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Differences between the first age and the third age

Turin_Turambar

Mormegil
Joined
Mar 25, 2021
Messages
532
1-In the first age, the number of battles that balrogs participated in was limited. They appeared towards the end of the war in the battle of Dagor Nuin Giliath and were first seen with the Battle of Dagor Bragollach, then they were involved in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and fall of Gondolin and the War of Wrath. And in none of these wars the number of Balrogs was more than 7.There was At most 7 Balrogs each battle.In the War of the Ring, there is only one talk of the existence of a balrog. Durins bane. Since this balrog gained strength and became stronger over time, it became more powerful than any balrog in the first age except the gothmog. In the third age, the beings closest in physical strength to the first age balrog are mumakils. But mumakil only appeared in 2 wars. Battle of ithilien and battle of the pelennor fields. But the number of mumakils in these wars was not as few as balrogs. In battle of the pelennor fields existence of 20 mumakils is mentioned.

2-The First Age was entirely the Age of Elves and the Third Age was the Age of Men, so in the first age the elves fought more, and in the third age the humans fought more.

3-Saruman's Uruk-hais Sauron's Uruks and olog-hais were stronger than Morgoth's orcs and trolls. That's why humans and elves fighting in wars of the Third Age had a harder time than elves who fought in wars like the Dagor Aglareb Battle of Lammoth Battle of Aglon Pass in the First Age.

4-In the First Age, dragons fought en masse in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad Fall of Gondolin and the War of Wrath. The fellbeasts in the Third Age fought in the Battle of Osgiliath and Siege of Gondor, at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and at the Battle of the Morannon.

5-The population of the men in the Third Age was much larger than the population of the Elves in the First Age. In the First Age only 1.2 million elves lived in Beleriand, while in the Third Age there were 2 million men in Gondor alone.

6-The wars in the first age were not fought at the same time. They were all fought in sequence. But most of the wars in the War of the Ring took place in the same time period. So there were 2 wars at once.

7-The elves of the third age were wiser and more knowledgeable than the elves of the first age.

8-The men of the third age were stronger than the men of the first age. because they were descended from numenor. The reason the first age elves looked stronger than the third age elves was because they had seen the two trees of valinor.
 
Tolkien portrayed an overall decay from the Elder Days to the Third Age. But I think we need to be careful when Tolkien mentions the earlier superiority as he can often refer to cultural superiority rather than military superiority. The modern world in Tolkien's day was vastly superior to the medieval one militarily, but Tolkien would disagree it was also culturally improved. I think the decay of Middle-earth that is spoken of is its distancing from the Valar and Valinor. In a way, a representation of our world distancing from Christianity.

In the Second Age the Numenorieans were increasing in every way except the military, as we read, "The Dunedain became mighty in crafts, so that if they had had the mind, they could easily have surpassed the evil kings of Middle-earth in making of war and the forging of weapons; but they were become men of peace." Just because they are more advanced does not make them better at war. And it was after they began to fall and become under the sway of Sauron, they did advance militarily.

However, in the case of the Elves, who are the focal point of The Silmarillion, they had been reduced in military might. The Noldor elves were significantly reduced from their wars with Morgoth in the First Age and later after the battle of the Last Alliance. Further, in the Third Age, the elves were leaving Middle-earth and returning to the west across the seas as their numbers continued to dwindle. The elves are the closest to Eru Iluvatar of the free peoples, and their leaving Middle-earth is in every way a reduction of strength in the last ages. Other examples include the binding of Morgoth, the fall of the Numonrians at the hands of Eru, and later the decay of the northern kingdom of Arnor and the physical removal of the Valar from the world as Eru remade Middle-earth.

Consider, however, that Tolkien at various times mentions losses of power, but these can also be gains of overall power. Take Moria; the tremendous dwarven city was lost to the orcs. However, it was now a power of the followers of Melkor so while the dwarves mourned, Sauron would celebrate the rise of the power of Moria for the shadow.

The Hobbit contains such examples of lost power; however, the book is also on restoring power to the dwarves and the men of Lake Town that can now flourish. Like the Middle Ages, Middle-earth is full of rising and falling kingdoms and peoples. For example, during the Third Age, "Gondor rises to a peak of power, almost reflecting Númenor, and then fades slowly to decayed Middle age' 'Tolkien writes in letters 131.

What is often ignored is the fact there were also many increases in power in the Third Age. Even using the Noldor elves, we see their numbers reduced, but individually they increase in power. Individually, Noldor elves such as Glorfindel and Galadriel increased in power drastically. And Noldor elves returning to Middle-earth itself was a power increase. The Noldor elves dwindled, that is true, but the Silvan elves and men increased after the First Age. In Unfinished Tales, we read in the Second Age, "the numbers of the silvan elves grew again... man also were increasing in numbers and power." Other elves that never crossed the seas had multiplied in strength, such as Thranduil's people, who grew in numbers. And in the Third Age, the Rohirrim grew in numbers and power while Gondor decayed, but Gondor itself decayed partly because of the rise in power in Mordor. But overall, "men increased in power and numbers," Robert Foster writes.

Crafting as well saw improvements. In the Second Age, "the smiths of Ost-in-edil surpassed all that they had conceived before. They made the rings of power." In The Hobbit, we read the dwarves of Erebor were "at the height of their wealth and skill." In Rivendell before the council of Elrond, Gloin says the dwarves "in mining and building we have surpassed the old days." Gloin said his people decided they were ready to recapture Moria, "now, at last, we had the power and numbers to return." Minas Tirith was built by the Numonrians yet it was improved by the dwarves; as we read in The Peoples of Middle-earth The Tale of Years of the Third Age, "the reign of King Aragorn was long and glorious. In his time, Minas Tirith was rebuilt and made stronger and fairer than before, for the king had the assistance of the stone rights of Erebor."

