So why did 🧙Gandalf take the Fellowship thru Moria???

[MarkJ]

Well cheers for replying. I thought you might admit defeat over the distance to safety point but still, I will give up ( at least for tonight). I am still highly sceptical and i should point out the burden of proof is on you. In most well written books we assume the actions of characters are logical, so its up to you to show Moria as implausible.
Night.
PS What has the number of orcs in Moria got to do with the number at Isengard. Sauron and Saruman's motives are not the same in these locations, Moria is very far from Mordor, and Saruman is breeding Uruk hai - surely a different process.
The references to detection were about the wolves ( where obviously they were detected.)(And the "hound of Sauron" distinction wont wash - it is almost certainly generic) Also there are the crebain which, you are quite right, i should have specified as merely a close call the first time, though after the mountain attempt they may have been seen due to their desperate need to get down.
Also, NB. Do not confuse what the reader knows with what Gandalf knew at the time of the decision e.g. Haldir's tale of orcs, the loyalty of Rohan ( very importantly ) and thus Saruman's plans for war. For all Gandalf knew Saruman had all his forces + the men of Rohan to gaurd the gap.
PPS If you admit you are wrong everyone will like you and stop calling you stubborn

 

[Aldanil]

As my own most recent new thread has been met with a deafening silence, I'll venture another attempt at this old one, although I'd persuaded myself to refrain from any further pokes at the tar-baby. Better wisdom notwithstanding, here we go again...

If you are willing to concede, Harad, and I'll admit the chance does seem wildly unlikely, that the Fellowship's journey through Moria is justified if and only if Gandalf is intent upon reaching Lorien, will the wizard's words to the Company before even attempting the ascent of Caradhras set your skeptical mind at rest, and let this long-twisted thread at last come to an end? "We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River," he tells them, while the peaks of Barazinbar, Zirak-zigil, and Bundu-shathur are still several days in the distance. Could it be any clearer? Is there more that you're looking for? Gandalf is determined by whatever means, over the Redhorn Pass and down the Dimrill Stair or through the darkling mansions of Khazad-dum, to bring the Fellowship to the "secret woods" of Lothlorien. Can we all go home now?

 

[Harad]

Aldanil,

You still have greatness in you, but you must have missed the myriad times I said:

HOWEVER, if Gandalf considered it a NECESSITY to go to Lorien, then Caradhras or Moria were the only ways to go considering that they went south from Rivendell.

Is that ambiguous? I am stuttering when I type that?

As far as MarkJ arguments, they leave me limp:

PS What has the number of orcs in Moria got to do with the number at Isengard. Sauron and Saruman's
motives are not the same in these locations, Moria is very far from Mordor, and Saruman is breeding Uruk hai - surely a different process.

Sauron's and Saruman's motive are precisely the same: to get the Ring...but Sauron had a ~thousand year head start. Moria is very far from Mordor but 600 years is very much larger than the 30 years, or so, that the Saruman Orc Cloning Labs were in business. Breeding is breeding and I dont see any evidence that Saruman drastically reduced the Uruk-hai gestation period v. the Great Uruks of Sauron.

The wolves detected them and then what? The wolves did not follow them to Moria. Why not? Because the wolves lost them. There is no evidence that going to the Gap would have made the wolves find them. If the wolves came from the south, that might be the most unexpected direction for the Fellowship to go. In any case we know that Saruman did not act on that intelligence even if he received it. The Battle of the Ford of Isen was 2 months later.

Do not confuse what the reader knows with what Gandalf knew at the time of the decision e.g. Haldir's tale of orcs, the loyalty of Rohan

No need to worry there. I am merely pointing out that Gandalf came to the opposite conclusions WITHOUT justification. Why because JRRT wanted the story to go in that direction.

PPS If you admit you are wrong everyone will like you and stop calling you stubborn

Why dont you admit youre wrong and prove something even more important. My joining a big crowd is hardly a noteworthy event. You being the first to "think outside the Mine," would be forum-shaking. Besides there are lots of people that still wont like me. Sniff..

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by Harad
Sauron had a huge headstart on Saruman. The later had his Silver Medal winning Uruk-hai, but how many?
Aragorn was the preeminent tracker/scout in ME. Legolas was no slouch (ok he was a slouch...no matter). JRRT could shirley have written a good story of those two guys leading the Fellowship thru the Gap if he wanted to.

Ah, clearly trying to incite me back on to this thread. Well, like MarkJ I tend to argue that the Gap wasn't necessarily closed, but Gandalf seemed to think so. JRRT has clearly 'stacked the book' against the Gap, making Gandalf's decision at least (somewhat) logical. First, there is the crebain. The Fellowship believes that they eluded the birds, but they don't really know. In the Two Towers Aragorn speculates that the Uruk-hai knew where to find the Fellowship because they were spotted by the crebain- 'Remember the birds'. Gandalf is also upset that he has used his pyrotechnics to save the Fellowship on the pass and to ward off the Wargs. He says something to the effect that he has written 'Gandalf is here' in letters that could be read from Rivendell to Isengard. Shirley after giving himself away like this, he now thinks that Saruman knows where he is. As for the Wargs- I'd say they were Sauron's. Saruman has Wolf-Riders, but I think that those are the type of Wolf that doesn't disentigrate after death. Sauron's Wargs have a bit of the unnatural in them, so I think that they would have reported to Sauron and not Saruman (for future postings on S&S military intelligence). So at this point Gandalf has two reasons to believe that Saruman will be aware of him approaching the Gap- the crebain and the gratuitous use of fire. Next, Gandalf the Grey seems to be suspicious of Rohan. Remember, it is Gandalf at the council who brings up the rumor that the Rohirrim are selling horses to Sauron. When Gandalf was last in the area, Theoden (actually Grima) sent Gandalf out as a beggar. Gandalf had also informed Theoden of Saruman's Orcs during that visit, and Theoden had made no outward sign that he was going to act against Saruman. The friendliness of Rohan could not be 100% trusted from what Gandalf knew at the time. As far as Gandalf knew, Saruman was uncontested in the West, and could deploy whatever troops he wanted with out worry of opposition. Which brings us (as always) to the closing of the Gap. The 40+ miles of the Gap needn't be that well patrolled to close it. The fords were a relatively small area. North of the Fords the Isen was uncrossable- it was in a narrow Gorge, probably too wide to jump, yet too narrow to go down and come back up (remember Turin's companion dying in a similar maneouver trying to get under Glaurong?). North of that was Isengard proper, no place to take the Fellowship. Southwards is a small stretch to Helm's Deep- I don't know how easy it would have been to cross the Isen south of the fords.
Anyway, my point is that it wouldn't have been any picnic for the Fellowship to cross the Isen anywhere but the Fords. Saruman could easily have held the fords with a couple hundred Uruk-hai, and for all Gandalf knew the Rohirrim wouln't have hindered Saruman in this. Gandalf knew that Saruman was looking for him, and that maybe the crebain did spy him. Therefore, the Gap was more of a known bad decision, while Moria was a bit more of an unknown bad decision. For all Gandalf knew, he was expected to either go over the pass or to the south. He had no information on Haldir's report that Orcs were heading up to Moria. So perhaps Gandalf thought that Moria was an unexpected route, so it would be unguarded. He also held the faintest of hopes that Balin was still alive there- he said so. Moria also got the Fellowship out of the way of prying eyes like the birds, while the journey to the Gap would have left every possibility of being seen from the air (if the hadn't been marked already). Gandalf did not know if he could count on any aid by going to Edoras, while he knew that Lorien would be a temporary safe have (Yeah Elven Rings). I think that the Gap route was mixed with bad and unknown options, while the Moria route was a mix of unknown and slightly good (Lorien being the good)options.

 

[Harad]

of Wolf that doesn't disentigrate after death. Sauron's Wargs have a bit of the unnatural in them, so I think that they would have reported to Sauron and not Saruman

Another thing that JRRT downplays is that Moria IS Sauron's domain and has been for hundreds of years. To allow the possibility that Balin is alive after 25 years of silence, and to instead believe that Rohan has become traitorous (never happened) is stacking the book illogically. But that is the basis on which the decision is made.

Again and again, if Lorien is the key, then its Moria or bust.

If they are spied by birds or wolves then the next decision they make--either Moria or the Gap--is EQUALLY compromised.

The Ford of Isen is the only place to cross the Isen in force. Shirley, Aragorn the best tracker/frontiersman in ME could have negotiated the Isen with a party of 9. Suddenly this very capable Fellowship are unable to do relatively simple outdoors activities. Not only did JRRT stack the Book but all you "Mine-ers" are stacking the books as well.

The Moria route was a constricted combination of bad, real bad, and wishful thinking (as of 25 years ago). The Gap was a combination of maybe good (as per 2 months ago), neutral, or unknown bad.

 

[Aldanil]

yet another poke at the tar-baby

Do you even listen to yourself anymore, Harad?

"Again and again, if Lorien is the key, then it's Moria or bust."
(Pray pardon my profreader's presumption in inserting the apostrophe.)

