So why did 🧙Gandalf take the Fellowship thru Moria???

[Bill the Pony]

Summary of Aldanil's post: Was it logic for Gandalf to light his pipe?

I guess that comes down to the distance the smoke of a pipe is detectable vs. the distance Glamdring detects orcs. If Glamdring can detect orcs further away than their noses can detect smoke, it's ok. (assuming Glamdring was not glowing the moment Gandalf lights up)

The best indication I could find about how far Sting could detect Orcs is given by Aragorn:

To his dismay the edges gleamed dimly in the night. `Orcs! ' he said. `Not very near, and yet too near, it seems.'
`I feared as much,' said Aragorn. `But maybe they are not on this side of the River. The light of Sting is faint, and it may point to no more than spies of Mordor roaming on the slopes of Amon Lhaw

At this point the company is at Amon Hen, and Aragorn thinks Sting would detect orcs at Amon Lhaw, which is at the other side of the river with Tol Brandir in between.
My humble horse nose can detect weed of any kind at most a few hundred meters away. The distance between Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw seems to be at least that as well. (one arm of river, mountain, another arm of river). Taking into account that Moria was well-ventilated it seems the distance Glamdring detects orcs is further than my nose would detect smoke. So if orc-noses are similar to horse-noses, it seems reasonable for Gandalf to take a little comfort from his pipe.
So now the question boils down to how good are orc noses compared to horse-noses. That I don't know and will leave to more learned people on this board.

 

[Harad]

What BtP describes is a static situation. Sting is able to find Orcs if they move into its radius of detection. Pipe smoke will expand to fill an area. Further Orcs are moving, so they may move from an area that they can't detect the smoke to an area that they can. Snagas are trackers--one would expect them to be expert in snuffling detection, although making that quantitative is difficult.

In any case, one wonders how fine Gandalf can make the calculation in confidence that it is safe.

 

[Bill the Pony]

Ah, so then Gandalf was double smart. He figured if there were orcs, by the time they detected the smoke and tracked down where it came from, the company would be long gone, leaving the orcs confused and looking in the wrong direction. Smart guy...

 

[Harad]

That's a problem with Moria...All you have to do is guard the door out. No need to track anybody down.

 

[Minas]

Shoot the GAP

Harad

You've done some sterling investigative work. What's your Anthrax sniffing talents like Billy because the FBI would like to talk about employment.
Never seem to get the time to analyse the books as deeply as I would like after I've read your posts Harad but cant find any fault in your logic so I've got to say that the GAP was a safer initial route than Moria. Although it all panned out in the end the Fellowship paid a high price for following that road.
However if you were looking for some R+R and some fancy green garb then Moria leads nicely to Lorien. If you hope to sway the horsemen and fire up Denethor for the defence you go gap-Rohan-MINAS t- Mt Doom and not only pick up more air miles on the way to enhance the story but you're also playing the percentages.

 

[Harad]

Hey Minas,
Where you been during the War? Are you pulling a "Glorfindel" and sitting it out in the comfort of Rivendell? But thanks for finally sending the cavalry.

 

[Bill the Pony]

Do orcs smoke? Men, hobbits, wizards and dwarves do. Why not orcs? If so, no problem for Gandalf to light up.

 

[Snaga]

Sure. They smoke hobbits.

 

[Harad]

Somehow I can't imagine Grishnakh toking on some Old Toby. Nor eating pate, nor sipping wine. Maybe a cheroot or a ceegar. Gandalf's refined blend of Shire weed, would get the nostrils of Snaga's throughout Moria a-quivering.

 

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Harad
Somehow I can't imagine Grishnakh toking on some Old Toby

Lack of imagination or proof?

 

[Snaga]

I think we need to consider Sting's range more closely than Aragorns supposition that Sting was detecting orcs on the East Bank. Aragorn may well have been wrong: Ugluk and his ill-led, ill-fated crew were wandering around nearby I recall. Its not clear how far, but could be just a couple of miles I think.

Anyone volunteers to post in detail on this? There's got to be a stack of examples...

On orc-snozzles...

The range of an orc nose may well vary. From the tracker mentioned in Mordor, you get the impression that he was a specialist, possibly with a genetically engineered nose. However, the Moria orcs will be well-used to a lack of light and would therefore have other senses that are more well-developed. There is little to suggest that orcs smoke, but given dwarves are keen on it they would be familiar with the smell from Balin and co. As an unusual smell for Moria, it would be readily detectable. Had the air within Moria been wholly still, diffusion would be limited. But the cunning dwarven ventilation amplifies the dangerous nature of Gandalf's fix. Although the smell would remain strong at the scene of his misdeed for some days, traces of it would rapidly travel some distance. Perhaps Gandalf's harsh reaction to Pippin is really an expression of the guilt he is himself feeling, for his own reckless behaviour?

I wanted to blame Gandalf's act for putting Gollum onto their trail. Unfortunately Gollum is already following them at that point, so it doesn't work.

 

[Harad]

Gollum was buddies with the Watcher in the Water, who put him on the trail. Gollum typically buddied up with the biggest and baddest dude or dudette around.

 

[Aldanil]

As Dr. Victor Frankenstein Once Said

"My God, I think I've created a monster!"

I suppose that the lesson to be learned here is, A Little Sarcasm Is A Dangerous Thing; if the (Inter)net result of all this proves to be the spinning out of another long and entirely speculative skein about the range and relative accuracy of orc-snozzles (to say nothing of the subtly delicate tastes of Grishnakh, the most dubious gourmet), I fear that I may well fall at last into despair (which is admittedly not quite so dismal and deep as the abyss of Khazad-dum, perhaps, but still makes for a right nasty bump at the bottom!)

 

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

Actually, it's rather surprising that Gandalf's rash and selfish act didn't result in the company being rushed by a crew of Orcs dressed in slickers and helmets, wielding heavy canvas hoses and fire axes.

Or at least a drenching from the Sprinkler System of Durin.

 

[Bill the Pony]

monsters?

Owww Aldanil, you should allow a poor little horse who is not smart enough to contribute to the serious threads like U vs. U-H, have his fun!

 

[Snaga]

Can I just say that Grishnakh had a much better sense of smell than that snotty-nosed Ugluk, who couldn't smell a chicken madras if it was tipped over his head.

 

[Aldanil]

Having vented my feeble spleen on this thread quite often enough already, let me just say that I am very nearly as fond of Bill the pack-pony as was Samwise himself; not least for his hilarious Steven Wright signature!

 

[Bill the Pony]

Well thank you. Here's another SW fit for this thread:

A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Bill the Pony
Well thank you. Here's another SW fit for this thread:

That is a good sig!!

 

[Miss Rainbow]

Why Gandalf took the Fellowship thru Moria

Well, You know that Saruman created an avalanch of heavey snow, and Borimir told Gandalf that it would be the death of the Hobbits, and maybe everyone else, so Gandalf said, "Let the ring-bearer decide." Frodo said, "We shall go thru the mines." Gandalf said, "So be it." I believe he was just plain tired or he wanted to keep his promise to Frodo, and maybe Gandalf felt he had no other choice but to go thru the mines. I hope this helps.