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Did 🧝Galadriel and Celeborn fight in ⚔️War of Wrath?

Well, that doesn't alter the fact that my question was, how do you know, for certain, that JRR Tolkien did not himself makes these emendations?

We don't, not for certain. Did CJRT make these changes for his own reasons? Maybe.

And generally speaking at least, for example, if an author describes a given character "Belle" as being the most valiant lady of Paris -- and let's imagine she is described as such three times in the first half of a book -- perhaps said author later decides that once is enough to give the reader the intended message.

What I do know is that Christopher Tolkien has explained that HOME does not note every change ever made to every text.
 
And yet Chris didnt remove 19232249842 freaking mentions of Fingon as so valiant blah blah blah. Or thousands mentions of Finrod as so sexy and hot.

Stereotypes huh?

Chris even mercilessly butchered the character of Nerdanel and turned her into the useless wife of Feanor. Don't tell me JRR himself omitted the passages about Nerdanel being super cool and awesome. These assumptions have no basis.
 
TheManInTheMoon said:
And yet ( . . . ). Don't tell me JRR himself omitted the passages about Nerdanel being super cool and awesome. These assumptions have no basis.
Click to expand...

You made the statement that CJRT cut out the two Galadriel descriptions. I've said that you
don't know this for certain . . .

. . . and I realize one could simply say this about other examples when comparing HOME to the constructed Silmarillion, but here I've only raised the question with respect to this matter specifically,
and the reason is that in the constructed tale Galadriel is described at one point as: "the only woman
of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, . . ."

. . . so, again generally speaking, the reader of The Silmarillion already knows that Galadriel is valiant,
and thus, if indeed JRRT himself had altered these other passages, Christopher Tolkien might not have felt the need to note them in HOME.
 
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I think you are missing what the Summons is here. This is the Eldar and Edain being summoned after the War of Wrath, for pardon and reward respectively, if I am not mistaken.
e.g.:
"Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. But Maedhros and Maglor would not hearken, and they prepared, though now with weariness and loathing, to attempt in despair the fulfilment of their oath; for they would have given battle for the Silmarils, were they withheld, even against the victorious host of Valinor, even though they stood alone against all the world. And they sent a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor their father made and Morgoth stole from him."

Consistent with what had appeared in print (except the unquoted part where Celeborn is Galadriel's close cousin and a Teleri from Aman, contradicting what had appeared in print).

"Canonically", Galadriel had fled Beleriand:
"For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."
Mirror of Galadriel
(Though when this passage was written Celeborn was conceived of as a Silvan Elf and ruler of Lorien, and that is the implication here. Fortunately only an implication and not a direct statement)
While your above quote seems to come from earlier variants in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", where Galadriel and Gil-galad were the children of Felagund.
 
Reminder that Galadriel and Celeborn were in Beleriand until the end of the First Age in the version where Celeborn is a Sindarin Prince (and in almost all the versions where Celeborn is from Valinor).

As Christopher explains:

"There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, where she says of Celeborn that "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen).

On the other hand, in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings appears a later version of the story; for it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age "In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women." And in the notes to The Road Goes Ever On (1968, p. 60) it is said that Galadriel "passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion." "

So if you agree that Galadriel crossed the Mountains in First Age, then you also imply that you agree Celeborn was not a Sinda. In his nandorin version Galadriel crossed the mountains alone and met Celeborn on the other side.

Christopher is missing a quote here. For in Appendix B of the first edition it is also stated Celeborn crossed the Mountains in early Second Age. So there's actually three later mentions of Celeborn and Galadriel crossing the Mountains in Second Age published by JRR Tolkien himself.

In the Nature of Middle-earth there are several quotes that are in line or almost in line with those later author published texts about Celeborn and Galadriel.

Such as this: "For love of Celeborn (who did not wish to leave Middle-earth), at the downfall of Angband and the ruin of Beleriand she crossed the Eryd Lindon into Eriador."

