Second-guessing and Misunderstanding Tolkien

[ZehnWaters]

Tolkien actually says Gandalf is the only one who had a chance to successfully use the Ring vs. Sauron.

• The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #246

My understanding was that Gandalf was the only one who could seize control of the Ring, on a fundamental level, from Sauron. i.e. force it's allegiance to change. Galadriel and Elrond could USE it and theoretically keep it from Sauron by generating a powerful enough kingdom to quash Sauron's forces but not seize ownership of the Ring and thus destroy Sauron's connection to it.

I think Tolkien described it as Gandalf being able to wrench it away from Sauron and destroy the Ring's connection to Sauron as thoroughly as if it'd been thrown into the fire. Sauron would lose all of his power, but the things he'd created with the Ring would endure. The Elves (and obviously those of lesser might) could not achieve such a task but could, in theory, destroy Sauron's body a third time which would achieve a similar goal but Sauron would always be able to respawn and his powers wouldn't be broken.

 

[Radaghast]

No, Gandalf could not change the "allegiance" of the Ring. He would be corrupted as well. Indeed, Tolkien espoused the idea that he would be a worse Dark Lord than Sauron. From the same letter (#246):

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained ‘righteous’, but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for ‘good’, and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

I don't rightly understand how this would make him worse than Sauron but I do get that he would be fairly terrible. In D&D terms, his alignment would be '(l)Awful Good'.

 

[ZehnWaters]

No, Gandalf could not change the "allegiance" of the Ring. He would be corrupted as well. Indeed, Tolkien espoused the idea that he would be a worse Dark Lord than Sauron. From the same letter (#246):

I don't rightly understand how this would make him worse than Sauron but I do get that he would be fairly terrible. In D&D terms, his alignment would be '(l)Awful Good'.

Because he would make "good" seem "evil".

My understanding of Tolkien's phrasing was that Gandalf could have wrenched control of the Ring from Sauron. In that manner he changes the Ring's allegiance, just not it's "alignment". He couldn't make the Ring "good".

 

[Tar-Elenion]

I'm not sure why he talks up Elrond so dang much when what he's shown us of Galadriel shows her to be far more powerful. Gandalf is a freaking MAIAR. If they meant before Gandalf, Círdan was practically a first generation Elf. The man was ANCIENT. How is Elrond any greater than them?

As noted, Gandalf is dealt with separately. I take the "especially" as a reference to Elrond's Maiarin heritage.

 

[ZehnWaters]

As noted, Gandalf is dealt with separately. I take the "especially" as a reference to Elrond's Maiarin heritage.

Which would be fair, but we don't see it having any kind of significant effect on his power levels.

 

[Radaghast]

How could Elwing have crowned Eärendil with the Silmaril if she was a bird?

Where could this person be getting this? Never mind that Elwing changed back to a human but I don't see where it says that it is she who puts the gem on Eärendil:

• The Silmarillion, “Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath”

To give the benefit of the doubt, perhaps it says this in another book? The Fall of Gondolin (which I don't have at hand atm) maybe?

Someone on Quora replied that Bilbo's poem mentions Elwing putting the Silmaril on Eärendil but it doesn't say that she is a bird, though it does say that she comes "flying" to him:

There flying Elwing came to him,

and flame was in the darkness lit;

more bright than light of diamond

the fire upon her carcanet.
The Silmaril she bound on him

and crowned him with the living light

• "Many Meetings"

 

[Deimos]

Someone on Quora replied that Bilbo's poem mentions Elwing putting the Silmaril on Eärendil but it doesn't say that she is a bird, though it does say that she comes "flying" to him:

• "Many Meetings"

A fair number of people, I would say the majority of people, don't understand most poetry (and therefore don't like it) because they read it literally.
They do not know how to recognize (never mind use) literary devices such as analogy, hyperbole, onomatopoeia, metaphor, satire, parody etc.
In this case, the phrase "flying to him" was taken literally... Elwing actually flying through the air. And since it is mostly birds that fly, the reader understood it to say Elwing took the form of a bird. At least that is the way I read the original "Bonkers" question.
It's kind of sad.... a lot of lovely imagery is lost to those folks.

 

[Radaghast]

To be fair, Elwing was a bird, but she transformed back before the crowning ceremony. It's also possible Bilbo is exercising creative license since The Silmarillion doesn't specify who puts the gem on Eärendil.

 

[Deimos]

To be fair, Elwing was a bird, but she transformed back before the crowning ceremony. It's also possible Bilbo is exercising creative license since The Silmarillion doesn't specify who puts the gem on Eärendil.

So Elwing' s name meant "winged elf"? (seriously...is not "el" associated with the Eldar?)

 

[Radaghast]

Elwing means 'star-spray' in Sindarin, el meaning 'star' and wing meaning 'spray' or 'foam'.

 

[Elthir]

So Elwing' s name meant "winged elf"? (seriously...is not "el" associated with the Eldar?)

Tolkien once wrote (Letters) "Difficult to distinguish "star" and "elf", since they are derivatives of the same basic element EL "star". . . "

Interestingly, in this letter at least (letter 211, 1958), Tolkien writes "Elwing (Elf-foam)", although I'd go with Radaghast's response above. One could say much more about EL, words that hail from it, and Tolkien even offering up internal reasons for "variant" Elf/Star translations of Elendil, for instance.

And then there's the name Elessar . . . but I'll shaddup (for now) 🐾

 

[Radaghast]

What if Morgoth had been only slightly evil? How would that have affected the history of the Elves?

What constitutes slight evil? Tying someone's shoelaces together? 🤔

 

[Olorgando]

Whatever Morgoth may have known, having been given a part of the abilities of all of his Ainur brethren, the term "slight" definitely did not exist in his dictionary - as written by JRRT. For a "slightly evil Morgoth" you need to read stuff by a different fantasy author, doofus! 😖

 

[Deimos]

Morgoth being "slightly evil" is analogous to a person described as "slightly murderous".
Not someone you want to sit next to at a dinner party.

btw, I read this somewhere about degrees of corruption,... kind of sobering:
If you have a barrel of sewage into which you pour a bottle of expensive wine, you have..... a barrel of sewage.
If you have a barrel of expensive wine and you pour a teaspoon of sewage into it, you have..... a barrel of sewage.

 

[Radaghast]

 

[Deimos]

View attachment 24961

I love the Miracle Max scene.
That whole movie came together perfectly; can never be improved upon, no successful remake is possible.
It was a "lightning in a bottle" achievement.

 

[ZehnWaters]

View attachment 24961

lol exactly what I was just thinking.

 

[Radaghast]

If elves are the pinnacle of beauty in Middle Earth, how come none of them are thicc?

This question represents the pinnacle of thicc-headedness.

 

[Barliman]

Someone on Quora replied that Bilbo's poem mentions Elwing putting the Silmaril on Eärendil but it doesn't say that she is a bird, though it does say that she comes "flying" to him:

• "Many Meetings"

No no no!
Don't you remember? Gandalf shouted for the rest of the company to turn into birds at the Bridge of Khazad-dûm.

 

[Vorondil]

If elves are the pinnacle of beauty in Middle Earth, how come none of them are thicc?

This question represents the pinnacle of thicc-headedness.

Will it never end?