’s most inspiring writings.

I do, but I have a weakness for anything about Aragorn.

I am reminded of similar complaints for much the same reason from generations of readers of Walter Scott’s Ivanhoe, readers who far prefer Rebecca to the staid and conventional and mostly unknown Rowena.

I find Rowena to be another character who gets a hard wrap. . .which is sad because I do identify with her a lot. . .all that sobbing. . .

 

[Rhiannon]

I think passivity is all we can expect from her.

A. Arwen was not a shield maiden. All maidens can't be fighters. I wouldn't be. You admit you wouldn't go on an Orc hunt so I'd wager you wouldn't be. Arwen isn't going to go gallavanting around.

There are more kinds of fighting than painting yourself up with woad and running around screaming blue murder- You can be pro-active and still sit prettily at home (under a stupid canopy if absolutely necassary). I'm not a physical activity kind of girl, which I freely admit and have the flab to prove, but I am still pro-active, I still try to make a difference, to make my own mark instead of passively sitting back and letting stuff happen to me. And you argue- 'fight'- on behalf of the things you believe in. Arwen annoys me not because she was ladylike, or obedient, or whatever, but because I am driven mad by her complete lack of any apparent wish to do anything. If you don't like your situation then go out and do something about it! Sitting around languishing and being weepy doesn't accomplish much (except maybe some embroidery).

 

[HLGStrider]

But do you know for a fact she wasn't proactive? We know she made a standard. We know she traveled before Aragorn. We don't know if she did afterwards.

All the assumption that she was weepy (we never see her cry in the books except when Aragorn dies, at which point you can't blame her) and complacent, is just assumption.

I don't think she talked with her father about it. I believe if she had it would've worsened Aragorn's case. Elrond and Aragorn had agreed not to talk about it. Elrond wanted it to be quiet.

 

[jimmyboy]

but we don’t see the reasons she is revered, other than being, it appears, extraordinary beautiful.

Not only that but she's also Elrond's daughter. As we know, Elrond was known and respected throughout Middle-earth. For thousands of years he was one of the main foes against Sauron, and people knew this. He was also considered one of the most wise in lore. Plus, she was the little sister of Elrohir and Elladan who also were known as stalwart foes of the enemy and his agents.

I think many, at least among the elves, also knew what happened to Elrond's wife. It's also very likely that Arwen was "daddy's little girl", and since his wife left I'm sure Arwen became the closest to his heart. Surely people knew this or could see it, and so naturally they'd hold her in high esteem as they did her father. Plus, she seems like she was a worthy and likeable girl so of course add that to what's been mentioned already and she would naturally be highly respected.

 

[Thorin]

What many of you are failing to realize is that Tolkien didn't need a reason for someone to be useful or revered other than for who they were. In Tolkien's world, a name, a heritage and the innermost heart were all that it took to gain respect and admiration, and that person had the RIGHT to be admired for those very characteristics. From that, heroic actions came forth as a fruit of that inner strength and beauty.

Luthien was still the most beautiful Elven maiden of ME in the First Age and revered by all BEFORE she did anything heroic like helping Beren get back a silmaril from Morgoth.

Arwen was a high elf, the daughter of Elrond and was like Luthien reincarnated. That is HUGE as far as admiration goes. Just those characteristics alone put her in the high esteem of the peoples of ME and deservedly so. She did not have to do anything.

With that behind you, can you not imagine why WOULDN'T Aragorn try for the kingship? This is where PJ's Aragorn fails by dumping the very thing book Aragorn strives for. He has the privilege that the most noble man on ME would die for...to have the love of Arwen Undomeil and be able to marry her.

What is a greater goal than that?

 

[Rhiannon]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
But do you know for a fact she wasn't proactive? We know she made a standard. We know she traveled before Aragorn. We don't know if she did afterwards.

By the same token, you don't know that she wasn't passive- so really this is a pointless argument because we don't have enough to go on. I just like being annoyed by Arwen I don't like her because I'm not interested in her enough to care.

 

[HLGStrider]

But by the same token, you can't expect others to dislike her or not like her.

Though I do admit, she never got her picture on a bubble gum card. How can you consider someone truly great who never got their picture on a bubblegum card?