Many of the earlier ages great castles would translate to the Third Age as well. The increase in fortresses made like Isengard, Minas Ithuil, The Black Gate, Minas Tirith, Barad Dur, Helms Deep, The Seats of Seeing, Echor Rammas, Weathertop, and others was created or improved over time, likewise the beacons of Gondor were created after the Rohrimms inhabitation of Rohan allowing for fast communication.

Another aspect of Tolkiens is the increase in wisdom and power over time; often, the older the being, the wiser and more powerful it becomes. Frodo on Gandalf the Grey's return to the Shire observed his "face more lined with care and wisdom." Sauron in the Second Age became more powerful than Melkor in the First Age, yet seemingly, Sauron in the Third Age grew even more significant. We read in of the rings of power in the Third Age, "the shadow returned, and its power increased...now the shadow grew even greater."

Numenoreans are another example of how power increases over time. As we read in Akallabeth, the "Dunedain....increased in stature both of mind and body." Among the Numanorians came "Eonwe among them and taught them and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed....grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like the firstborn than any other of the kindred of men." Tolkien writes in letters 131 that "meanwhile Númenor has grown in wealth, wisdom, and glory, under its line of great kings of long life, directly descended from Elros, Earendil's son, brother of Elrond." Thus, over time, an increase in power was expected.

There were various technological advancements in the Third Age. Siege equipment saw a giant leap. Sauron created the massive battering ram Grond for the siege of Minas Tirith. Siege towers, catapults, ladders, ballistic, grappling hooks were used and not seen in the First Ages. Saruman created some form of bomb or explosive to use at Helms Deep. Saruman also created napalm and used it to kill the ent Beechbone during the attack on Orthanc.

In the Third Age, there were breeding improvements, such as Saruman's breeding of the Uruk-hai superior to the existing orcs. The trolls that were bred in the Third Age were "no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons." Thus, it was in the Third Age they became a powerful and valuable weapon for Sauron. Sauron also improved a breed of trolls, the Olog-hai, over any in the First Ages.

"In their beginning... the Elder days, these were creatures of dull and impish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them, what they could learn, and increasing their wits and wildness."
-J.R.R Tolkien Myths Transformed Morgoth's Ring HarperCollinsPublishers 2015

The Haradrim domesticated the Mumakil in the Third Age and used them in warfare. It seems the horse lords of Rohan improved the breeding of horses, and Gandalf was the first to tame Shadowfax and was then able to utilize his speed to significant effect. He says of Shadowfax, "I have never seen the like of him." The fell beasts were bred and fed foul meats by Sauron in the Third Age to enlarge them and he gave them to the ringwraiths. When Legolas saw one, he cried, "what new terror is this." In Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings, we read that "dragons reappeared" and grew in number and even great dragons returned like Smaug. Smaug, who grew in power over time, "I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong."

"They [Istari] belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came."
-Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth The Istari Ballantine Books NY 1988

The five wizards came to Middle-earth during the Third Age adding great power to the age. Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White was also a drastic increase in power. Other advancements in the latter ages include the rings of power used by Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf. The nine rings of men and the ringwraiths, the dwarven rings owned by Sauron. Sauron's use of the Palantir to try and control others' thoughts is another.

The rise of Mordor to great power is yet another example. Mordor grew to such power in the Third Age that Treebeard said, "If Sauron of old destroyed the gardens [brown lands], the enemy today seems likely to wither all the woods." Mordors's power was so great that Elrond says, "if I had a host of elves in armor of the Elder Days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor."

When the Witch King leads his army out of Minas Morgul, we read "so great an army never issued from that vale since the days of Isildur's might" and "no-host so fell and strong in arms had yet assailed the fords of Anduin, and yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth." Denethor said the stoke against Minas Tirith was but only one finger in the hand of Sauron now moving against the free peoples. He told Gandalf, "you may triumph on the fields of Pelennor for a day, but against the power that has now arisen, there is no victory." In The Last Debate, Gandalf agreed with Denethor, saying to the free peoples' leaders to "ponder the truth in these words." Barely had they beat off the first strike, and they couldn't withstand another. Sauron had kept a more significant part of his army in Mordor because he hastened his attack due to Aragorn. He also sent forces to attack Lorien, the Gondorian coastline, and Dale.

More examples come from the dead men of Dunharrow being put into action. The ents united for the attack on Isengard as they found their numbers strong; it seems many trees had become ents. The awakening of the Balrog in Moria, the reforging of Anduril, and the emergence of mankind uniting under Aragon who made Minas Tirith "more fair than it had ever been, even in the days of its first glory." The ringwraiths, who are said in the rings of power and the Third Age, were "the mightiest of Sauron's servants" and the strongest of them all the Witch King himself. Warg riders first appeared at the five armies' battle and were used by the orcs of the misty mountains and Isengard.

In general, an increase takes place over time. Think of how much the hobbits grew through the war of the ring. If they remained in the Shire, they would have stayed as ordinary hobbits and could not have done anything with the ruffians. But they grew in power and were able to overthrow ruffians and Saruman, a Maiar, because of all they had learned and experienced.

