Did Ringwraiths Botch Murder in Bree?

[joxy]

Yes, the hobbits' sword practice and their presence at Boromir's death are well done, but they have nothing to do with the story as written- unless I've missed something and Tolkien did give M & P a special love for Boromir- if so, where is it in the book? The two scenes are extra to the book, yet so many scenes have to be left out because there isn't time for them- isn't there a contradiction there?
Gimli being saved from a fall that doesn't happen in the book would have worked quite well in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs; in FOTR it's silly.
M & P veg-pilfering would have been amusing in any children's film but again is silly here- especially THAT carrot! Again, PJ has time for this nonsense, but not for a whole lot of "real" action.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

First about the Ringwraiths:
I do think that Strider was right in his guess as to why the Ringwraiths would not attack Bree because his main reason for this was not because of the small number of Ringwraiths present but because the Ringwraiths knew that sooner or later the hobbits would leave Bree and have to make a journey through the wild. Also, they did not know that the hobbits would meet up with Strider, and they thought that the hobbits would be easy prey in the wild, far away from people. Strider knew this.

In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. FOTR, Strider

Now, as to sword practice, I actually liked that part, even though it was an added scene. In the books there is nothing whatsoever to tell about what the Fellowship did while on their march to Caradhras. I often have wondered what they did during their spare time, and I think that PJ made a wonderful guess.

Personally, I do not like Merry and Pippin being so immature, as they were not that way in the book. I did not like them stealing fireworks, and I did not like them stealing crops. However, I did think it was interesting how PJ used Merry and Pippin to pay a sort of tribute to Frodo's robbing of Farmer Maggot's crops. He was able to mix many scenes into one, and I do admire him for that - he's good at it.

I also do not mind Gimli's "No one touches a dwarf" part. It conveys the idea that dwarves are tough and will act like it.

 

[Talimon]

Originally posted by joxy
Yes, the hobbits' sword practice and their presence at Boromir's death are well done, but they have nothing to do with the story as written- unless I've missed something and Tolkien did give M & P a special love for Boromir- if so, where is it in the book? The two scenes are extra to the book, yet so many scenes have to be left out because there isn't time for them- isn't there a contradiction there?
Gimli being saved from a fall that doesn't happen in the book would have worked quite well in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs; in FOTR it's silly.
M & P veg-pilfering would have been amusing in any children's film but again is silly here- especially THAT carrot! Again, PJ has time for this nonsense, but not for a whole lot of "real" action.

PJ's goal wasn't to stick in as many scenes from the book as he possibly could. Go see Harry Potter if that's what you are looking for. He was looking for a way to tell the tale to a modern audience while still keeping the essence. Those small bits of comedy hardly ruin anything in my opinion, and you'll notice that Merry and Pippin loose thier happy-go-lucky attitude after Moria. PJ is having them grow and loose thier inocense over the course of the movies.

I love LotR, but lets keep some perspective here. As good as it is, and as real as it seems, it's still not quite history. It's myth, and as such nobody is hurt if some changes are made to make the movie more accessible. Let's put it this way: without those small comedy scenes, the movie would seem much colder and desolate. It would be far more difficult for a modern non-fantasy-reading audience to relate to the tale. Let's just accept the fact that we are talking about a different world at a different time, with wholly different people. If the movie is kept too serious it will fall down in ashes as every fantasy movie has before it. The trick isn't to be as hardcore as possible: it's to tell the tale to the average movie-goer. The fact that it maintains much of the book at all is something I am still overly thankful of. It would have been far too easy for PJ to make the movie more user-friendly for the non-fans, and he wouldn't have necessarily sold less for it. He has kept many important scenes. Heck, I'm even surprised the line "One ring to rule them all..." made it into the movie.

 

[joxy]

Originally posted by Talimon


PJ's goal wasn't to stick in as many scenes from the book as he possibly could. Go see Harry Potter if that's what you are looking for....Those small bits of comedy hardly ruin anything in my opinion....PJ is having them grow and loose thier inocense....Without those small comedy scenes, the movie would seem much colder and desolate. It would be far more difficult for a modern non-fantasy-reading audience to relate to the tale....He has kept many important scenes.

Of course it wasn't his goal, and that's not what I'm looking for. H Potter is excellent because it is so true to the book, but FOTR is too long to be treated the same way.
The comedy does spoil things, in my opinion, because it is so badly done, so out of tone with the rest of the film.
I can't equate innocence with silliness, which is what those scenes convey.
I believe audiences are brighter than they are given credit for- I don't think they need doses of slapstick every half an hour to keep their attention and to relate to the main story.
I should hope he has kept many important scenes; he would have had to change the title otherwise! Though, seriously, I still give the film 9 out of 10, as one of the best films I have ever seen, and from the advance shots it looks as if TTT and ROTK will be even better because "truer".