 

[Rhiannon]

I don't expect other people to dislike her, although I do get annoyed with people who go on about wonderful elf princesses.

But Beethoven never got his picture on a bubblegum card either...

 

[jimmyboy]

But Beethoven never got his picture on a bubblegum card either...

Yes he did! I have his rookie card.

 

[Ravenna]

Part of the problem that Arwen has when compared to Eowyn is the fact that Eowyn is a much more modern type of woman, someone who can hold her own against the men; whereas Arwen herself is a more old fashioned type, a true mediaeval love interest, and after all, Tolkien's writing was in a mediaeval type of setting. She is more of a figurehead than a character in the true sense of the word.
We can identify with Eowyn much more easily, and as has been said before, there's so much more written about her, we get to know her feelings in far more depth.
Arwen, whilst admittedly waiting for her father's (somewhat reluctant) permission, had to be of a fairly strong character to do the one thing we know she did - marry a mortal! Thus going against thousands of years of Elvish tradition, a situation which had only arisen twice before. It also meant that she willingly deprived herself of eternal life and her entire family, including the chance of seeing her mother again in Valinor.
She may not have been out fighting Nazgul, but she remained faithful to her true love throughout, even when there seemed to be no hope. (outdated sentimentality I know, but at least she was consistent.)

 

[Saucy]

yes but still i believe she would a much how MORE "LIKEABLE CHARACTEER" if would of just said 'screw this" and gone out and kicked some evil, orc butt! something wich i believe her character was fully capable of given her strong will power.
and even in the medievial type setting tolkien managed to mingle out one female heroin so we can at least give him credit for that.


anyways if u wanna go beyond "my personal opinion" and into more technical ways of dealing with Arwen's character, i still dislike her. Just because she proves that all the pretty gurls have to do is sit around and wait and the boys will come to them!

 

[Rhiannon]

Powersauce has a point...I'm probably just shallow enough for a good part of my deep seated dislike of Arwen to be based on the general hate of the unattractive for the fundamentally beautiful.

 

[HLGStrider]

Eowyn was very lovely too. Probably more than one man was attracted to her but didn't approach because he was on a differing status level (Wormtongue didn't dare make an open move. . .even dispite her dislike for him he probably would've made an open declaration if he had been on a similar status).

However, I think the fighting thing is just as shallow as the beauty thing. It's like a man coming into a house, plopping an orc's head on the table and asking to marry the daughter of the house on that merit.

I don't find Eowyn's fighting to make her more likeable. I think it makes her more interesting, but not likeable.

Arwen probably isn't very interesting.

And of course being the world's most beautiful kitten, I know I'm prettier than Arwen (anyone who denies it gets hit with a pencil sharpener!)

 

[Rhiannon]

Eowyn was very lovely too. Probably more than one man was attracted to her but didn't approach because he was on a differing status level

I don't really think this is true, but I'll resist the urge to hijack this thread and go in to a long explanation of my interpretation of Eowyn's situation. See, I'm going good.

However, I think the fighting thing is just as shallow as the beauty thing. It's like a man coming into a house, plopping an orc's head on the table and asking to marry the daughter of the house on that merit.

I didn't follow this...It's not the fighting in and of itself, it's the doing-something-proactive, as opposed to passively letting events be controlled by other people. Maybe I'm just too bossy to like Arwen.

I don't find Eowyn's fighting to make her more likeable. I think it makes her more interesting, but not likeable.

See above. I have essays about this stuff (must...resist...hijacking...thread...)

Arwen probably isn't very interesting.

Nope. Or sympathetic (geeze, handsome wonderful guy falls in her lap, and oh look, he happens to be a king, how nice!). Like I said, good in a person, not good in a book character.

And of course being the world's most beautiful kitten, I know I'm prettier than Arwen (anyone who denies it gets hit with a pencil sharpener!)

Good point. It occurs to me that after the above mentioned shallowness, I am required to hate you. But it's nothing personal

 

[HLGStrider]

The part about fighting isn't directed at anything you said but at this:

yes but still i believe she would a much how MORE "LIKEABLE CHARACTEER" if would of just said 'screw this" and gone out and kicked some evil, orc butt!