The First Ages are seen as more powerful by many because of the Valar and Maiar. This is because these beings were all but lost to Middle-earth when the earth was remade after the assault on Valinor by the Numonrians in the Second Age. But if we look just at Middle-earth itself, then the loss of Valar is not as significant as assumed.

The Valar resided in paradise, not Middle-earth. They rarely came to Middle-earth and only fought once in the First Age and none in the second. In appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, we read Orome "alone of the Valar came often to Middle-earth in the Elder days." So the only Valar lost would be Melkor, who the Valar captured at the end of the First Age. Yet, he was surpassed by Sauron's power by the Second Age.

Looking at the Maiar who resided in Middle-earth for each age might surprise many—taking the conservative view here of Maiar as only those directly stated as being Maiar. Rather than some who hold a more liberal view making eagles, ents, Ungoliant, Huan, Shelob, and some other creatures thrown in that category. It can't be disproved, but unless Tolkien made it clear, or there is an excellent reason, I stick to who he confirmed as Maiar.

So in the Third Age, the Maiar are the 5 wizards, Sauron, the Balrog [perhaps 1 or 2 more still in hiding "the Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth"] making a total confirmed of at least 7. Perhaps also Tom and Goldberry.

The First Age powers are Melian [for a time], Ossë, Ulmo [along coasts and waterways], Sauron, and the balrogs. That gives 4 plus the balrogs. If we hold to the 3-7 balrogs in the history of middle-earth that Tolkien indicated, that would bring the total to as low as 7.

The Second Age has fewer Sauron and the surviving balrogs as few as 1, Durin's Bane. Thus we do not see a drastic decrease in power with the Maiar and Valar regarding those who live in, or visit Middle-earth. And it seems to increase over the Second Age. As we read of the Second Age in Akallabeth, "Middle-earth went backward and light and wisdom faded."
 
The First Age is further removed from human history. A great conqueror like Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon would not be wholly alien to Genghis Khan 1800 years later - both are solidly historical characters, about whose reigns and conquests a good deal known. They belong in what is essentially the same world, despite the differences between their cultures. What they achieved, they achieved by purely human means: not by the help of Valar, Maiar, Wizards, Elves, Ents, Trolls, Men, Hobbits, Balrogs, Orcs, Dragons, or the like.

In the second and third ages, we are still in the partly mythical world. The weapons of the men of Numenor are recognisably historically realistic, as are the Winged Crown of Gondor, the tower of Tar-Minastir on Oromet, the changing of the succession by Tar-Aldarion, the civil war in Numenor, and much more. The war against Sauron, a fallen Maia, is not - neither is the Disaster of the Gladden Fields: the Men are superhuman compared to us (attaining a height of eight feet is not, for us, a sign of blessing from the Valar, but a symptom of pituitary disease), and the enemies are even more powerful. Our wars are not fought with evil magic reserved to those mighty enough by nature to wield it - but Sauron used evil magic in his.

And in those Ages, a Tale of Years is kept, even if there is no formal writing of history.

In the last years of the First Age, during the 600 or so years when the Elves make war on Morgoth, that world is even more mythical. Men play a very significant, but minor, part. The Elves are by nature, and especially as a result of their sojourn in the Blessed Realm, far mightier & more glorious than Men. The dog Huan is not only larger than the dogs of Men, but is also endowed on three occasions with speech intelligible to Men. Glaurung, Father of Dragons, is even more loquacious, as well as being a very wily, cruel and formidable enemy.

And before that period in the First Age, the life of the Elves is entirely Elvish, and for that reason outside human reckoning, and thus, outside history. And if they, whose lives at least began in a definite (though lost) location in Middle-earth, are outside human history until discovered by Men, the Valar and Ainur are even less involved in history. The Maia Uinen is held in great reverence by the Numenoreans, but (unlike the Vala Ulmo appearing off Nevrast to Tuor) she is not seen intervening in human history. She remains numinous, active in history, but inaccessible.

The Voyage of Earendil is a voyage "outside" history, into the Numinous Beyond, to the Valar who are from the Numinous Beyond, though they dwelt still on Earth. It is, in essence, the same kind of story, as when a fisherman is lost in a cloud bank, and discovers an unknown land of gods, or sleeping heroes: whether the heroes are Finn Mac Cumhail & the Fianna, or King Arthur. The 1976 version of King Kong, which puts Skull Island behind a bank of everlasting cloud, is a modern version of this motif. in such stories, the unintending mariner comes away safely, and can never rediscover the island. The equivalent for Earendil is, to be unable to return to the Hither Lands of Middle-earth. The versions of that motif show the human traveller existing "beyond" everyday, or historical, time, geography, and other historical relationships. That is why, in Lothlorien, the passage of time is not historical/human (as it is in the Shire, Rohan, or Gondor), but Elvish.

The later the Age, the more historical Middle-earth and its Peoples become. In the War of the Ring, we have both "pre-historically prehistoric" beasts - and what appears to be gunpowder. Guy Fawkes in 1605 might well have recognised the gunpowder; and would have been completely at a loss if he had met any Orcs, fell beasts, or Mumakil.
 
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Tolkien portrayed an overall decay from the Elder Days to the Third Age. But I think we need to be careful when Tolkien mentions the earlier superiority as he can often refer to cultural superiority rather than military superiority. The modern world in Tolkien's day was vastly superior to the medieval one militarily, but Tolkien would disagree it was also culturally improved. I think the decay of Middle-earth that is spoken of is its distancing from the Valar and Valinor. In a way, a representation of our world distancing from Christianity.

