The Never Asked Question

[pohuist]

See, that's my problem. Its kind of hard for me to believe that she was a Maia -- she almost killed Melkor, the most powerful Vala, but for the host of Bakrogs that came to his rescue and drove her away. On the other hand, Tolkien does not write about any other spirits besides the Valar and the Maiar. (people still speculate on the nature of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry)

 

[gate7ole]

Well, Ungoliant tried to kill Melkor (though I doubt that he can be killed-he is immortal), because Melkor was spent at that time, while Ungoliant having devoured all this light became more powerful and would beat even Melkor

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by pohuist
See, that's my problem. Its kind of hard for me to believe that she was a Maia -- she almost killed Melkor, the most powerful Vala, but for the host of Bakrogs that came to his rescue and drove her away. On the other hand, Tolkien does not write about any other spirits besides the Valar and the Maiar. (people still speculate on the nature of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry)

from The Silmarillion, The Ainulindale
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

Notice that here it says "among them many of the greatest and most fair". There were still many powerful Ainur who remained with Eru in the Void. I have always speculated that Ungoliant was a late-comer Ainu who was of great Power. She clove to the Darkness as her nature must have been akin to Melkor and surely she would have sung in his discord of the Music.

When they destroyed the Two Trees and stole the Silmarils, Ungoliant was fed the Jewels of Formenos and this only added to her strength.

from The Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor
'Not so much,' said Ungoliant. 'But thou hast a great treasure from Formenos; I will have all that. yea, with both hands thou shalt give it.'

Then perforce Morgoth surrendered to her the gems that he bore with him, one by one and grudgingly; and she devoured them, and their beauty perished from the world. huger and darker yet grew Ungoliant, but her lust was unsated. 'With one hand thou givest,' she said; 'with the left only. Open thy right hand.'

It was only when Ungoliant tried to force Melkor to give up the Silmarils that he decided to fight her and summoned his Balrogs to him.

 

[Melian Le Fay]

I don't know if this Q has already been answered, but here it is:

In LOTR (ROTK, I think) the writer mantiones " The children of Nimrodel"
And at the end of The Sil (index of names) Nimrodel, the Lady of the White Cave is also mentioned. Who was she, and why were her offsprings so special (Legolas, I think, notices he could see the warriors who came to the battle of Minas Tirith had her blood...)
Does anyone know the answer?

 

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Grond
Notice that here it says "among them many of the greatest and most fair". There were still many powerful Ainur who remained with Eru in the Void. I have always speculated that Ungoliant was a late-comer Ainu who was of great Power. She clove to the Darkness as her nature must have been akin to Melkor and surely she would have sung in his discord of the Music.

Thanks, Grond, that actually does make a lot of sence and seems very plausible to me.

It was only when Ungoliant tried to force Melkor to give up the Silmarils that he decided to fight her and summoned his Balrogs to him.

I think your recollection is slightly off(does not change much though). AFAR Melkor became afraid of her, but still refused to give away Silmarils whereas she started to fight him. My understanding of the passage that follows is that when she bound him with stinging cords, he couldn't cut them and gave a cry of pain and fear (as opposed to summoning Balrogs). Incidentally, quite a few Balrogs, still lurked in Angband, they heard it and came to his aid.

Now, the Sil says

Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.

Can an Ainu be famished? (Gandalf & Co. do not count, they were intentionally made susceptible to weaknesses of men).

 

[gate7ole]

Millena,

There is a chapter (of ten pages) titled “Amroth and Nimrodel” in Unfinished Tales. It gives much info on the subject you ask. Briefly:
Amroth was an elven king of Lorien before Galadriel and Celeborn became lord and lady respectively. He loved Nimrodel but she wanted to be taken to a more peaceful land. So Amroth decided to take her to the havens and travel to the West. But they were separated on the way and Amroth went to the havens and built a port in Dol Amroth waiting for her. When his ship sailed without Nimrodel he jumped in the sea and was lost forever. The fate of Nimrodel is unknown.
As for your specific question, Prince Imrahil had origins from the line of Nimrodel which makes him (and his kin) great warriors as shown in UT again:
In summary:

Angelimar was the twentieth in unbroken descent from Galador, first Lord of Dol Amroth who was the son of Imrazór and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves that fled to the coast about the year 1980 of the Third Age, when evil arose in Moria; and Nimrodel and her maidens stayed in the wooded hills, and were lost. From then it was ever held that the house and kin of the Lords of Dol Amroth was noble by blood as they were fair in face and mind.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

ORDER!!!

I would like to ask all who post in this thread to keep some order!

A question asked by someone must be FIRST answered or the asker - directed to where to look for an answer, and ONLY then a new question should be put forward!
Untill now TWO of my own questions stay unanswered nor had I been given any advice of where to look for some information.

Other questions have been also asked and hardly the discussion on them had started when someone else interrupted it with another question!