I wouldn't describe what Eowyn did as this. I think Eowyn, if she'd just gone out to fight, would've been an uninteresting, juveniel character. Her other motives made her interesting.

I think Arwen couldn't have had her fate controlled by her and maintained her honor. She would've had to defy her father, for one thing.

I also don't see how strength of will equals prowess in battle. It probably wouldn't. Arwen probably couldn't lift a blade.

 

[Elfhelm25]

Interesting debates, eveyrbody !
I have to say I am more inclined to agree with Rhiannon, however. I don't think character should be measured on heroic warrior like fighting, but in a midievil - like setting, character WAS. Faramir was looked down upon for a lonnnng time simply because he was mroe peace loving than his brother. All members of the Fellowship ( hobbits included ) claimed leadership roles through swords and weapons. ( Think; Scouring of the Shire ). i think we need to keep in mind that in the "days" of the Fellowship bravery was a must for leaders and , well, that was that really. Now i'm not saying that Arwen should have been a leader, necessarly, but for goodness sake ! She was engaged to the big machomisso, the hero, ARAGORN! In my mind it was just more fitting to have had a character for Aragorn that fitted his abilities , even just with very strong contrasting qualities. the fact was, in my mind, Arwen ( from what we knew )didn't measure up to Aragorn. She did nothing that we knew of that made me think, Now THAT is a powerful couple. She reminded me of a beautiful shadow to Aragorn, and that wasn't what i was looking for by the end of Return of the King. Aragorn had become so much, and Arwen had done nothing. It seemed uneven. granted, we didnt know much about her, but doesnt that tell you something ? She was prolly too boring to write about in detail. Did you ever get the feeling Tolkien wanted her to be another Luthien, but gave up on her after describing her physical beauty? Luthien was a great character, and it felt like Tolkien didn't want another luthien by the end. Anyhoo, just my thoughts. I found Arwen dull and unwrothy by the end. Thus increasing my annoyance to her. the poop dull sap. She never had a chance.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Elfhelm25
In my mind it was just more fitting to have had a character for Aragorn that fitted his abilities , even just with very strong contrasting qualities. the fact was, in my mind, Arwen ( from what we knew )didn't measure up to Aragorn. She did nothing that we knew of that made me think, Now THAT is a powerful couple. She reminded me of a beautiful shadow to Aragorn, and that wasn't what i was looking for by the end of Return of the King. Aragorn had become so much, and Arwen had done nothing.

Maybe you should read my previous post. The facts of Middle Earth are that Aragorn could not reach Arwen's standards. Elrond was not out of line to require Aragorn to get the kingship to marry Arwen. It was his right as an Elven Lord with an Elven princess daughter because humans are NOT worthy to marry an elf. Arwen was far higher than Aragorn ever could be just because she was an Elven princess. She had eternal life, she was over a 1000 years old by then. Aragorn's only hope was that he was from the line of Numenor, a line started by Elrond's own brother. The point of their union is a testament to Arwen, not Aragorn. She lowered herself and made the incredible sacrifice of mortality for him when he had no right to even encroach on her to think about it.

The problem here is that you are all interpreting how interesting and useful Arwen is from a human perspective based on today's modern standards. You can't do that. You have to look at the history of the elves and their place in ME. Sure Luthien did something, but that was because of the situation she was in concerning Morgoth and Beren. Had she done NOTHING she still would have been the most revered being in ME at the time. Why? Because she just EXISTED as an elven princess. The same is true for Arwen. That simple fact alone puts her above Aragorn. You may find that 'boring' and elitest thinking on the elves' part but that is the way that Tolkien created them and that is the role they played in ME and the beings of ME all understood that.

 

[Elfhelm25]

I respect your opinion, Thorin, and you have some very good points. It's true that Tolkien wrote of a different time and atmosphere than today's standards, and in my opinion that makes it all the more interesting to discuss them using today's standards. Even in those day's standards, and yes, given the fact that elves were considered superior to humans, that still does not mean that Arwen could have been a more interesting character based on the values of those days. Being a superior being you would think she would have been developped...well, as superior then! Anyhoo, I found her disapointing when I read it for the first time, and that was also at the stage where I loved midievil-esque books. (Though I still do !)I think she could have been a very great character .I hope this debate continues. After all , it wouldn't be a debate without opposing sides, am I not right ??

