Originally posted by pohuist
See, that's my problem. Its kind of hard for me to believe that she was a Maia -- she almost killed Melkor, the most powerful Vala, but for the host of Bakrogs that came to his rescue and drove her away. On the other hand, Tolkien does not write about any other spirits besides the Valar and the Maiar. (people still speculate on the nature of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry)
Notice that here it says "among them many of the greatest and most fair". There were still many powerful Ainur who remained with Eru in the Void. I have always speculated that Ungoliant was a late-comer Ainu who was of great Power. She clove to the Darkness as her nature must have been akin to Melkor and surely she would have sung in his discord of the Music.from The Silmarillion, The Ainulindale
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
It was only when Ungoliant tried to force Melkor to give up the Silmarils that he decided to fight her and summoned his Balrogs to him.from The Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor
'Not so much,' said Ungoliant. 'But thou hast a great treasure from Formenos; I will have all that. yea, with both hands thou shalt give it.'
Then perforce Morgoth surrendered to her the gems that he bore with him, one by one and grudgingly; and she devoured them, and their beauty perished from the world. huger and darker yet grew Ungoliant, but her lust was unsated. 'With one hand thou givest,' she said; 'with the left only. Open thy right hand.'
Thanks, Grond, that actually does make a lot of sence and seems very plausible to me.Originally posted by Grond
Notice that here it says "among them many of the greatest and most fair". There were still many powerful Ainur who remained with Eru in the Void. I have always speculated that Ungoliant was a late-comer Ainu who was of great Power. She clove to the Darkness as her nature must have been akin to Melkor and surely she would have sung in his discord of the Music.
I think your recollection is slightly off(does not change much though). AFAR Melkor became afraid of her, but still refused to give away Silmarils whereas she started to fight him. My understanding of the passage that follows is that when she bound him with stinging cords, he couldn't cut them and gave a cry of pain and fear (as opposed to summoning Balrogs). Incidentally, quite a few Balrogs, still lurked in Angband, they heard it and came to his aid.It was only when Ungoliant tried to force Melkor to give up the Silmarils that he decided to fight her and summoned his Balrogs to him.
Can an Ainu be famished? (Gandalf & Co. do not count, they were intentionally made susceptible to weaknesses of men).Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.
Angelimar was the twentieth in unbroken descent from Galador, first Lord of Dol Amroth who was the son of Imrazór and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves that fled to the coast about the year 1980 of the Third Age, when evil arose in Moria; and Nimrodel and her maidens stayed in the wooded hills, and were lost. From then it was ever held that the house and kin of the Lords of Dol Amroth was noble by blood as they were fair in face and mind.
Dontcha...there might be none left for me to disagree withOriginally posted by Grond
And I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week... so I won't be here.
Well, Master Grond, I am trying....I am TRYING!!!Grond:
Lhunithiliel, why don't you do a recap of the questions which have yet to be satisfactorily answered. As for questions that have already been asked, we'll need a referee in here to stop those.
Anc and Walter, NOW IS THE TIME!Grond: And I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week... so I won't be here
"The Fall of Gondolin", LTNor Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor thetowers of Trui, nor all the many takings of Rum that is greatest among Men, saw such terror as fell that day upon Amon Gwareth in the kindred of the Gnomes;
I think it's more probable that he didn't awoke at Cuiviénen .See Quendi and Eldar in War of the Jewels. They were only 144 elves with their mates.
The idea of the Palantíri. I don't know what you mean. I would say that Fëanor got it from the eagles of Manwë, but I think that you know that already."How did Tolkien come up to the idea of the Pal. if these devices seem ahead of our modern days even?" If nothing is known on the issue, then some of you, Experts and Masters, just tell me to ...... find myself another thing to ponder on!
I haven't researched it so I don't know. yet.for which I thank her very much, but the question included "... for what particular purpose?" ... Noone has so far said anything further on this.
You can find more info in the Book of Lost Tales IICould someone tell me smth. more about the towns listed in the above quote? Where can some information be found about them and of what happened to them?
Bablon, Ninwi, Trui, Rûm The original text of Tuor A had Babylon, Nineveh, Troy, and (probably) Rome. These were changed to the forms given in the text, except Nineveh > Ninwë, changed to Ninwi in Tuor B.
From: UT:
And one day, as Tuor sat upon the shore, he heard the rush and whine of great wings, and he looked up and saw SEVEN white swans flying in a swift wedge southward.
…… and he took the SEVEN feathers(of the swans) and set them in the crest of his helm……
Now Tuor journeyed south along the coast for full SEVEN days……
Voronwe: I will not darken your heart son of Middle-earth, with the tale of my labour SEVEN years in the Great Sea from the North even into the South……
"Yea, indeed," said Voronwë; "to a stranger it might seen that pride has made the servants of Turgon pitiless. Long and hard seem the leagues of the SEVEN Gates to the hungry an wayworn."
SEVEN great pillars of steel there were, tall with the height and girth of strong young trees, but ending in a bitter spike that rose to the sharpness of a needle; and between the pillars were SEVEN cross-bars of steel, and in each space SEVEN times SEVEN rods of steel upright, with heads like the broad blades of spears……..
…. Silent upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the SEVEN kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented; but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.
From "The Fall of Gondolin", LT:
And Ilfiniol was fain of that, but said he: 'It is amighty tale, and SEVEN times shall folk fare to the Tale-fire ere it be rightly told;
But now the men of Melko have assembled their forces, and
SEVEN dragons of fire are come with Orcs …….
Then said Idril: "Woe is me whose father awaiteth doom evenupon his topmost pinnacle; but SEVEN times woe whose lord hath gone down before Melko and will stride home no more!" ……
Now the Mountains or rather their lowest hills were on that side SEVEN leagues save a mile from Gondolin, …….
Of the wolfriders there were a score, and of the men that were about Earendel but six living = 7
The symbol of Gondor during the rule of the Steward's did not include the Palantiri nor the Crown. The banner of the Kingless Gondor was simply a white tree on a field of sable. Only with the return of Aragorn to the Kingship was the King's banner restored. It had a Crown for the King, and both the White Tree and the Palantiri (both gifts from the Eldar to the Faithful) to remind them of their kinship to the People of Valinor and Tol Eressea.Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
QUESTION?
The symbol of Gondor were the seven stars and a white tree.
The seven stars are said to be the seven Palantiri, brought to ME by seven of the 9 ships that escaped the Fall of Numenor.
As for the tree – I understand its spiritual importance to be used as a symbol. But the Palantiri were just clever devices. Why were they so important as to put them in the symbol, also taking in consideration that their use and importance had long ago faded at the time Minas Tirith was the strong capital of Gondor?
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