Second-guessing and Misunderstanding Tolkien

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

And you say you hate Reddit ? 🤔

 

[Radaghast]

And you say you hate Reddit ? 🤔

Yes, because I get a clique-y and toxic vibe at Reddit. Not a very pleasant place, imho. The worst thing about Quora is the dumb questions but those annoy more than they offend, and oftentimes they're good for a laugh. Also, you can more easily attach media to posts in Quora.

 

[Radaghast]

If Sauron was in possession of the One Ring and he was offered another fictional artifact, like the Infinity Gauntlet or the Dragon Balls, would he trade in the ring?

 

[Vorondil]

If Sauron was in possession of the One Ring and he was offered another fictional artifact, like the Infinity Gauntlet or the Dragon Balls, would he trade in the ring?

Aaargh!

 

[Ent]

 

[Radaghast]

How could Elwing have crowned Eärendil with the Silmaril if she was a bird?

Where could this person be getting this? Never mind that Elwing changed back to a human but I don't see where it says that it is she who puts the gem on Eärendil:

…Ulmo bore up Elwing out of the waves, and he gave her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek Eärendil her beloved. On a time of night Eärendil at the helm of his ship saw her come towards him, as a white cloud exceeding swift beneath the moon, as a star over the sea moving in strange course, a pale flame on wings of storm. And it is sung that she fell from the air upon the timbers of Vingilot, in a swoon, nigh unto death for the urgency of her speed, and Eärendil took her to his bosom; but in the morning with marvelling eyes he beheld his wife in her own form beside him with her hair upon his face, and she slept.
…
Yet Eärendil saw now no hope left in the lands of Middle-earth, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most often at the prow of Vingilot, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow; and ever its light grew greater as they drew into the West.

• The Silmarillion, “Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath”

To give the benefit of the doubt, perhaps it says this in another book? The Fall of Gondolin (which I don't have at hand atm) maybe?

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Another odd question: "In Glorfindel prophecy, is 'mortal man' male or a person, or is it open to interpretation?"

Why do people have this need to complicate things? It's not like Glorfindel's words can be tested.

It's described I had this little thing called foresight.

"Would it not have been more reasonable to give the Ring to someone who could control it, but not too strong so that the Ring could be taken from them?"

Interestingly, in Letter 246 of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, he writes that Círdan would have been able to wield the One Ring and supplant Sauron if he willed it.

 

[Radaghast]

Interestingly, in Letter 246 of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, he writes that Círdan would have been able to wield the One Ring and supplant Sauron if he willed it.

Not quite sure where you're getting that from. Could you supply a quote?

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Interestingly, in Letter 246 of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, he writes that Círdan would have been able to wield the One Ring and supplant Sauron if he willed it.

Are you referring to this:
"...it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond."

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Not quite sure where you're getting that from. Could you supply a quote?

I don't have the book with me; it was something that stuck out the first time I learned about it.

Are you referring to this:
"...it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond."

That is the right section! I thought Círdan was explicitly stated though.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

That is the right section! I thought Círdan was explicitly stated though.

Not directly. As Tolkien had already dealt with Gandalf (being of the same order as Sauron), I take the reference to 'other guardians' to be those mighty enough among the Eldar to be suitable guardians of the Three.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Not directly. As Tolkien had already dealt with Gandalf (being of the same order as Sauron), I take the reference to 'other guardians' to be those mighty enough among the Eldar to be suitable guardians of the Three.

Intriguing. I was certain I recalled something specific about Círdan that concerned the Ring directly in that regard. Beside him being described as "seeing farther and deeper than any other in Middle-Earth", it would be logical as well for him to know greater than any other what Sauron's craft would do.

 

[Radaghast]

We now turn to the 'Stupid Answer' portion of our show...

How powerful were the Nazgul? Aragorn seemed to take all of them on at once and yet in return of the king, the nazgul leader was made out to be very powerful.

Nazgul were incredibly powerful and dangerous creatures.

They were said to be the most feared beings in all of Middle-earth, second only to Sauron himself.

Aragorn was able to take on all nine of them at once, and even managed to kill their leader.

This shows just how powerful Aragorn truly was.

And this answer got 59 upvotes!

 

[Deimos]

We now turn to the 'Stupid Answer' portion of our show...

How powerful were the Nazgul? Aragorn seemed to take all of them on at once and yet in return of the king, the nazgul leader was made out to be very powerful.