 

[HLGStrider]

In my mind it was just more fitting to have had a character for Aragorn that fitted his abilities , even just with very strong contrasting qualities.

We know she has strong qualities, but they seem to be similar to Aragorn's:

Patience,
Fidelity,
Self-Sacrifice.

Aragorn is a natural leader. I don't know what the opposite positive to that is, but I think it would be supportive. I think I could make a case for that with what little we know of Arwen. The few times we see her speak or act, she is in support of Aragorn:
When they plight their troth, she encourages him by stating that he will be among the great that destroy the darkness (even when, at his own admission he cannot see this).
The Standard. I don't think I need to explain how this supported him. Also, if you think about it, it was a bit like sewing her wedding dress in front of her father. It says it was wrought in secret, doesn't it? Or perhaps I'm mixing it up with something else. . .I wonder if her father knew what she was sewing.

Aragorn is very brave. I think the opposite of this would be cautious and careful. I can't make any judgements from the info we have.

Aragorn is somewhat quiet and reserved. I believe Arwen to be as well from what I see. . .though a little softer around the edges.

Any other qualities you'd like to discuss?

She did nothing that we knew of that made me think, Now THAT is a powerful couple.

Arwen wasn't supposed to do anything. If she had it would've totally altered her character and probably made Aragorn lose interest. She was delicate and feminine and not a fighter. Aragorn spent his life around fighters. She was probably a breath of fresh air.

Personally, I think being a supportive wife and a mother is a very wonderful thing, it's something I plan to be to the best of my ability. I think Arwen probably was this. Greatness in the form of deeds is nothing to this, in my opinion.

Aragorn had become so much, and Arwen had done nothing.

Aragorn became so much. Arwen was so much.

She was prolly too boring to write about in detail.

I'm sure we could find the opposite but I still haven't read through the JRR letters (someone who has. . ? Anything on Arwen?). I really don't see anyway to flesh out Arwen without taking the point of view away from the Hobbits. There is one chapter that is written from Aragorn's point of view (the first in The Two Towers). I disliked it. Aragorn is my favorite character, but in that one I felt it wasn't right.

Did you ever get the feeling Tolkien wanted her to be another Luthien, but gave up on her after describing her physical beauty? Luthien was a great character, and it felt like Tolkien didn't want another luthien by the end.

He didn't even describe her beauty in great length. One or two sentences. I think he did want another Luthien in the end, otherwise he wouldnt' have written the Tale of Arwen and Aragorn.

and in my opinion that makes it all the more interesting to discuss them using today's standards.

Interesting but inaccurate. I don't even care for today's standards at much. Feminism grates on my nerves, for one thing, even when it has a point.

Being a superior being you would think she would have been developped...well, as superior then!

This really depends on your definition of superior, doesn't it? Elfishness is superior. Princessness is superior.

I don't think warriorishness is.

I think we can make a case for kindness in Arwen based on her giving the jewel to Frodo, her kind treatment of Aragorn when they first meet (at which point she probably saw him as practically an infant and pointed out their relation instead of mocking him as lesser blood).

I think we can make a case for intelligence and forsight based on her speech when she cleeves to Aragorn and the Standard.

I think she was reserved and probably submissive. Submissive used to be considered a virtue, and probably still should be. I think she did submit to Elrond and then transfered that submission to Aragorn.

 

[Rhiannon]

Feminism grates on my nerves, for one thing, even when it has a point.

A whole 'nother cauldron of aquatic beings...*fights impulse to hijack thread* We'll have to have a conversation about this later...

I remain and will always remain annoyed by Arwen as a literary character because she is plain and simple dull. Kind of like Jane from Pride and Prejudice. We know that she is sweet, lets people push her around, and...that's it. Not particularly interesting next to the vibrant Lizzie. Or even Beth from Little Women. She's sweet, lets people push her around, and dies. Both of them are foils to a more interesting main character, but Arwen by her absence fails to do even that effectively.