Or this: "Celebrían was born (it seems) early in the Second Age, when Galadriel refused to return to Eressëa, and passed over the Mountains. Probably SA 300."

Or this: "She probably married Celeborn soon after the overthrow of Morgoth, and when she (it appears, because of love for Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth yet) declined to return West to Eressëa, [fn1] they passed together over the “Mountains of Lune” into Eriador."

Or this: "Celeborn and Galadriel were not married (though betrothed) during the dreadful years of the “Battle of Wrath”,"

If they were not living in war in Beleriand then why they didn't get married? The Laws and Customs of the Eldar concerning marriage suggests you can marry if you are not living in war, but if you do you better not marry.

In People of Middle-earth, Of Dwarves and Men, it is stated Celeborn ruled Harlindon (west of the Mountains) in early Second Age, and Christopher directs us to LOTR Appendix B the revised edition where it is stated Celeborn and Galadriel lived for awhile in Lindon south of the Lune in early SA.

In Parma Eldalamberon XVII it is said: "This [the fact that the Silvian Elves spoke Sindarin] is explained by the fact that when Beleriand was ruined, and most of it was destroyed in the last war ending in the overthrow of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastward into Eriador and beyond. (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples...)"

In Unfinished Tales it is stated "For love of Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador."

In Unfinished Tales Christopher assumes Galadriel and Celeborn saved Elwing and gives us a note about Celeborn where it is stated he "escaped the Sack of Doriath".

The only mentions of Galadriel crossing the Mountains in First Age comes from the versions where Celeborn is not a Sinda of Doriath and they hadn't met in Beleriand.

And the only mention of Galadriel AND Celeborn crossing the Mountains in First Age comes from Treason of Isengard where Galadriel says "The lord and lady of Lothlorien are accounted wise beyond the measure of the Elves of Middle-earth, and of all who have not passed beyond the Seas. For we have dwelt here since the Mountains were reared and the Sun was young." In the notes Christopher elaborates that in this version Galadriel and Celeborn had both came from Valinor and then came to Lorien in the First Age and became its rulers. This was later discarded when Tolkien decided Celeborn is not from Valinor.

However in last years of his life Tolkien turned Celeborn again into an Elf from Valinor. For years he still went on with the conception that Galadriel and Celeborn only crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in the Second Age. But in last month of his life when he wrote Galadriel was not a rebel, but she and Celeborn came to Middle-earth with their own ship, he wrote that "Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age" - UT

However this version from Treason of Isengard, and this 'pure' Galadriel version who didn't join the rebellion, both contradict everything Tolkien ever published during his life.

she and Celeborn "did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid..."

Then Galadriel advised for a plan B (a plan to create a great alliance by building a power into eastwards and having the entire free people of Middle-earth as allies and befriending East people before Morgoth does), nobody truly listened to her and Celeborn. So it was natural for her wisdom to understand it would be useless for her to go to the North war. She knew it "to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid..." - UT

But when Valar decided to send aid there was no hopelessness anymore for the Elves

"Now when first Vingilot was set to sail in the seas of heaven, it rose unlocked for, glittering and bright; and the people of Middle-earth beheld it from afar and wondered, and they took it for a sign, and called it Gil-Estel, the Star of High Hope ... Then the Elves looked up, and despaired no longer; but Morgoth was filled with doubt." - Silmarillion, chapter 24

"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."

This quote does not imply that no Elves from Middle-earth participated in the War. What it do tell us is that the events of the journey, from Valinor to the battlefields in Middle-earth, were mostly unknown to the Elves of Beleriand and other regions of Middle-earth - since they were already in Middle-earth.

"But at the last Fionwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms...The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath." - Lost Road

Did Galadriel answer the summons into battle? She had no reasons to do not answer the summons. The only reason she was not present in the Siege of Angband and Bragollach and Nirnaeth was because she "judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid". But now that the Valar sent aid she and the other Elves "despaired no longer; but Morgoth was filled with doubt."