If you really mean what you say, and you have indeed said it again and "again and again", what will it at last require for you to be satisfied?

Gandalf's words in "The Ring Goes South" which I cited in my previous post speak directly and unequivocally to the point that you insist upon repeating. Their leader, as he tells them when the Misty Mountains are still several days distant, explicitly and unmistakably intends to take the Fellowship through "the secret woods, and on to the Great River"; what further persuasion on the matter is needed finally to appease you? The wizard was most assuredly not stuttering when he spoke, nor is his counsel in the least ambiguous. Or are you suggesting that someplace other than Lothlorien is meant by "the secret woods"?

Although Aragorn expresses profound misgivings, and Boromir speaks up strongly for the Gap of Rohan (seems oddly familiar -- the argument of one from the South whose willful pride and overweening confidence in his own rightness ultimately leads him most ruinously astray!), at the moment of crisis the entire Company follows Gandalf the Grey not only into but through the Mines of Moria; even insignificant Gollum decides to come along for the journey. O Harad, dear obdurate obstinate Harad, won't you join them?

 

[Harad]

Aldanil, revered newcomer to the English language,

I agree wholeheartedly with your quote. I think the "secret woods" refers to Lorien. My repeated sentences that "if Lorien, then Moria" should satisfy even so strict a constructionist as yourself.

The logical train of thought which I am sure also exists in whatever language you call your own, is that aside from THAT imperative which the Gap could never fulfill, the arguments given by the characters in the book are specious and ingenuous, not to mention capricious, mendacious, inane, and silly. If they left it at: "We must go to Lorien." Then fine. But the lily is gilded (Why?) with other reasons that do not hold orc-draught.

 

[lilhobo]

there are three elven strongholds in ME, grey haven, rivendell, and lothlorien.....was there any doubt that they would go thru Lorien??? i think not. i believe they would have gone via the Argonaths....especially cos it makes a better story

 

[Aldanil]

"logical...in whatever language" OR Who Are You Calling A Newcomer, Pally?

I hestitate, Harad, to respond too snidely in kind, but not for much longer than a moment or two; and anyway, if it gets too heated, what are we paying these mighty stern-minded Moderators such princely sums (and in Talierin's case, a princessly sum, is it not?) for in the first place, if not to come down harshly on some minor dispute? Aren't we all meekly at the mercy of the mild Mace of Morgoth?


I'm glad we apparently both agree with my point, which was put forward as underpinning for its principal implication: this entire thread of debate is a great waste of time. Your reason for sustaining such a wearisome quibble ("aside from THAT imperative") seems to me much like the recondite ratiocination of one who must "wholeheartedly" acknowledge that Yes, the Sun does rise in the East, but if it didn't -- and it's only because the Creator of the Universe stacked the deck for His own purposes that it does, anyway -- it would be demonstrably more logical that it should rather rise in the North; after all, the seasons move vertically over the surface of the earth -- why shouldn't the solar course across the sky follow the same more sensible path? Those who in their weak-minded horizontal opposition insist on such insipid and minor details as sunset's splendor on the Western Seas are missing the deeper logical point, or worse, merely "gilding the lily" with their feeble rejoinders! Why indeed should not the Sun instead go down in the South, whence perhaps its warm and golden light might illumine the desert-sorry darkness of misreason which reigns over that sandy and wind-swept wasteland, where no wise man long wanders for the weal of his wits? Well, I'm waiting!


On a slightly less sarcastic note, your admirably even-handed analysis of the various "arguments given by the characters in the book" (as opposed to those offered by the posters on this thread -- though I'm sure your legendary open-mindedness can embrace them as well) which run counter to your own position on the subject as being severally "specious, ingenuous, capricious, mendacious, inane, and silly" rather reminds me of the moral of that Oceanic parable taught by the sages of Samoa, which tells of a sly and surreptitious usurper who stole the High King of the Archipelago's ancient ceremonial seat and sought to stash the royal symbol away in the back room of the bamboo hut up on stilts where he lived, only to see its richly decorated weight soon come crashing down through the floor of his dwelling and so clearly reveal to the curious crowd of assembled Polynesians his perfidious pilfering: "People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones."

 

[Harad]

Aldanil,

Thank you for spending so much of your valuable time identifying this thread as a waste thereof. I was unclear on your theme before, but now have zeroed in on its essence. As I presume your work here is done, you can now focus your attention on protecting other people from any similar thread, in the unlikely possibility that it is as tiresome and pointless as this one.

As my points have been proven without serious refutation, there is no need for the opposite view to be further presented, as you have so staunchly proven.