In the Second Age the Numenorieans were increasing in every way except the military, as we read, "The Dunedain became mighty in crafts, so that if they had had the mind, they could easily have surpassed the evil kings of Middle-earth in making of war and the forging of weapons; but they were become men of peace." Just because they are more advanced does not make them better at war. And it was after they began to fall and become under the sway of Sauron, they did advance militarily.

However, in the case of the Elves, who are the focal point of The Silmarillion, they had been reduced in military might. The Noldor elves were significantly reduced from their wars with Morgoth in the First Age and later after the battle of the Last Alliance. Further, in the Third Age, the elves were leaving Middle-earth and returning to the west across the seas as their numbers continued to dwindle. The elves are the closest to Eru Iluvatar of the free peoples, and their leaving Middle-earth is in every way a reduction of strength in the last ages. Other examples include the binding of Morgoth, the fall of the Numonrians at the hands of Eru, and later the decay of the northern kingdom of Arnor and the physical removal of the Valar from the world as Eru remade Middle-earth.

Consider, however, that Tolkien at various times mentions losses of power, but these can also be gains of overall power. Take Moria; the tremendous dwarven city was lost to the orcs. However, it was now a power of the followers of Melkor so while the dwarves mourned, Sauron would celebrate the rise of the power of Moria for the shadow.

The Hobbit contains such examples of lost power; however, the book is also on restoring power to the dwarves and the men of Lake Town that can now flourish. Like the Middle Ages, Middle-earth is full of rising and falling kingdoms and peoples. For example, during the Third Age, "Gondor rises to a peak of power, almost reflecting Númenor, and then fades slowly to decayed Middle age' 'Tolkien writes in letters 131.

What is often ignored is the fact there were also many increases in power in the Third Age. Even using the Noldor elves, we see their numbers reduced, but individually they increase in power. Individually, Noldor elves such as Glorfindel and Galadriel increased in power drastically. And Noldor elves returning to Middle-earth itself was a power increase. The Noldor elves dwindled, that is true, but the Silvan elves and men increased after the First Age. In Unfinished Tales, we read in the Second Age, "the numbers of the silvan elves grew again... man also were increasing in numbers and power." Other elves that never crossed the seas had multiplied in strength, such as Thranduil's people, who grew in numbers. And in the Third Age, the Rohirrim grew in numbers and power while Gondor decayed, but Gondor itself decayed partly because of the rise in power in Mordor. But overall, "men increased in power and numbers," Robert Foster writes.

Crafting as well saw improvements. In the Second Age, "the smiths of Ost-in-edil surpassed all that they had conceived before. They made the rings of power." In The Hobbit, we read the dwarves of Erebor were "at the height of their wealth and skill." In Rivendell before the council of Elrond, Gloin says the dwarves "in mining and building we have surpassed the old days." Gloin said his people decided they were ready to recapture Moria, "now, at last, we had the power and numbers to return." Minas Tirith was built by the Numonrians yet it was improved by the dwarves; as we read in The Peoples of Middle-earth The Tale of Years of the Third Age, "the reign of King Aragorn was long and glorious. In his time, Minas Tirith was rebuilt and made stronger and fairer than before, for the king had the assistance of the stone rights of Erebor."

Many of the earlier ages great castles would translate to the Third Age as well. The increase in fortresses made like Isengard, Minas Ithuil, The Black Gate, Minas Tirith, Barad Dur, Helms Deep, The Seats of Seeing, Echor Rammas, Weathertop, and others was created or improved over time, likewise the beacons of Gondor were created after the Rohrimms inhabitation of Rohan allowing for fast communication.

Another aspect of Tolkiens is the increase in wisdom and power over time; often, the older the being, the wiser and more powerful it becomes. Frodo on Gandalf the Grey's return to the Shire observed his "face more lined with care and wisdom." Sauron in the Second Age became more powerful than Melkor in the First Age, yet seemingly, Sauron in the Third Age grew even more significant. We read in of the rings of power in the Third Age, "the shadow returned, and its power increased...now the shadow grew even greater."

Numenoreans are another example of how power increases over time. As we read in Akallabeth, the "Dunedain....increased in stature both of mind and body." Among the Numanorians came "Eonwe among them and taught them and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed....grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like the firstborn than any other of the kindred of men." Tolkien writes in letters 131 that "meanwhile Númenor has grown in wealth, wisdom, and glory, under its line of great kings of long life, directly descended from Elros, Earendil's son, brother of Elrond." Thus, over time, an increase in power was expected.

There were various technological advancements in the Third Age. Siege equipment saw a giant leap. Sauron created the massive battering ram Grond for the siege of Minas Tirith. Siege towers, catapults, ladders, ballistic, grappling hooks were used and not seen in the First Ages. Saruman created some form of bomb or explosive to use at Helms Deep. Saruman also created napalm and used it to kill the ent Beechbone during the attack on Orthanc.

In the Third Age, there were breeding improvements, such as Saruman's breeding of the Uruk-hai superior to the existing orcs. The trolls that were bred in the Third Age were "no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons." Thus, it was in the Third Age they became a powerful and valuable weapon for Sauron. Sauron also improved a breed of trolls, the Olog-hai, over any in the First Ages.