"Great war comes into Beleriand, and Fionwe summons all Elves, and Dwarves, and Men, and Beasts, and birds to his standards, who do not elect to fight for Morgoth." - Shaping of Middle-earth

A possibility is that Galadriel literally outright broke character and didn't answer the summons of Fionwe to ride to war against Angband, OR the more likely and logical possibility is that she acted in-character and fought against Morgoth in this war.
 
Reminder again, that Tolkien (via Galadriel) explicitly states that Galadriel left Beleriand before the fall of Nargothrond in LotR.
.

I have addressed this already. LotR makes no direct statement to that effect, "author published" has him a Sinda..
So no, I imply no such thing.
Perhaps you are implying that Galadriel was deceiving Frodo, or maybe becoming senile in her dotage...



And not in the Second Edition? Almost as though Tolkien thought better of that..

TheManInTheMoon said:
In the Nature of Middle-earth there are several quotes that are in line or almost in line with those later author published texts about Celeborn and Galadriel.
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I am not unaware.
And would that be the change Tolkien made from the first edition?

And, as already noted, that may be the 'implication' in LotR, but it is not stated.
Essentially.
Are you saying, in other words, it does not tell us whether Elves joined or not?

Yet earlier in the passage does it not say that
"Of the march of the host of Fionwe to the North little is
said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had
dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the
histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these
things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Lightelves
of Valinor."

The later passage in Lost Road seems more relevant.

Or, Galadriel and Celeborn had not been invented yet, and thus are not particularly relevant to those passages. in light of other "author published" writings which have her leaving Beleriand before the fall of Nargothrond, as well as writings that note only one physical combat (defending her mother's kin at the First Kinslaying) she was involved in.
And in keeping with Tolkien's statement that she did not participate in the Wars in Beleriand (which I think you helpfully quoted). Unlike, say, Elrond who did participate.
Did Galadriel break character, or is she breaking the character you are inventing for her?

It seems Tolkien's Galadriel is more in keeping with his statement found in Laws and Customs of the Eldar:
"For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."
MRaOW, Laws and Customs of the Eldar

Lets work on the travels conundrum:
Galadriel:
First Age
Valinor>Beleriand (Doriath and Nargothrond)(S, etc.)>Eriador (w/ Celeborn) (UT, in keeping with LotR)
Second Age:
>Lindon (refuses/is not pardoned) (RGEO)> Harlindon (w/Celeborn) (LotR)>Nenuial (has Celebrian) (UT, NoMe)>Eregion (RGEO (possibly with another interlude in Harlindon), UT, NoMe)>Lorien (before War of Elves and Sauron, w/Celebrian, Celeborn remains behind)>Imladris (after War of Elves and Sauron, w/Celebrian (Elrond falls in love), meets back up w/Celeborn) (UT)>Lorien(?) (w/Celeborn and presumably Celebrian)(UT)>Belfalas (sea longing, w/Celeborn and Celebrian)(UT)>Lorien(?)(before Last Alliance, presumably at some point after Numenoreans settle in Belfalas) (UT)>Imladris and/or Lindon (during Last Alliance).
 
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An Age at least, it seems, and likely to fade away again...
(I only found this because someone elsewhere was providing quotes from books (without citation) she obviously had not read, so I searched a couple of phrases and it became apparent she was lifting it from ManInTheMoons work here).
 
Some times it is apparent it is pointless to argue with people who try to ignore everything you quote.

The only person here who really knows his Galadriel is Either, and me.

"Galadriel and Celeborn did not have any significant role in the general course of events in the War of the Jewels. It is said that even before the Fall of Nargothrond (F.A. 495), she passed over the mountains to [5] Eriador, far from the turmoil of the last years of the First Age." - TG

This passage in TG is sourced to The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Mirror of Galadriel". But the problem is, in FotR Celeborn wasn't even ever present in Beleriand. Celeborn was not a Prince of Doriath according to FotR, he had never even been into Doriath, and Galadriel had never met him there. I'd let Tolkien's son himself explain this radically different versions:

"There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, where she says of Celeborn that "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."
In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen).