So, PLEASE, BE PATIENT!
The questions asked here are interesting and everybody will learn a lot if they let answeres to be provided!

AND DON'T YOU FORGET!
DON'T ASK QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN ASKED BEFORE!
CHECK BEFORE YOU ASK!

 

[Grond]

Lhunithiliel, why don't you do a recap of the questions which have yet to be satisfactorily answered. As for questions that have already been asked, we'll need a referee in here to stop those. And I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week... so I won't be here.

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Grond
And I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week... so I won't be here.

Dontcha...there might be none left for me to disagree with


Enjoy...

 

[pohuist]

Walter,

You can pick on me any time you like (I understand that I am not even close as formidable oponnent as Grond, but I'll do my best)

Oh, and while Lhunithiliel organizes, why do you folks think that majority (IMO) of the the most learned members of this forum (Grond, Ancalagon, Gothmog and [banned] Ulairi to name just a few) chose a name that represents evil. Is evil 'mightier still' as Gandalf said?

 

[Walter]

Well, thanks for the nice offer, pohuist.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Grond:
Lhunithiliel, why don't you do a recap of the questions which have yet to be satisfactorily answered. As for questions that have already been asked, we'll need a referee in here to stop those.

Well, Master Grond, I am trying....I am TRYING!!!
Now, I really DO NOT object to everyone asking questions, but we need answers and opinions and research ... What's the use of asking a question if you can't get a decent opinion from the others?

Take for example my question about the Palantiri - we got an opinion by Walter (Thanks, smily! ) and I have done some research in the books.... But all this does NOT answer the question "How did Tolkien come up to the idea of the Pal. if these devices seem ahead of our modern days even?" If nothing is known on the issue, then some of you, Experts and Masters, just tell me to ...... find myself another thing to ponder on!

And the same thing was with the Argonath-statutes. Our Elf friend Confusticated has offered some research, for which I thank her very much, but the question included "... for what particular purpose?" ... Noone has so far said anything further on this.

Then the question of gate7ole has not even been noticed!

Here are the neglected questions
------------------------------------------

Grond: And I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week... so I won't be here

Anc and Walter, NOW IS THE TIME!

Kidding, Master! The Guildmembers will be an-guard! Don't you worry and send us post cards!

 

[Lhunithiliel]

No new answers to the old questions.

Then how about a new question here:

Nor Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor thetowers of Trui, nor all the many takings of Rum that is greatest among Men, saw such terror as fell that day upon Amon Gwareth in the kindred of the Gnomes;

"The Fall of Gondolin", LT
Could someone tell me smth. more about the towns listed in the above quote? Where can some information be found about them and of what happened to them?

 

[Lhunithiliel]

WHERE ARE THE WISE?[/
No answers lately, nor even new questions!
EXPERTS and MASTERS do you think our questions do not deserve being answered?
Pity! For I have a list of very interesting questions! But if there is noone to answer.....?

 

[Mithlond]

Sorry Lhunithiliel, i dont have an answer to your question posted above, but i would like to post a question that has bugged me for quite a long time.

Did Cirdan awake at Cuiviénen??
I cant find anything in the silm or HoMe that directly states that he did, yet it seems to me that its highly possible that he did.

We know he was Lord of the Falas during the early first age, and that he was part of the group of Teleri that had heard the summons of Ulmo too late, and came to the shores of Beleriand in hopes to go to Valinor to be with Ingwe, Finwe and the rest of their people, but were persuaded to stay by Osse.

We also know that Feanor was the first second generation Elf.

So...was the beginning of Cirdan beside that great lake, or not?

 

[Maedhros]

Are these the questions:

Did Cirdan awake at Cuiviénen??

I think it's more probable that he didn't awoke at Cuiviénen .See Quendi and Eldar in War of the Jewels. They were only 144 elves with their mates.

"How did Tolkien come up to the idea of the Pal. if these devices seem ahead of our modern days even?" If nothing is known on the issue, then some of you, Experts and Masters, just tell me to ...... find myself another thing to ponder on!

The idea of the Palantíri. I don't know what you mean. I would say that Fëanor got it from the eagles of Manwë, but I think that you know that already.

for which I thank her very much, but the question included "... for what particular purpose?" ... Noone has so far said anything further on this.

I haven't researched it so I don't know. yet.

Could someone tell me smth. more about the towns listed in the above quote? Where can some information be found about them and of what happened to them?

You can find more info in the Book of Lost Tales II

Bablon 'was a city of Men, and more rightly Babylon, but such is the Gnomes' name as they now shape it, and they got it from Men aforetime.'