"In their beginning... the Elder days, these were creatures of dull and impish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them, what they could learn, and increasing their wits and wildness."
-J.R.R Tolkien Myths Transformed Morgoth's Ring HarperCollinsPublishers 2015

The Haradrim domesticated the Mumakil in the Third Age and used them in warfare. It seems the horse lords of Rohan improved the breeding of horses, and Gandalf was the first to tame Shadowfax and was then able to utilize his speed to significant effect. He says of Shadowfax, "I have never seen the like of him." The fell beasts were bred and fed foul meats by Sauron in the Third Age to enlarge them and he gave them to the ringwraiths. When Legolas saw one, he cried, "what new terror is this." In Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings, we read that "dragons reappeared" and grew in number and even great dragons returned like Smaug. Smaug, who grew in power over time, "I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong."

"They [Istari] belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came."
-Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth The Istari Ballantine Books NY 1988

The five wizards came to Middle-earth during the Third Age adding great power to the age. Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White was also a drastic increase in power. Other advancements in the latter ages include the rings of power used by Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf. The nine rings of men and the ringwraiths, the dwarven rings owned by Sauron. Sauron's use of the Palantir to try and control others' thoughts is another.

The rise of Mordor to great power is yet another example. Mordor grew to such power in the Third Age that Treebeard said, "If Sauron of old destroyed the gardens [brown lands], the enemy today seems likely to wither all the woods." Mordors's power was so great that Elrond says, "if I had a host of elves in armor of the Elder Days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor."

When the Witch King leads his army out of Minas Morgul, we read "so great an army never issued from that vale since the days of Isildur's might" and "no-host so fell and strong in arms had yet assailed the fords of Anduin, and yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth." Denethor said the stoke against Minas Tirith was but only one finger in the hand of Sauron now moving against the free peoples. He told Gandalf, "you may triumph on the fields of Pelennor for a day, but against the power that has now arisen, there is no victory." In The Last Debate, Gandalf agreed with Denethor, saying to the free peoples' leaders to "ponder the truth in these words." Barely had they beat off the first strike, and they couldn't withstand another. Sauron had kept a more significant part of his army in Mordor because he hastened his attack due to Aragorn. He also sent forces to attack Lorien, the Gondorian coastline, and Dale.

More examples come from the dead men of Dunharrow being put into action. The ents united for the attack on Isengard as they found their numbers strong; it seems many trees had become ents. The awakening of the Balrog in Moria, the reforging of Anduril, and the emergence of mankind uniting under Aragon who made Minas Tirith "more fair than it had ever been, even in the days of its first glory." The ringwraiths, who are said in the rings of power and the Third Age, were "the mightiest of Sauron's servants" and the strongest of them all the Witch King himself. Warg riders first appeared at the five armies' battle and were used by the orcs of the misty mountains and Isengard.

In general, an increase takes place over time. Think of how much the hobbits grew through the war of the ring. If they remained in the Shire, they would have stayed as ordinary hobbits and could not have done anything with the ruffians. But they grew in power and were able to overthrow ruffians and Saruman, a Maiar, because of all they had learned and experienced.

The First Ages are seen as more powerful by many because of the Valar and Maiar. This is because these beings were all but lost to Middle-earth when the earth was remade after the assault on Valinor by the Numonrians in the Second Age. But if we look just at Middle-earth itself, then the loss of Valar is not as significant as assumed.

The Valar resided in paradise, not Middle-earth. They rarely came to Middle-earth and only fought once in the First Age and none in the second. In appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, we read Orome "alone of the Valar came often to Middle-earth in the Elder days." So the only Valar lost would be Melkor, who the Valar captured at the end of the First Age. Yet, he was surpassed by Sauron's power by the Second Age.

Looking at the Maiar who resided in Middle-earth for each age might surprise many—taking the conservative view here of Maiar as only those directly stated as being Maiar. Rather than some who hold a more liberal view making eagles, ents, Ungoliant, Huan, Shelob, and some other creatures thrown in that category. It can't be disproved, but unless Tolkien made it clear, or there is an excellent reason, I stick to who he confirmed as Maiar.

So in the Third Age, the Maiar are the 5 wizards, Sauron, the Balrog [perhaps 1 or 2 more still in hiding "the Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth"] making a total confirmed of at least 7. Perhaps also Tom and Goldberry.

The First Age powers are Melian [for a time], Ossë, Ulmo [along coasts and waterways], Sauron, and the balrogs. That gives 4 plus the balrogs. If we hold to the 3-7 balrogs in the history of middle-earth that Tolkien indicated, that would bring the total to as low as 7.

The Second Age has fewer Sauron and the surviving balrogs as few as 1, Durin's Bane. Thus we do not see a drastic decrease in power with the Maiar and Valar regarding those who live in, or visit Middle-earth. And it seems to increase over the Second Age. As we read of the Second Age in Akallabeth, "Middle-earth went backward and light and wisdom faded."
I beg to differ. Where was it written that Sauron, a Maiar, could surpass the mightiest of all Valar, Melkor?
 
I beg to differ. Where was it written that Sauron, a Maiar, could surpass the mightiest of all Valar, Melkor?

I do not have time to fully address this at the moment. I will just make statements unsupported that I believe are often ignored.

-the difference in the classes elves, maiar, Valar etc are not as great as many believe
-great diversity can happen after the original categories creation
-power can be lost and gained at various stages
 
I beg to differ. Where was it written that Sauron, a Maiar, could surpass the mightiest of all Valar, Melkor?
A common misconception that raises the hackles on my neck as few other misconceptions do. Sauron never, ever surpassed the original Melkor / Morgoth. It was all Morgoth's own (un-)doing, due to his uncontrollable nihilistic rages (my interpretation).