 

[ltas]

The scene with the Nazgul in the bedroom of "The Prancing Pony" did look very dramatic.
Did anyone else notice how STUPID it was?!
The Ringwraiths walk in. (Let's keep in mind that they're blind, so supposedly they should have an extraordinary sence of smell and hearing). Complete silence. No breathing. No smell.
Still, despite of the fact that there are no signs of hobbits being present, the Ringwraiths attack the pillows!!
As if that's not dumb enough, they need to thrust their swords through "hobbits" three or four times to realize their mistake!!! Pillows are soft and hobbits are not!!!! What kind of warrior are you if you can't notice the difference between hobbits and pillows?!

In the film the Ringwraiths are so helpless and lost most of the time, that you will almost feel sorry for them...

BTW: I do agree with the starter of the thread - the wraiths shouldn't have been in the "PP" in the first place. But since were now discussing PJ's interpretation in general and the bedroom scene in particular, I felt the need to point out other weaknesses of the scene as well, besides the fact that "that wasn't in the book, dammit".

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by joxy
...and from the advance shots it looks as if TTT and ROTK will be even better because "truer".

Don't hold your breath. We have Arwen at Helm's Deep bringing Elves from Lothlorien (is that in the book anywhere?) and then she takes up with some Rohanian refugees and a whole new plot develops. (err... umm... that would be a totally PJ plot that had no dream of existence in the book).

PJ in a recent interview even warned us Tolkien fans to hold our breath due to an increased number of changes in the next two movies because there wasn't enough material and depth in the last two novels to adequately develop the characters on the big screen. And of course, PJ (director of three or four other mediocre films) knows the best way to improve upon a book that is treasured by millions and has been read by some 75 million people. It was written by J. R. R. Tolkien... but what did he know anyway. He lived a while ago and was totally out of touch with this day and time. *Grond's voice drips with sarcasm.*

 

[joxy]

To Itas, we've established it shouldn't have been the Nazgul attacking the pillows anyway, but some of the local baddies.

Originally posted by Grond
We have Arwen at Helm's Deep bringing Elves from Lothlorien and then she takes up with some Rohanian refugees and a whole new plot develops....PJ----warned there wasn't enough material and depth in the last two novels to adequately develop the characters on the big screen....And of course, PJ (director of three or four other mediocre films) knows the best way to improve upon a book

Well thanks for the bad news Grond!
There was far too much of Arwen at Rivendell, and this makes it clearer than ever that PJ's concern is to get value for money out of Liv Tyler's fee- let the story go hang!
Not enough material and depth- what's he been reading, some strange equivalent of "Lamb's Tales from Shakespeare"?
Your last sentence may be sarcasm Grond, and I don't know anything about PJ's previous films, but this news justifies any degree of sarcasm!

 

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Grond
Don't hold your breath. We have Arwen at Helm's Deep bringing Elves from Lothlorien (is that in the book anywhere?) and then she takes up with some Rohanian refugees and a whole new plot develops. (err... umm... that would be a totally PJ plot that had no dream of existence in the book).

PJ in a recent interview even warned us Tolkien fans to hold our breath due to an increased number of changes in the next two movies because there wasn't enough material and depth in the last two novels to adequately develop the characters on the big screen. And of course, PJ (director of three or four other mediocre films) knows the best way to improve upon a book that is treasured by millions and has been read by some 75 million people. It was written by J. R. R. Tolkien... but what did he know anyway. He lived a while ago and was totally out of touch with this day and time. *Grond's voice drips with sarcasm.*

1) 95% of those readers have taken the films with complete open arms. Go ask your average Tolkien fan on the street what he thinks.

2) You need to stop spreading fake rumours. Richard Taylor said Arwen isn't at Helm's Deep. End of story.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Talimon


1) 95% of those readers have taken the films with complete open arms. Go ask your average Tolkien fan on the street what he thinks.

2) You need to stop spreading fake rumours. Richard Taylor said Arwen isn't at Helm's Deep. End of story.

I must apologize then. I forgot what I had already written once in another thread. That is, that Arwen was to be at Helm's Deep.... the scene's were even shot but then PJ changed his mind because she didn't seem to do well in combat/action scenes. (I posted this somewhere.) The fact remains that PJ intended initially for Arwen Evenstar to appear at Helm's Deep.

So, it was not a false rumour. It was a directorial change of direction.You need to look at the poster's comments with more clarity Talimon. I am one who enjoyed the film immensely. I am also one who realizes that it could have been so much better if PJ had maintained the integrity of the author. Arwen's scene at the Ford's of Bruinen did nothing to strengthen the story. It didn't make the story more diverse. It was a shameless ploy to get the big name female lead on camera sooner rather than later. You movie supporters need to start calling the shots with a little more truth yourselves. Most of the Tolkien purists here loved the film... we just didn't much like the story.

 

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Grond
I must apologize then. I forgot what I had already written once in another thread. That is, that Arwen was to be at Helm's Deep.... the scene's were even shot but then PJ changed his mind because she didn't seem to do well in combat/action scenes. (I posted this somewhere.) The fact remains that PJ intended initially for Arwen Evenstar to appear at Helm's Deep.

So, it was not a false rumour. It was a directorial change of direction.You need to look at the poster's comments with more clarity Talimon. I am one who enjoyed the film immensely. I am also one who realizes that it could have been so much better if PJ had maintained the integrity of the author. Arwen's scene at the Ford's of Bruinen did nothing to strengthen the story. It didn't make the story more diverse. It was a shameless ploy to get the big name female lead on camera sooner rather than later. You movie supporters need to start calling the shots with a little more truth yourselves. Most of the Tolkien purists here loved the film... we just didn't much like the story.

I must appologize myself, then. When I see a post that rips apart PJ's movie as if it was the creation of the devil itself I make the assumption that the one who wrote that post wasn't too fond of the movie. Forgive me if I misunderstood you. I never knew it was possible to enjoy a movie immensly and still despise it's story. That kind of leaves me wondering what you did like about the movie. The visuals? The cinematography? Sorry, but if the story is so weak then those elements will not sustain a movie, esspecially not for 3 whole hours. This has been demonstrated with Episode I and nearly every other special effects packed film as of late. I will not buy the argument that you enjoyed the film but didn't enjoy the story. There is just too much contradiction in such a statement.

What I can buy is this: You enjoyed most of film/story, but there were parts you didn't like. Fine. I might still argue with you, but then it goes over to personal taste.

I can't speak on what PJ said, mostly due to the fact that I have never seen that quote or proof. People have claimed it often, though.

And this sounds pretty sure to me:

Don't hold your breath. We have Arwen at Helm's Deep bringing Elves from Lothlorien (is that in the book anywhere?) and then she takes up with some Rohanian refugees and a whole new plot develops. (err... umm... that would be a totally PJ plot that had no dream of existence in the book).

Sounded to me like you meant that, though maybe there was sarcasm there I didn't pick up.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Itas:

Even though I did start this thread complaining about the Ringwraiths not attacking The Prancing Pony, I still do not necessarily think that the scene is that bad.

The Ringwraiths walk in. (Let's keep in mind that they're blind, so supposedly they should have an extraordinary sence of smell and hearing). Complete silence. No breathing. No smell.

Remember that throughout the entire movie PJ does not make it clear in anyway that the Ringwraiths are supposed to be blind - in fact it seems that they can see quite well. He also does not make the fact clear of the keeness of their other senses.

Still, despite of the fact that there are no signs of hobbits being present, the Ringwraiths attack the pillows!! As if that's not dumb enough, they need to thrust their swords through "hobbits" three or four times to realize their mistake!!! Pillows are soft and hobbits are not!!!! What kind of warrior are you if you can't notice the difference between hobbits and pillows?!

IMO, the thrusting of the swords through the hobbits multiple times was an outburst of frustration. I would have been frustrated had I been in their shoes!

Since PJ does not ever tell the real senses that Ringwraiths have and do not have, I feel that this scene fits with the rest of the of the movie.

 

[Galadhwen]

Don't they also walk into the Prancing Pony with one hand out in front of them, that could be a way of showing their blindness

 

[WakanaTachibana]

a few things to consider 1.I quote p 239 The Fellowship of the Ring First Edition - A knife in the dark... "In the early night Frodo woke from deep sleep suddenly as if some sound or PRESENCE had disturbed him".
2. Does it not seem odd that if Bill and his buddies came into the room that they would trash it considering that they could see. If wraiths had come in they would probably be vicious to the room, considering they could not exactly see what they were looking for.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Don't they also walk into the Prancing Pony with one hand out in front of them, that could be a way of showing their blindness

LOL. Actually I believe they come in holding their swords with both hands.

Does it not seem odd that if Bill and his buddies came into the room that they would trash it considering that they could see. If wraiths had come in they would probably be vicious to the room, considering they could not exactly see what they were looking for.