On the other hand, in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings appears a later version of the story; for it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age "In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women." And in the notes to The Road Goes Ever On (1968, p. 60) it is said that Galadriel "passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion." "

So in the versions where Celeborn is a Prince of the Sindar of Doriath Galadriel was actually in Beleriand until the end of it, meaning she had gone through the Ruin of Doriath and the rescue of Elwing with the Silmaril, defending Elwing in the Third Kinslaying, the War of Wrath and the final overthrown of Morgoth in this war. It can be said Tolkien contradicted himself, but not necessarily, I think it's possible to reconcile Galadriel's statement in FotR with Appendix and RGEO (which were published by Tolkien himself) and other writings of Tolkien (which were published by his scholars). Firstly, Galadriel doesn't specify which mountains she crossed, therefore the mountains can refer to any mountains in Aman and North West of Middle-earth, and secondly, Galadriel is oversimplifying the timeline by saying 'ere the fall of Nargothrond', this event of the Fall of Nargothrond is a definite point that even the slightly educated people (such as Pippin) in the lore of the Elder Days can understand that it's a long long time ago. In other word, ere the Fall of Nargothrond is a term used in-universe by some people to refer to a long long time ago especially when talking to people who are not masters of lore of the First Age.

"After the War of Wrath and the overthrow of Morgoth, she chose to remain with Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth, but also because she was one of those eager to explore Middle-earth from the beginning.[13] " - TG

I checked their source and saw it's again from an early version. One of Tolkien scholars dated Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn draft to around late 1950s, and although Tolkien's son himself didn't date this writing he agreed that it's from a early years and too many things in this draft were discarded. Although the passage from TG is not strictly inaccurate, but it's missing to mention her chief and dominant reason of rejecting the pardon of the Valar in later versions is always because of her pride. This is too many times stated in later writings, for instance in Shibboleth it's stated: "**Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth**."

"Celeborn ruled over the fiefdom of Harlindon .. Eventually, the couple crossed into Eriador with many Noldor in their following. Together with Sindar and Green-elves, they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial" - TG

TG is literally contradicting themselves, again. Celeborn ruling Harlindon is from the version where he was a Sinda who had gone through the War of the Jewels until the end of it, with his fiancee Galadriel, and after Beleriand sank into the Sea they setlled in Lindon/Harlindon. TG however is confusing and merging two wholly different versions together.

TG says by the year 300 SA Galadriel and Celeborn lived at Lake Nenuial. This is just from a draft and abandoned notes dated to later years of 1950s. This has no basis in what Tolkien himself published.

In LotR Appendix (revised edition) he published: In Second Age " In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel.... Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains .... 750 Eregion founded by the Noldor." And in the subsequent year Tolkien published in the Notes to Road Goes Ever On: "She passed over the Mountains of Ered Luin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion."

Meaning, Galadriel and Celeborn were there ruling Harlindon until 750 SA when they left and went to Eregion.

"They departed [from the Lake] for Eregion and arrived there by S.A. 750.[13][14] It was ruled by Celebrimbor, grandson of Fëanor and distant cousin of Galadriel." - TG

This kinda makes it look like they arrived to Eregion when it was already established, and TG is missing to mention Galadriel and Celeborn had a chief part in establishing Eregion, alongside their bestfriend Celebrimbor. Also TG is missing to point out almost the entire narrative of Galadriel in Eregion. There's almost no mention of her narrative with Dwarves, and her part against Sauron In Disguise.

"It was only sometime between S.A. 1350 and 1400 did she cross the Hithaeglir through Khazad-dûm and relocated to there with Celebrían becoming great among the Wood-elves.[13]" - TG

Again, discarded idea from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (1959). In 1960s writings, published in Unfinished Tales, Parma Eldalamberon 17, and Nature of Middle-earth, it is stated too many times: “Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion [in the year 1697] passed through Moria” “Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither [to Lorien] after the downfall of Eregion." “... "domination" of Galadriel and Celeborn ..." In Lorien. "...after the Fall of Eregion... They had passed through Moria with considerable following of Noldorin Exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien” and as Christopher elaborates in a writing from much the same time it is implied "after Eregion's fall Celeborn led this migration into Lorien while Galadriel joined Gil-Galad in Lindon."

Galadriel was a total badass in the entire narrative of Forging of the Rings and the War of the Elves and Sauron, even in the earlier version where she wasn't personally in the battlefield, yet TG has selected to not mention any of it.

"By the power of Nenya, the realm of Lórinand was strengthened and made beautiful." - TG

Why is this passage in Second Age timeline? Christopher Tolkien points out Galadriel using Nenya in Second Age was a slip in a hasty draft, this slip contradicted both the draft itself and the already established lore, which will be explained further more below.

"After the War of the Elves and Sauron ended, she passed again through Moria with Celebrían and came to Imladris, seeking Celeborn.[13] There she found him, and there they dwelt together for a long time.[13]" - TG

Never happened in the revised version. Celeborn had not retreated to Rivendell after the Fall of Eregion; as quoted above he had retreated to Lorien.

"But at some later time, Galadriel and Celeborn departed from Imladris and went to the little-inhabited lands between the mouth of the Gwathló and Ethir Anduin. There they dwelt in Belfalas, at the place that was afterwards called Dol Amroth" - TG

Galadriel never lived in Dol Amroth in "canon"

First let's see why she decided to live in Dol Amroth in the earlier version:

She used her Ring in the Second Age and "its power upon her was great also and unforeseen, for it increased her latent desire for the Sea and return into the West, so her joy in Middle-earth was diminished"

"the sea longing grew so strong in her that she ..." committed Lorinand to Amroth and determined " to leave Lorinand and to dwell near the sea." she "dwelt in Belfalas .... there Amroth their son at times visited them ... it was not until far on in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lorinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there"

In the note against these passages Christopher explains: "Galadriel cannot have made use of the powers of Nenya until a much later time, after the loss of the Ruling Ring; but it must be admitted that the text does not at at all suggest this (although she is said just above to have advised Celebrimbor that the Elven Rings should never be used)"

If you have read the Silmarllion and LOTR and its Appendix you see the same idea that Christopher is talking about is explained: Elves would have been enslaved if they had used their Rings as long as Sauron possessed the One. How come Galadriel breaks reality by heavily using Nenya in SA? Because... as Chris explained this version was written "very hastily".

If Galadriel had never used Nenya in SA, which she did not, because she could not, then she never grew to become so sick and long for the Sea so badly to go and live near the Sea for 5000 years.

There is a lot of discarded writings in the version which TG is talking about. For example, in later writings Galadriel actually returned to Lorien three times before she became its ruler in the Third Age.

Anyway, as Chris says: "it is not much clear in the late accounts where Galadriel and Celeborn passed the long years of the Second Age after the defeat of Sauron in Eriador; there are at any rate no further mentions of their agelong sojourn in Belfalas" and that for a very good reason, which me and Chris explained.

+ Tolkien wrote Galadriel and Celeborn did not partake in the War against Angband in the context of when Valar were not sending aid. And this is from the version where Galadriel and Celeborn were not present in the Battle of the Lammoth. In the Shibboletb of Feanor Galadriel goes through the Battle of the Lammoth. And we know for a fact valiant women fought in such times of crisis.