To quote from "The History of Middle-earth" volume 10 "Morgoth's Ring", section "Myths Transformed" VII (page 394 in my 1994 HarperCollins paperback):

"Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First {emphasis mine}. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'.

[This goes on for several pages. I'll just give two more quotes.]

p. 396: "Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness."

p. 400: "The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention upon the North-west."

@1stvermont : your turn. ;)
 
I appreciate that indeed power is fluid, and the fact that Melkor poured some of his power into the corruption of Arda and its beings. It is actually these very facts that lead to my thinking that Morgoth's power is not comparable to that of Sauron, in that it transcends Sauron's, encompassing all evil that was, is and shall be. Indeed I prefer a broader definition of power, not just a matter of raw physical strength but really of dominion over beings and continued impact over the course of history. We could say Ungoliant or the balrogs that rescued Morgoth from her were more powerful than Morgoth. But that to me would be comparing Connor Mcgregor to Xi Jinping and missing the point of what power really is.
I really like your quote that the whole of Middle Earth is Morgoth's ring. An indestructible, source of power so long as Arda stands.
 
I believe Tolkien meant the opposite: Morgoth dispersed his strength throughout Middle-earth, weakening his personal, "incarnate" self. He did this in order to poison the Creation, as he had attempted to disrupt the Music.

It was a nihilistic way of expressing or materializing his ego, as Olorgando points out; the association with the pure nihilism of Ungoliant underlines this, but also shows the logical end of such a process.

Sauron clearly learned the lesson, and manifested his own egotism in a different way.
 
I believe Tolkien meant the opposite: Morgoth dispersed his strength throughout Middle-earth, weakening his personal, "incarnate" self. He did this in order to poison the Creation, as he had attempted to disrupt the Music.

It was a nihilistic way of expressing or materializing his ego, as Olorgando points out; the association with the pure nihilism of Ungoliant underlines this, but also shows the logical end of such a process.

Sauron clearly learned the lesson, and manifested his own egotism in a different way.
I agree, the only question is, while losing his incarnate strength, did he not gain in influence and sway over the beings corrupted by him? Morgoth commanded Balrogs and dragons, something Sauron could never do at the peak of his power.
 
A common misconception that raises the hackles on my neck as few other misconceptions do. Sauron never, ever surpassed the original Melkor / Morgoth. It was all Morgoth's own (un-)doing, due to his uncontrollable nihilistic rages (my interpretation).

To quote from "The History of Middle-earth" volume 10 "Morgoth's Ring", section "Myths Transformed" VII (page 394 in my 1994 HarperCollins paperback):

"Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First {emphasis mine}. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'.

[This goes on for several pages. I'll just give two more quotes.]

p. 396: "Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness."

p. 400: "The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention upon the North-west."

@1stvermont : your turn. ;)

I actually don't have much to say here. I agree that Morgoth at creation was the height of "power" in ME that even Sauron with the ring could not match. I just think Tolkien was clear power can rise and fall beyond the original created hierarchy.
 
[D]id [Morgoth] not gain in influence and sway over the beings corrupted by him?
Yes, Morgoth controlled much of Middle-earth, and of Arda, through his dispersed power. To expand upon one of the citations (from “Myths Transformed” in Morgoth’s Ring) given earlier by Olorgando and touched upon by Squint-eyed Southerner,

Melkor “incarnated” himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the … physical matter of Arda. … A vaster and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. … But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original “angelic” powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. For this reason … enormous material ruin was a … consequence of any direct combat with him… This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth. … Sauron’s relatively smaller power was concentrated; Morgoth’s vast power was disseminated.
​

I ... think Tolkien was clear power can rise and fall beyond the original created hierarchy.
As a Vala, Morgoth slowly regenerated his strength during his ages of exile in the Void after the Valar expelled him from Eä at the end of the First Age. This is reflected in the (oft-mentioned, oft-misquoted, oft-maligned) Second Prophecy of Mandos: Eventually, Morgoth would regain enough strength to renter Arda and cause problems once more.
 
I just think Tolkien was clear power can rise and fall beyond the original created hierarchy.
As a Vala, Morgoth slowly regenerated his strength during his ages of exile in the Void after the Valar expelled him from Eä at the end of the First Age. This is reflected in the (oft-mentioned, oft-misquoted, oft-maligned) Second Prophecy of Mandos: Eventually, Morgoth would regain enough strength to renter Arda and cause problems once more.
Unfortunately this is absolutely not clear to me. How would they do this, regaining strength, or even, as 1stvermont states, rising beyond the original created hierarchy? Which hierarchy, as seems clear to me, was created by Eru even before the Music of the Ainur. That they - or rather Melkor - could mess with the music of the other Ainur, OK, but with their own design by Eru (which would have given each definitely finite powers)? Can JRRT have really meant something like this? From what source (it would have to be outside themselves) could they draw the power to recover, or even rise above their native power?

And btw, I skimmed "Myths Transformed" searching for Alcuin's quote (it starts at the bottom of p. 399 of my paperback). Every time I do so, it reinforces my opinion that "MT" is the absolute low point of JRRT's writing ... 😤
 
Tolkien portrayed an overall decay from the Elder Days to the Third Age. But I think we need to be careful when Tolkien mentions the earlier superiority as he can often refer to cultural superiority rather than military superiority. The modern world in Tolkien's day was vastly superior to the medieval one militarily, but Tolkien would disagree it was also culturally improved. I think the decay of Middle-earth that is spoken of is its distancing from the Valar and Valinor. In a way, a representation of our world distancing from Christianity.