And this answer got 59 upvotes!

But neither Aragorn nor the Nazgul were as powerful as the half dozen Ninja bears wielding plasma cannons, who could have invaded Mordor and successfully stormed Barad-dur

 

[Radaghast]

But neither Aragorn nor the Nazgul were as powerful as the half dozen Ninja bears wielding plasma cannons, who could have invaded Mordor and successfully stormed Barad-dur

 

[Olorgando]

We now turn to the 'Stupid Answer' portion of our show...

How powerful were the Nazgul? Aragorn seemed to take all of them on at once and yet in return of the king, the nazgul leader was made out to be very powerful.

Aragorn was able to take on all nine of them at once, and even managed to kill their leader.

And this answer got 59 upvotes!

OK, solution poster is unable to count to nine ...

 

[ZehnWaters]

This is not another "Why didn't they use the Eagles" thread though that topic is briefly discussed here. This is more a thread examining the seemingly constant stream of "Why didn't..." questions on sites like Reddit and Quora. The Eagle-related ones. Ones that ask why the Valar don't intercede. Etc.

Questions about the Eagles and the Valar might be excusable (if not valid) if the askers don't look into the logistics of the story or the background of the writing of the book or, of course, the need to create an engaging story (and, truthfully, how many works of fiction are flawless and without contrivance?). Almost needless to say, Tolkien did not set out to write a sequel to The Hobbit of his own volition, but acquiescing to publisher and public request, he came up with The Lord of the Rings. In doing so, in choosing Bilbo's ring as the genesis of the idea that he would develop, he was perhaps operating under certain constraints. So, whatever flaws one might perceive in the work, I think one must consider the circumstances under which it was composed. If Tolkien had conceived of the idea of the Rings of Power from the start on his own (meaning without the demand for a follow-up to TH) we probably would have had something very different, and one possibly even better than what we were given. And what we got is fairly magnificent, especially considering the circumstances.

But there are some questions that go beyond the pale and look at other reasons why they think the course Tolkien took was the wrong one. One such question asks (to paraphrase), "Would it not have been more reasonable to give the Ring to someone who could control it, but not too strong so that the Ring could be taken from them?" 😕 To my answer in which I basically said, no, it would not be more reasonable, the person replied that the plan in the book is "stupid"; that Sauron should logically have figured out that, since the Ring was not being used against him, that he would have figured out that the plan was to destroy it. 🤨

Honestly, I couldn't be bothered to explain that the answer to this is in the book and that it takes more than a cursory reading to find it. If you don't accept the explanation, I guess take it or leave it and find something else to read, but I didn't even feel like saying that.

How would/do others here respond to such questions, if at all?

TBH the only sticky question for me is why the Valar decided that Men, Dwarves, and the Sindar/Nandor all needed to be punished along with the Noldor during the 1st Age. I could even accept the Sindar/Nandor since they CHOSE to stay in Middle-Earth (though not with Melkor there) but what on earth did the Men and Dwarves do to deserve to get punished? If someone can explain that one to me I'd be happy. The only thing I can think of is the Valar were just wrong in their decision.

From my perspective the Valar were just being lazy stewards. THEY let Melkor loose to tempt the Noldor. THEY let Melkor get away back into Middle-Earth. And THEY let him stay in power because they were mad at the Noldor. But we never see THEM make apologies for their gross errors in judgment (understandable though they may be).

 

[ZehnWaters]

If Sauron was in possession of the One Ring and he was offered another fictional artifact, like the Infinity Gauntlet or the Dragon Balls, would he trade in the ring?

He'd be smart too. Both could restore any power lost by giving up the Ring as both are capable of granting the user whatever they want. The Triforce falls into this category.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Are you referring to this:
"...it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond."

I'm not sure why he talks up Elrond so dang much when what he's shown us of Galadriel shows her to be far more powerful. Gandalf is a freaking MAIAR. If they meant before Gandalf, Círdan was practically a first generation Elf. The man was ANCIENT. How is Elrond any greater than them?

 

[Radaghast]

I'm not sure why he talks up Elrond so dang much when what he's shown us of Galadriel shows her to be far more powerful. Gandalf is a freaking MAIAR. If they meant before Gandalf, Círdan was practically a first generation Elf. The man was ANCIENT. How is Elrond any greater than them?

Tolkien actually says Gandalf is the only one who would have a chance to successfully use the Ring vs. Sauron.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

• The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #246