🧝Galadriel in the Amazon Series

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Indeed, we shall, for an unending Age! (Another reference to Námo; it's not like I could help it-)

You seem to have a particular connection with Namo, despite him shunning you. It is really quite amazing.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

You seem to have a particular connection with Namo, despite him shunning you. It is really quite amazing.

Such is the bond betwixt Vala and Maia that hath endured for Four Ages, and shall for another Three (they do say it's the Seventh Age in the modern times, so...we were basically writing in the past all this time...)

Sometimes I even wonder if my bond with Námo is stronger than my bond with you...

 

[Lithóniel]

Neither shall I! The Second and Ninth of the Aratar will ne'er!


Nanwen, Lithóniel! Nanwen o Calad! Nanwen o nin! Nai emmë ala ea ciltina! Lye nér ninya Tercáno, nér lye ala?

(Return, Lithóniel! Return to the Light! Return to me! May we not be sundered! You were my Herald, were you not?)

No. This is the light! You must join me! You’ll come to learn that this is the right side to be on. At first I was hesitant, but I have come to realize THE EGGS ARE THE LIGHT! 🥚🥚🥚

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

No. This is the light! You must join me! You’ll come to learn that this is the right side to be on. At first I was hesitant, but I have come to realize THE EGGS ARE THE LIGHT! 🥚🥚🥚

The Light is the Light! 'Tis of the Valar, and thou are not within it!

Let us be sundered e'ermore; mayhap such is better for thee! (Why, another reference to Námo...)

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

No. This is the light! You must join me! You’ll come to learn that this is the right side to be on. At first I was hesitant, but I have come to realize THE EGGS ARE THE LIGHT! 🥚🥚🥚

Oh no...

Entulesse, Lithoniel!

Amar a nin Anar o Isil, Calad in vaiya.

 

[Lithóniel]

The Light is the Light! 'Tis of the Valar, and thou are not within it!

Let us be sundered e'ermore; mayhap such is better for thee! (Why, another reference to Námo...)

Oh no...

Entulesse, Lithoniel!

Amar a nin Anar o Isil, Calad in vaiya.

Hmm maybe I should consider my choice.

 

[Annatar]

And then again-again-again, what compelling reason do we have to believe that Tolkien would not have ultimately transformed Sador into a Drûg?

And so winds the path!

Anyway, I am pleased to note that we have thus successfully destroyed this thread. 😂

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

 

[arivista]

If I disregard the question of canonicity of RoP trailer description of Galadriel (or Waradriel, if you will - BTW, I never entirely liked Nerwen stuff, it seemed somewhat off to me), I would mention one issue I have with it, among others: how boring it is. At least to me.

It's not that trailer describes her as powerful, but what kind of power it focuses on - mainly physical, sword-wielding. In LOTR books, she is very powerful too, but it's different kind of power, not a brute force of a warrior. I would compare it more to Melian-like power. It is power of a will, ability to read hearts, that kind of stuff. There are not that many powerful characters in media with this kind of power. Certainly far fewer than characters of physical and warlike prowess.

It was immediately disappointing to see, how prominently they focus on Waradriel fighting-power. Maybe she will excercise that other type of power in RoP as well, but make no mistake, they primarily see Galadriel as Waradriel, otherwise this aspect of her character would not be featured so much in trailers. (For example, Gandalf or Elrond certainly had their fair share of sword fighting, but it they released some trailers focusing on these characters and showed them prominently as sword-warriors, I would find it equally concerning. Because this is not what these characters should be mainly about.)

To me, it just makes her seem more generic character. The fact that she is supposed to be driven by revenge only cements it. (First of all, it's dubious whether this could be considered canon. I know Galadriel loved Finrod the most - after all, who doesn't? - but that does not necessarily imply revenge wish.) But mainly - how many great fighters driven by revenge have we already seen in various movies? For me, far too many. Yes, they tend to be male, but simple gender swap does not make it any more interesting to me.

If a writer chooses this motivation, I consider it the most lazy and formulaic character writing. OK, I could understand it when they are adapting some source material, where this has already been well established about the character. But why would they do it when they don't have to? I can't wrap my head around it. It doesn't really add any depth to them any more, if anything, rather the opposite, IMHO.

And the worst part is that you already have a lot other stuff to work with character like Galadriel, even if you want to maintain "girl-power" aspect of her. You could for example explore, how was she influenced by Melian, undoubtedly very powerful female character, more than her husband Thingol, I would argue. You could explore Galadriel's ambition, desire to rule according to her own will, and how she learned from Melian how to excercise power even without resorting to physical fighting. That would be more unique take of a strong female character, I think, and it would feel less like a deviation from the canon. (OK, to be fair, they most likely don't have rights to mention Melian in RoP, but it only shows what a bad idea it is to adapt Tolkien when you only have rights to small bits and pieces of his lore.)

 

[Olorgando]

...
It was immediately disappointing to see, how prominently they focus on Waradriel fighting-power.
...
To me, it just makes her seem more generic character.
...
And the worst part is that you already have a lot other stuff to work with character like Galadriel, even if you want to maintain "girl-power" aspect of her.
...

Well that's Hollywood's extremely limited, not to say primitive imagination (they always claim "it's what the audience wants!" Replace "audience" with "influential dimwitted resident studio trolls" and you're probably closer the the "truth").

Think Xena starring Lucy Lawless (kind of a female Hercules or Conan);
think the Terminator franchise of films and the development that Linda Hamilton's character Sarah Conner took in the films she was in;
think the first four "Alien" films, and the development Sigourney Weaver's character Ellen Ripley took;
I'm sure there are other examples (I just haven't watched films much in the last 20 or so years).

"Girl power" in H'Wood seems to be seen as the gals reverting to Conan the Barbarian's kid sister (I mean the film troll, not the book Conan), so their "problem-solving" is what the early teen-age male with serious communication deficits imagines it to be (this is the version that the H'Wood trolls apparently think is their core audience - as with so much, having only a tenuous link to reality).

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

BTW, I never entirely liked Nerwen stuff, it seemed somewhat off to me

Fair enough, but at least it exists, and the citations on page 1:

Post in thread 'Galadriel in the Amazon Series' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/galadriel-in-the-amazon-series.30164/post-550287

provide far more precedent for "Waradriel" than exists for "XenaArwen".

 

[arivista]

Fair enough, but at least it exists, and the citations on page 1:

Post in thread 'Galadriel in the Amazon Series' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/galadriel-in-the-amazon-series.30164/post-550287

provide far more precedent for "Waradriel" than exists for "XenaArwen".

That's true. My criticism of released RoP material is not a silent vindication of LoTR. To quote movie Bilbo, it's not that I like XenArwen, I hate XenArwen as much as the next hobbit, but at least she was not main character and her "badass" scenes were relatively quickly over. One or two scenes with Waradriel would be bearable, but judging from the trailer, I suspect it will be much more...

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Fair enough, but at least it exists, and the citations on page 1:

Post in thread 'Galadriel in the Amazon Series' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/galadriel-in-the-amazon-series.30164/post-550287

provide far more precedent for "Waradriel" than exists for "XenaArwen".

I do leastways appreciate that Arwen in The Lord of the Rings is not clad in armour, fighting, but only riding through the forests, yet she has great power...

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

True, but she wasn't there to be fighting, as she replaced Glorfindel in the role of seeking for the Bearer.

See TheManinTheMoon's citations for Warrior-Galadriel; with all that fighting, it would be as natural for her to wear armor, as for any male Noldo. After all, the wearing of armor was common in Gondor, and though their metalworking, like so many things, had no doubt degenerated over the centuries, it came down from the Numenoreans, who I suspect learned much from the Eldar.

I therefore believe Elves in armor a justifiable decision. -- even if it's jarring to LOTR-only readers. Or, needless to say, movie-only fans.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

That is true. Good points.

I don't agree that the replacement of Glorfindel was right, at all.

 

[Elthir]

See TheManinTheMoon's citations for Warrior-Galadriel; with all that fighting, it would be as natural for her to wear armor, as for any male Noldo.

Not that you said otherwise my good egg, but for the thread I'll note that in these citations there are multiple quotes about Galadriel concerning the defense of Swanhaven.

And others that allow for the possibility that Galadriel could fight (not that she necessarily did fight), or that she was simply present when a certain battle took place. That's not a full look at the whole set of these quotes obviously, but for example, Galadriel is not mentioned regarding the Battle of Lammoth, granting that we have very little concerning it, in any case.


Anyway, what's the Tolkienian evidence -- or not -- for plate armor "all over" the body?

I'm not arguing, but wondering, as I barely remember old discussions on plate armor versus chain mail (or fish scale mail), even with respect to the Third Age Gondorians -- but any of those chats were so long ago now in any case, and there's so much new text now that maybe it's a different argument today?

Or I've simply forgotten something!

Of these discussions I can only recall (at the moment) that Imrahil held his "bright-burnished vambrace" to Eowyn's lips, and it revealed a little mist.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Correct, Elthir -- and I believe that's the only plate ever mentioned, which is why it's so often quoted. There's certainly nothing like what's on display in the movies.

Plate is my own "head-canon", if you will. You might more properly consider it "wishful thinking", and I couldn't object; it's based on nothing more than the oft-alluded devolution of the Numenoreans in Middle-earth into "men of the twilight".

And hey -- Feanor came up with lots of stuff; given his temperament, would plate armor be out of the question?

Edit: And if so, it might be the answer to his emblem appearing on hers, to the wailing and guffawing in the many youtube videos so generously provided by some here: She "liberated" it, after pulling a Buffy on one of his warriors. 😉

 

[Elthir]

Ah okay. Thanks SES. I think I even recall the argument that Imrahil's vambrace "could" be bright burnished leather -- but I wouldn't know if that's even possible, as I'm no expert in armor, breath, leather, burnishing, mist appearing on stuff, . . .

To blather on (the thread in general):

Concerning the Nissi (Elven women): in LACE it's noted that the care of the body and healing are
most practiced by Elven-women -- and it was deemed that abstaining from hunting and war helped
the Elven women in this regard, and: "it was the Elven-men who bore arms at need"

And of course the text adds that in: "dire straights or desperate defence, the Nissi fought valiantly."

Another something to note perhaps [and whether or not the following represents Tolkien's "last" known version of the Kinslaying is beside this following point]: in LQS1 it is said that Fingon and Turgon had no part in the Kinslaying. Fingon and Turgon are able to fight of course. And when the Kinslaying began, (QS tradition) the vanguard of the Noldor were succored by the foremost of the people of Fingolfin.

But Fingon and Turgon had no part. Why?

Because Tolkien

I'm aware that Argon (Shibboleth of Feanor) "perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks" -- and that the Orks caught the host at unawares, and that while the ranks of the Eldar were giving way, Argon sprang forward, hewed a path, daunting Orks with his stature and the light of his eyes. And he felled "the" Ork-captain. And though he himself was slain, the Orks were dismayed, and the Noldor pursued them with slaughter.

And Galadriel is not mentioned. And she is where . . . when what happened?

Well, nothing I've said here proves Galadriel did not fight at Lammoth, or Battle of Beleriand X or Y,
nor am I even trying to argue that she didn't. And I don't doubt her potential awesomeness on any battlefield . . . just as I do not doubt Fingon's potential awesomeness at Swanhaven! I'm just thinking of that word "necessarily".

 

[Elthir]

And just for clarity (for anyone) that last post of mine has nothing to do with ROP, despite that I know what thread I'm in . . . this time.

It's not an argument for or against what ROP is doing or might do. It's me posting about Tolkien, before another nap.

 

[arivista]

As for the plate armour - it is said that Dwarves in Belegost invented chainmail armour that had no match:

Their smithcraft indeed the Sindar soon learned of them; yet in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail of linked rings, which was first contrived by the smiths of Belegost, their work had no rival.

But as I understand it, plate armour is generally better than chainmail armour. (Chainmail has cost advantage though.) So it rather seems they didn't have plates in Middle-earth.

But you may argue it applies only to the First Age, and plates may have been invented afterwards. Sure, although I think Tolkien rarely described later ages as times of great progress and development. Things made in the past, in the former Golden Age, so to say, were generally described as better and more advanced. After all, swords forged millennia ago are generally better then more contemporary ones. Even Glóin admits to Frodo they have we surpassed the old days only in mining and building, not in metal-work.