In the Second Age the Numenorieans were increasing in every way except the military, as we read, "The Dunedain became mighty in crafts, so that if they had had the mind, they could easily have surpassed the evil kings of Middle-earth in making of war and the forging of weapons; but they were become men of peace." Just because they are more advanced does not make them better at war. And it was after they began to fall and become under the sway of Sauron, they did advance militarily.

However, in the case of the Elves, who are the focal point of The Silmarillion, they had been reduced in military might. The Noldor elves were significantly reduced from their wars with Morgoth in the First Age and later after the battle of the Last Alliance. Further, in the Third Age, the elves were leaving Middle-earth and returning to the west across the seas as their numbers continued to dwindle. The elves are the closest to Eru Iluvatar of the free peoples, and their leaving Middle-earth is in every way a reduction of strength in the last ages. Other examples include the binding of Morgoth, the fall of the Numonrians at the hands of Eru, and later the decay of the northern kingdom of Arnor and the physical removal of the Valar from the world as Eru remade Middle-earth.

Consider, however, that Tolkien at various times mentions losses of power, but these can also be gains of overall power. Take Moria; the tremendous dwarven city was lost to the orcs. However, it was now a power of the followers of Melkor so while the dwarves mourned, Sauron would celebrate the rise of the power of Moria for the shadow.

The Hobbit contains such examples of lost power; however, the book is also on restoring power to the dwarves and the men of Lake Town that can now flourish. Like the Middle Ages, Middle-earth is full of rising and falling kingdoms and peoples. For example, during the Third Age, "Gondor rises to a peak of power, almost reflecting Númenor, and then fades slowly to decayed Middle age' 'Tolkien writes in letters 131.

What is often ignored is the fact there were also many increases in power in the Third Age. Even using the Noldor elves, we see their numbers reduced, but individually they increase in power.
I'm still trying to figure this out. Did they just stop having kids? The 2nd and 3rd Ages saw long stretches of peace yet the Noldor and Sindar seem to have had their numbers stagnate or decrease.
The ringwraiths, who are said in the rings of power and the Third Age, were "the mightiest of Sauron's servants" and the strongest of them all the Witch King himself.
Okay, can someone explain the Ringwraiths to me in terms of power? They're clearly lesser than Balrogs, Dragons, and Sauron, yet they're treated as terrifying weapons in Sauron's hands. I guess compared to Orcs and Trolls they're clearly more powerful and skilled but it still seems like a significant downgrade from what Melkor had.
In general, an increase takes place over time. Think of how much the hobbits grew through the war of the ring. If they remained in the Shire, they would have stayed as ordinary hobbits and could not have done anything with the ruffians. But they grew in power and were able to overthrow ruffians and Saruman, a Maiar, because of all they had learned and experienced.

The First Ages are seen as more powerful by many because of the Valar and Maiar. This is because these beings were all but lost to Middle-earth when the earth was remade after the assault on Valinor by the Numonrians in the Second Age. But if we look just at Middle-earth itself, then the loss of Valar is not as significant as assumed.
I think it's also fair to say that things in the 3rd and 4th Age are simply more mundane in their advancement. We don't see the creation, for instance, of anything like the Elessar or palantíri. While Andúril is reforged, we don't see the creation of any other legendary blades (like Anglachel, Anguirel, Glamdring, Orcrist, or even Sting). Even fancy new buildings seem to be the province of, at the latest, the first third of the 3rd Age. Beyond that we simply seen improvements or smaller scale building.

Power, control, and numbers seem to be just as large or larger, however. Skill of the people fighting, HOW they fight. Sauron's forces increased in native power (Olog-Hai & Uruk-Hai). But even these breedings seem less...supernatural than the original creation of the Orcs and Trolls.
 
3-Saruman's Uruk-hais Sauron's Uruks ( . . . ) were stronger than Morgoth's orcs ( . . . )

Bu what if they weren't?

No doubt when the Uruks first appear out of Mordor they are notable for that time, but we are thousands of years after the Orcs first arose in Middle-earth. Stature-wise, and in a Silmarillion context (see The List of Names, HOME V), a Tolkien-written entry for Orcs includes " . . . sometimes translated "goblins" but they were of nearly human stature."

Compare this to the "huge orc-chieftain" in Moria who, despite being huge, was yet "almost man-high" . . . this a very arguably a Black Uruk from Mordor (these orcs are mentioned as being present on the previous page) who threw Boromir to the ground (!) and avoided Aragorn's first blow.

Stature-wise anyway, this great Uruk is described in nearly the same terms as Tolkien's Silmarillion Orcs. And in my opinion this syncs up well with the Half-orcs that Saruman bred, for they are seemingly taller, described as man-high by Meriadoc Brandybuck (not "nearly", or "almost" man-high).

We also find (text X, Myths Transformed, Orcs) that under the domination of Morgoth, Men could be made to mate with Orcs: "producing new breeds, often larger and and more cunning."

And before NOME was published, who would have guessed at these Eastern Orcs who laughed at Sauron?