Bablon, Ninwi, Trui, Rûm The original text of Tuor A had Babylon, Nineveh, Troy, and (probably) Rome. These were changed to the forms given in the text, except Nineveh > Ninwë, changed to Ninwi in Tuor B.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you, Maedhros!
As for my "Palantiri"-question - I meant how TOLKIEN had come up to the idea of these devices if they were definitely out of his time and seem a bit out of OUR time even. What? Did he have a "time-machine", or...?
As for the towns, I suspected about Rome, Babylon and the ancient Troya, but what about Ninwi - which ancient town would this be?
Any ideas?... Besides, I think that the events in ME as described, happened LONG BEFORE the existance of Babylon, Troya and Rome(!).
Strange, Ah?
--------------------
Meanwhile, here is another question, since it may be considered that all the above have been already answered by our good Maedhros the Tall.

QUESTION?
The symbol of Gondor were the seven stars and a white tree.
The seven stars are said to be the seven Palantiri, brought to ME by seven of the 9 ships that escaped the Fall of Numenor.
As for the tree – I understand its spiritual importance to be used as a symbol. But the Palantiri were just clever devices. Why were they so important as to put them in the symbol, also taking in consideration that their use and importance had long ago faded at the time Minas Tirith was the strong capital of Gondor?

 

[Dwimmerlaik]

Dear Lhunithiliel,
I think your last question could be boiled down to question's of heraldry.
As you point out,the seven star's are representation's of the palantir,and the white tree is the remnant of Numenor(and it's tree a remnant of Telperion).
It is possible that these two symbol's could also be representation's of the orb and sceptre.The orb being the white tree and thus the kingdom,and the sceptre being the seven star's signifying the kingdom's governance.
Heraldric devices were a means of conveying the bearer's identity,each part of the device signifying the owner's history,claim and position.Most royal coat's of arm's these day's are not understood by the casual observer(though they are still valid nevertheless),should it be any wonder then that when the palantir left the common memory of the people of Gondor,the star's remained?

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Dear Dwimmerlaik, thank you kindly for your answer! Very interesting!
You know, in your answer I found a strange fact - about the orb .
At first, I didn't know the meaning of the word so I looked it up in my dictionary. I somehow never imagined that the western kings too held orbs. I know for sure our kings from the ancient glorious times of our history ( ) did, but the kings from the West......?
--------
Now, my new question to ALL who might know:

QUESTION?
What is it about the number “7” that is so often present in the tales and the stories about Gondolin ?

From: "The Silmarillion:"Then Tuor looked down upon …… Gondolin the great, city of SEVEN names,

From: UT:
And one day, as Tuor sat upon the shore, he heard the rush and whine of great wings, and he looked up and saw SEVEN white swans flying in a swift wedge southward.
…… and he took the SEVEN feathers(of the swans) and set them in the crest of his helm……

Now Tuor journeyed south along the coast for full SEVEN days……

Voronwe: I will not darken your heart son of Middle-earth, with the tale of my labour SEVEN years in the Great Sea from the North even into the South……

"Yea, indeed," said Voronwë; "to a stranger it might seen that pride has made the servants of Turgon pitiless. Long and hard seem the leagues of the SEVEN Gates to the hungry an wayworn."

SEVEN great pillars of steel there were, tall with the height and girth of strong young trees, but ending in a bitter spike that rose to the sharpness of a needle; and between the pillars were SEVEN cross-bars of steel, and in each space SEVEN times SEVEN rods of steel upright, with heads like the broad blades of spears……..

…. Silent upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the SEVEN kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented; but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.

From "The Fall of Gondolin", LT:
And Ilfiniol was fain of that, but said he: 'It is amighty tale, and SEVEN times shall folk fare to the Tale-fire ere it be rightly told;

But now the men of Melko have assembled their forces, and
SEVEN dragons of fire are come with Orcs …….

Then said Idril: "Woe is me whose father awaiteth doom evenupon his topmost pinnacle; but SEVEN times woe whose lord hath gone down before Melko and will stride home no more!" ……

Now the Mountains or rather their lowest hills were on that side SEVEN leagues save a mile from Gondolin, …….

Of the wolfriders there were a score, and of the men that were about Earendel but six living = 7

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
QUESTION?
The symbol of Gondor were the seven stars and a white tree.
The seven stars are said to be the seven Palantiri, brought to ME by seven of the 9 ships that escaped the Fall of Numenor.
As for the tree – I understand its spiritual importance to be used as a symbol. But the Palantiri were just clever devices. Why were they so important as to put them in the symbol, also taking in consideration that their use and importance had long ago faded at the time Minas Tirith was the strong capital of Gondor?

The symbol of Gondor during the rule of the Steward's did not include the Palantiri nor the Crown. The banner of the Kingless Gondor was simply a white tree on a field of sable. Only with the return of Aragorn to the Kingship was the King's banner restored. It had a Crown for the King, and both the White Tree and the Palantiri (both gifts from the Eldar to the Faithful) to remind them of their kinship to the People of Valinor and Tol Eressea.