I think that Bill and his buddies would have been more than capable to trash the room considering that those linked to Sauron enjoy mess and caos (for the book, of course). But I like the idea that the Ringwraiths trashed the room (in the movie) for that reason. However, could they see in the movie? I get the feeling that they could.

 

[ltas]

As far as I can remember, they did walk into the Prancing Pony with one hand out in front of them.

However, could they see in the movie? I get the feeling that they could.

Not necessarily. They do move around quite self-confidently, but once you get used to blindness, you really can accomplish a lot without the need to use your eyesight. You will rely on your other senses, your capability to memorise the layout of surroundings and the distance between objects and good sense of direction.

All the same, the bedroom scene is not that bad, if we suppose that the Wraiths are not blind. (why didn't I ever think of that before).

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

As far as I can remember, they did walk into the Prancing Pony with one hand out in front of them.

Hmmm... I will have to watch it - you may be right.

Yeah, in the movie I really do not think that the Wraiths are blind. Look at how the one Wraith chased Frodo to the Brandywine. Then in Bree they walk right up to the beds in a totally unfamiliar room. On Weather top they seem to see the hobbits quite plainly. At the Ford they speak directly with Arwen.

 

[Eledhwen]

PJ seems to have followed Bakshi's plot more closely than Tolkien's. Of all PJ's changes, the only one I really dislike is the Prancing Pony. When I read the book, I saw in my mind a typical English rural inn populated with regulars and travellers and a friendly, overworked innkeeper, where orkish characters would have stood out like a sore thumb. The one in PJ's film was dark and scary - more like the Jamaica Inn at Bolventor, where any one of the guests could have been a murderer.

I can live with Arwen joining the fellowship at Weathertop, the first half of the book being missing, etc, but will the real Barliman Butterbur please step forward.

(in case I'm sued, the Jamaica Inn is a lovely welcoming inn these days, which has gained great publicity from DuMaurier's dark book).

 

[ltas]

Well, I just realised why the Wraiths had no reason to trash the bedroom in "The Prancing Pony".
The Ring! The One Ring was not in the hobbits' bedroom and therefore the Ringwraiths had no need to enter the room, since they can feel the Ring's presence (or absence).

Oh, and Eledhwen, the inn was indeed very much unlike Tolkien described it (I didn't like it either), but IMO the dark and scary atmosphere of PJ's "PP" fitted very well with PJ's FOTR storyline.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, I just realised why the Wraiths had no reason to trash the bedroom in "The Prancing Pony".
The Ring! The One Ring was not in the hobbits' bedroom and therefore the Ringwraiths had no need to enter the room, since they can feel the Ring's presence (or absence).

Hence why it was not really the Ringwraiths who did it in the first place. Very good point!

I also thought that PJ's inn was very different from the book inn, but I agree with Itas that it fit well with the movie.

 

[Alcfalath]

Good Afternoon,

The Ringwraiths walk in. (Let's keep in mind that they're blind, so supposedly they should have an extraordinary sence of smell and hearing). Complete silence. No breathing. No smell.

This I most definately disagree with. Ringwriaths live ain the shadow world and for them to exist it the mortal realm they must be clothed in physical form with physical transport. Hense them completely clothed in black hooded garments. In view to blindness, THEY ARE IN THE SHADOW WORLD and cannot see well in daylight. The Nazgul see as Frodo saw with the Ring on and through this would have been able to see at night.

The fact that they had one arm outstrentched forward with the other wielding their swords facing forward was defencive, for anyone who stumbled in front of them so they grasp them with their gauntlets and stab them to death with their swords.

Well, I just realised why the Wraiths had no reason to trash the bedroom in "The Prancing Pony".
The Ring! The One Ring was not in the hobbits' bedroom and therefore the Ringwraiths had no need to enter the room, since they can feel the Ring's presence (or absence).

Also misinterpreted. The wraiths could always sense the rings presence, but not completely accurate, unless the bearer was wearing it or if it was in direct view. Also true for their ability to sense any living creature. So when the Raiths raided the Hobbits room, they knew that the Hobbits were in the Parncing Pony due to Frodo's incident with the ring. Also when the Raiths appeared, all they had todo is use the 'Black Breath' to coax anyone in the town about finding the Hobbits. The Hobbits were foreigners, which was strange enough as hobbits didn't venture much out of 'The Shire' anymore, plus the incident with the Ring would have had people talking and it would have spread over Bree faster than Shadowfax could run. Hence when the Raiths attcked the beds, seeming that they were full, when they found out the beds was empty, they would have been furious and, in trying to find any clues on the Hobbits whereabouts, tore apart the room and destroyed it.

Have a think about this.

Good Afternoon.