"The Orcs of various kind (creatures of Morgoth) were to prove the most numerous and terrible of his soldiers and servants; but great hosts of them had been destroyed in the war against Morgoth, and in the destruction of Beleriand. Some remnant had escaped to parts of the Misty Mountains and the Grey Mountains, and were now multiplying again. But further East there were more and stronger kinds, descendants of Morgoth's Kingship, but long masterless during his occupation of Thangorodrim . . ." NOME XVIII Note On The Delay Of Gil-glad And The Numenoreans


Granted, I don't have a "slam dunk" statement that the Third Age Uruks were a return to the stature and strength of Orcs of earlier times. Again, they indeed seem notable when they appear out of Mordor, in 2475 sweep across Moon-land . . .

. . . but so far, it's hard for me to believe that the First Age Orcs -- again, who seem to be of the same stature as even the "huge" Uruk in Moria anyway -- were all of lesser strength than the Uruks who showed up thousands of years later.

Possibly many of these nearly human stature orcs were slain, and left to their own, the orc survivors bred as they would, and trained less than they would have under someone like a Sauron or Saruman, diminishing somewhat over time in stature and skill . . .

. . . and thus, by selective breeding (to produce larger types) and special training, the Uruks arose in the Third Age, who were more like the Orcs of the First Age, or even more like some of these Eastern Orcs noted in NOME.

Just a proposal.

I could be wrong . . . but if so, my excuse will be that SES has been pounding my head recently,
and I can't remember why!

In the Third Age, there were breeding improvements, such as Saruman's breeding of the Uruk-hai superior to the existing orcs.

I don't believe Saruman produced Uruks by breeding Orcs with Men. Rather, I believe he used Uruks and Men to produce (the taller, man-high) Half-orcs, some of whom were more Orc-like than others

That said, there's a debate about this and other "Uruk versus Uruk-hai" matters -- in these halls somewhere -- that runs for about a thousand pages, so maybe I shouldn't poke this bear!
 
Unfortunately this is absolutely not clear to me. How would they do this, regaining strength, or even, as 1stvermont states, rising beyond the original created hierarchy? Which hierarchy, as seems clear to me, was created by Eru even before the Music of the Ainur. That they - or rather Melkor - could mess with the music of the other Ainur, OK, but with their own design by Eru (which would have given each definitely finite powers)? Can JRRT have really meant something like this? From what source (it would have to be outside themselves) could they draw the power to recover, or even rise above their native power?
My understanding was that the Ring allowed Sauron to perform feats he couldn't have before and thus technically increased his power, or at least his control.
And btw, I skimmed "Myths Transformed" searching for Alcuin's quote (it starts at the bottom of p. 399 of my paperback). Every time I do so, it reinforces my opinion that "MT" is the absolute low point of JRRT's writing ... 😤
Is that when he tried to pull the whole "The world was always round" garbage? I REALLY didn't like that attempt at a revision.

. . . but so far, it's hard for me to believe that the First Age Orcs -- again, who seem to be of the same stature as even the "huge" Uruk in Moria anyway -- were all of lesser strength than the Uruks who showed up thousands of years later.

Possibly many of these nearly human stature orcs were slain, and left to their own, the orc survivors bred as they would, and trained less than they would have under someone like a Sauron or Saruman, diminishing somewhat over time in stature and skill . . .

. . . and thus, by selective breeding (to produce larger types) and special training, the Uruks arose in the Third Age, who were more like the Orcs of the First Age, or even more like some of these Eastern Orcs noted in NOME.

Just a proposal.
I have a proposal of my own:
We know that Tolkien kinda vacillated between Orcs being corrupted men and corrupted elves. Yet we also know that Boldog was, at one time, considered a lesser Maia in "orc-form". We know that incarnate Maia can breed. What if, hear me out, it's a mixture of all three of these things. Corrupted elves, bred with orc-form Maia, and later with corrupted men. This would explain their change of appearance (orc-form Maia), and their mortality (corrupted men, as Elf-Maia pairings produce immortals).
 
My understanding was that the Ring allowed Sauron to perform feats he couldn't have before and thus technically increased his power, or at least his control.
How can the One Ring increase his power if its power was entirely derived from his pouring the better part of his native power into it? Uh-uh.
As to the control - and this was almost entirely over the Three Great Elven Rings in whose creation he had no part, as Celebrimbor had made sure of that - that seems plausible; a focusing of that better part of his native power to make it more effective. But it also left him with less than half his native power for some minor matters - like keeping / gaining control over all of Middle-earth ... 🤨
 
Is that when he tried to pull the whole "The world was always round" garbage? I REALLY didn't like that attempt at a revision.

Tolkien was musing about round world notions well before the MT texts. In my opinion the idea wasn't ultimately an attempt, nor ultimately a revision . . . as I think it ultimately became part of a multi-perspective legendarium, alongside flat-world notions.

My theory is that it was not to be part of the Quenta Silmarillion tradition, but part of the Fall of Numenor traditions (plural), for example.
 
I have a proposal of my own: ( . . . ) What if, hear me out, it's a . . .

Fingers In Ears GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY
 
Is that when he tried to pull the whole "The world was always round" garbage? I REALLY didn't like that attempt at a revision.
I still don't. really, Though much of Hostetter's NoMe seems to have that as a given (I've only read it once, so far). No, one part when he totally puffed up Melkor to - I'm woefully (or not) ignorant of the celluloid or magnetic tape or more recent electronic storage systems "mythologies" - a kind of Arda-Q (that strange "The Next Generation" guy portrayed by John de Lancie, to my limited memory of the series). When I read that, I was asking myself if someone had slipped JRRT some illegal "pipe-weed" lookalikes into the tobacco pouch he was using that day. More generally speaking, I was wondering if he was drifting towards Sci-Fi ...
 

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