 

[Goro Shimura]

ratiocination...
surreptious...
perfidious...

No matter what anyone thinks about the point under discussion... (assuming that there is a point) Aldanil deserves a prize for the coherent use of the most SAT words in a single post.

 

[Snaga]

So we're all agreed then? He definitely wanted to go to Lothlorien?

All the specious ratiocination, or if I might indulge myself fallacious syllogisms, on the part of Gandalf obscure the exigence of the Moria route in order to take advantage of the recuperative properties of riparian Lorien's Nimrodel-side location, not to mention the preternatural prescience of Galadriel's Mirror. Bearing in mind the subsequent obstreperous objections of Gimli and Boromir such Byzantine obfuscation appears expedicious.

 

[Harad]

I pity the fool who says we arent.

Hail VoKs simple prose.

 

[Aldanil]

I rather liked "recondite" myself; but having no one even complain about, much less have a laugh at, that old shaggy-dog joke does seem sort of a shame...

 

[Snaga]

recondite was good! Actually I liked the alliteration 'recondite ratiocination' best of all; so much I had to imitate with 'preternatural prescience' and 'obstreperous objections'!

Anyway how could anyone object to such a beautifully articulate post?

PS - excuse my ignorance. Whats a SAT word? Acronym overload!

 

[Harad]

scholastic aptitude test
or is it
saruman's armored tower

 

[Aldanil]

that infamous acronym

it's Sesquipedalian Autoerotic Terminology, I think...

 

[Harad]

Originally posted by Grond
... I wonder why Gandalf took the Fellowship through Moria when the Gap of Rohan would have been so much better of a choice...

Finally! My first convert.

Still we probably agree that the party chose the more difficult Moria path to fulfill Gandalf's imperative of reaching Lorien.

 

[Aldanil]

Declare Victory Then and Withdraw

Winning over so mighty an adherent as Grond the Great is surely an achievement to be savored, Harad, although I rather suspect the Mace's tongue to have been somewhere in the vicinity of his evil cheek in thus acquiescing to your point. Still, I think you should declare yourself in this matter of the Gap versus the Mines now and at long long last Triumphant, and let your troops come home for the holidays. To borrow one of your own eloquent phrases posted to another overspun argumentative thread, about whether the shadow which comes in over the gate at Bree that fateful night was Strider or a Ringwraith: CASE CLOSED!

And just to show that there aren't any hard feelings in the matter (nor ever were, really, although Harad feelings can't be entirely dismissed) let's crank up another line of debate, this one filled with quibbles about How Gandalf took the Fellowship through Moria. Much has been made of Pippin's foolishness in dropping that stone into the guard-room well and so rousing ominous hammer-taps down in the Deep. (More might also be made of the inferior and suspense-undercutting effect substituted in the movie with PJ's overwrought vaudeville routine of the cobwebby corpse falling in while dragging that ridiculous chain, but that rant's for a thread in another part of this multifarious Forum, and I digress already...) The wizard is quite indignant at our young Took's folly, and suggests only half in jest that he should throw himself in the next time; after all, a heedless and unthinking hobbit must not jeopardize the safety of the Company on its secret and "serious" journey. Nevertheless, and not very long after, when Gandalf finds himself temporarily at a loss to determine the best way forward, and pauses to consider while the others rest, he takes out his pipe and starts puffing away! I had never thought much of this until recently, Harad, save for the fondness I still feel from my very first reading for that clearly drawn and comforting image of "the old wizard huddled on the floor, shielding a glowing chip in his gnarled hands between his knees. The flicker for a moment showed his sharp nose, and the puff of smoke." I fear that your critical turn of mind is proving infectious, however; if one lights up a pipe in an open space even large as a lecture-hall, the smell soon announces itself in the farthest corner of the room. Some people say that the aroma of pipe-weed is pleasant and soothing, and we don't know what manner of leaf Gandalf is enjoying, although some fine variety from the Southfarthing seems a reasonable guess; be all that as it may, there's no way any orc in the area who isn't totally deaf in the nose fails to sniff out the scent within a matter of minutes! Is Mithrandir meshugga for his meerschaum, or what?

 

[Harad]

Infectious indeed. I might as well trade in my curmudgeon card if YOU are going to come up with glitches.

But of course. Not only was the Pipe a Light in the Darkness of Everybody's Heart, but an Osmotic distribution of Southfarthing miniscules sure to grab the attention of any Snagas within Moria, they being mostly nose.

Shall we dust off the Gandalf-Wanted-to-Fall theory?