When Valar sent aid they had no reasons anymore to not take part in the War of Wrath. It doesn't matter if they were in Beleriand or Eriador. As we know from the Lost Road that many Elves of Eriador answered the summoms of Fionwe to battle. It doesn't matter if Galadriel fought against Angband as a warrior or as a healer. She must've either answered the summons or broke character. We know from the Lost Road that even women were present in the War of Wrath. All Edain fought for Fionwe and the entire Tirion participated in War of Wrath.
 
Personally, I think it makes sense that Galadriel judged defeating Morgoth was impossible without the Valar. I know that comes in a text where Celeborn is a Telerin Elf and we probably would think that was canon if Tolkien had expounded upon it more. Still, since the other part does not contradict established lore, shouldn't it be considered final intent?
 
TheManInTheMoon said:
Some times it is apparent it is pointless to argue with people who try to ignore everything you quote.
Click to expand...
Welcome to my world. I might change your statement above in just one small way, truncating it to: "It is pointless to argue."

conversation and discussion is good. but the fact is no amount of presentation of 'facts' will overcome the opinions of many.
It is what I have come to call The Religion of Opinion. And like most "religions", those who hold to it are intractable, in spite of any evidence given.

It is a rare bird indeed... (or elf, or tree, or dwarf, or human...or even Valar or Maiar)... who actually determines to: 1) - receive 2) - listen 3) - ponder 4) - research further 5) - consider again 6) - reform a perspective, and 7) - change.

Predominantly what we have is: 1) - receive 2) - compare to preference 3) - accept if agreement 4) - reject if disagreement. And there the story ends... intractability is already set in, and we need to grasp we are dealing with an entity in which the irresistible force and the unmoveable object have intentionally and unbreakably blended together to insure an unassailable position--yes, regardless of the 'facts'.

The Religion of Opinion has its doctrinal statement and membership criteria just like any other religion.
I shall be happy to present them upon request. (They are currently in revision but will be available soon.)

NOTE: this post will shortly be assailed by some who disagree with it: in spite of the facts.
 
I got the impression that we are not supposed to talk about religion on this forum, but at least in my circles, I have both had and witnessed many fruitful religious discussions. That said, I agree there are some people with "hardened hearts", as it were, to use religious terminology.
 
Ent most likely uses his term "The Religion of Opinion" as shorthand for the way some people put forth their opinions with a religious, perhaps better dogmatic zeal. The opinions he means need not have anything to do with actual religion.
As to discussions about religion, JRRT and Christopher Wiseman, second oldest of the foursome of JRRT's schooldays and early university days group TCBS, and the other to survive WW I, had such discussions, vigorous ones, during their schooldays while walking to and from school. I haven't found the precise quote in John Garth's 2003 "Tolkien and the Great War", but later on, probably after WW I, they avoided such discussions. Same with JRRT and C.S. Lewis after the latter had returned to practicing his religion in the Church of England (apparently JRRT had hoped he would become Catholic). Points of dogma are by their nature not open for discussions. That's the reason for the two great schisms in Christianity - and the schisms in Islam and Buddhism (and other religions), for that matter.
 
Just to clarify, discussion of Tolkien's views on religion -- the influence of his religion on his works, for example -- are permitted. The same for his political views. Arguments about religion or politics per se are prohibited.
 
Child of Varda said:
we are not supposed to talk about religion on this forum
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Simply put, we aren't. Olorgando, "who has a way of hitting the nail with his head" (Paul Harvey) describes how I employ it accurately.
Everyone has an opinion (or several dozen) on any given subject. Many hold them all at the same time even, changing their position in the midst of conversation.
The ultimate objective and only criteria is that the holder is "right on every thing" regardless of the facts.
The great majority of people "live there".
A little thought upon the matter will suggest why to the deeper observer.

I might only alter one part of the Curmudgeon's post, as I hold "Opinion" to have a far greater hold on mankind than does he I think:
Olorgando said:
perhaps better dogmatic zeal.
Click to expand...
Best here is "intractably entrenched zeal."
But then... Orlogando is known for his niceness and compassion of expression so as to avoid offense and conflict.
 
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