What if 🧝Feanor had 💀killed Morgoth?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

I believe that the two did battle but that Feanor was slain. However, given that, later on, one of his kids at least maimed Morgoth, I don't suppose that it was beyond the realm of possibility that Feanor had NO hope of winning.

Anyway, suppose that he HAD won and had taken back the Simirals, would he have reformed? Or would his hubris grow larger than ever and STILL lead to great woe for the Noldor per the curse of the Valar?

Perhaps he'd try and make himself king of all Beleriand, acting like an Ar-Pharazôn of the Elves, and start a big Elf civil war that led to Beleriand falling anyway. Heck, it might have been even WORSE for the Noldor had Feanor been the victor than it was in canon.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Now, a question still remains. Who would win? Fëadad or Morgoth the Stinky?

 

[d4rk3lf]

I believe that the two did battle but that Feanor was slain. However, given that, later on, one of his kids at least maimed Morgoth, I don't suppose that it was beyond the realm of possibility that Feanor had NO hope of winning.

As @Celebrimbor Silver-Hand pointed, Feanor never fought Morgoth, but was killed before he cold reach him, by a several Balrogs.
His brother Fingolfin fought the Morgot 1VS1, and lost... not sons.
(sons would have even much less chance)

Anyway, suppose that he HAD won and had taken back the Simirals, would he have reformed? Or would his hubris grow larger than ever and STILL lead to great woe for the Noldor per the curse of the Valar?
Perhaps he'd try and make himself king of all Beleriand, acting like an Ar-Pharazôn of the Elves, and start a big Elf civil war that led to Beleriand falling anyway. Heck, it might have been even WORSE for the Noldor had Feanor been the victor than it was in canon.

Yeah.. something like that...
I assume he would sought to control all of M.E. and eventually even attack Valinor.
He would first attack Tingol with the excuse that Tingol did not welcome them good enough when they arrived, and sooner or later he would be in war with his brother Fingolfin.
This could be also a very nice chance for Sauron to take advantage of the situation, either dividing brothers, or somehow trying to ally himself with Feanor.
With Feanor around long enough, it would be a total mess.

I still love him in some weird way, and I think he was gone too early.
Wish he was a bit longer in there, and maybe even manage to kill Ungoliath (imagine Morgoth terror then, lol).

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

Personally, I find it hard to imagine Fëanor surviving longer than he did in the book. He was pretty much insane by the end of it, and not someone who'd be good at making long-term plans.

If he was still in the state he was in when they hadn't left Valinor yet (from after his speech in Tirion all the way to when he decided to secretly take the ships for his own followers to cross the sea), then maybe he'd be able to think up some plans to attack Morgoth (rather than rushing in blindly).
Still, even then I don't know how good he'd be at being a unifying force, even a tyrannical one like Sauron or Ar-Pharazôn. He was pretty unwilling to compromise for anything. Either everyone follows his way, or he'll just leave them behind or cast them aside like Fingolfin.

I also don't think Fëanor had enough followers to force others to do his will or kill people who resisted. And even if he did, I don't know if they'd be willing. The Kinslaying at Alqualondë started because the Noldor tried to take the ships (not attack the Teleri directly), and the Teleri (of course) fought back. Elves don't usually want to kill each other: there's a reason why the kinslayings and what happened with Maeglin's family were such notable, terrible events.
If Fëanor started trying to force the Sindar to do things for him, it wouldn't work. It would become a conflict, just like with the Teleri. Killing other Elves won't make them join him out of fear, or a desire for power. They'll just keep resisting.

So I'd say that Fëanor doesn't have the mental or physical resources to become a tyrant of the Elves. Even if he somehow managed to kill Morgoth and regain the Silmarils (which I think is very unlikely), I'm not sure how many elves would be willing to follow him. Elves' loyalty to their lord seems to be based on their love for them, and having shared goals with them (whether that be besieging Morgoth, or setting up a hidden kingdom somewhere).
No doubt everyone would be extremely glad that Morgoth was defeated, but I'm not sure how many would flock to Fëanor's banner. They might be more willing to take him as their lord if his leadership was clearly beneficial for those following him. If Fëanor's realm became something like Eregion, I'm sure many people would want to join him. But that would rely on Fëanor's state of mind becoming more stable and less suspicious and greedy.

 

[Ricardo]

Other pointed that Feanor never fought Morgoth. But there is a very important reason why Feanor, or Fiingolfin for that matter would never kill Morgoth.

Incidentally, neither Feanor, nor Fingolfin (or any other elf) could kill Morgoth, not even the Valar could.

If Feanor killed Morgoth it's game over, the Silmarillion only would have a few pages, there would be no story, no tragedy, no adversity and virtually all other characters would become irrelevant.

But for the sake of discussion, let's say Feanor did face Morgoth and killed him (or captured him or whatever).

First, Feanor was too far gone to be content with that revenge and recovering the Silmarils, he wouldn't return to Valinor and expect him to become a sort of tyrant, like a new Dark Lord, but, then there is the matter of Sauron, and also, I don't think Tolkien would have ever gone that melodramatic path.

The big issue here, you need a powerful villain to have a story. Why didn't Tolkien write much about Aman after the Noldor departed, because there wasn't much to say, nothing was happening.

The story of the fighting between Numenor and Sauron dominates the second age, and the third age is dominated by Sauron's threat. Once Sauron was defeated we were left with no worthy villains, so nothing much is said about the fourth age (boring).

 

[d4rk3lf]

If Feanor killed Morgoth it's game over, the Silmarillion only would have a few pages

But there's more then few pages right now, even before Feanor was born.
If I am not wrong, Feanor is like in chapter 3. Plenty of pages before him (and after him).

Beside that, I disagree with plenty of other stuff you said.

- "If Feanor killed Morgoth it's game over"
No. The fate of Arda would twist the other way, but eventually, the will of Eru would be accomplished.

The big issue here, you need a powerful villain to have a story.

Imho, it would not be huge issue with professor if he decided that Feanor Kills Morgoth.

 

[Ent]

you need a powerful villain to have a story

Tolkien, in an interview, said "death" was the key issue in story. The presence or possibility of death.

Personally, I think it can be reduced to these issues:

1. A Conflict (not necessarily a 'villain' - in any conflict, the human will choose who is the villain, and who is the saint - and their choices will not always be the same. So many real-life circumstances demonstrate this they're uncountable.)
2. Presence or possibility of death.
3. Plausibility of the whole. (Characters, situations, circumstances, events.)

One of PJ's problems with his LoTR and Hobbit presentation was his balance of the "plausible" in the midst of so many events. Many watchers simply rejected his premise as consistent with Tolkien's tone. they have a tendency to talk about the "events" as the problem however - rather than recognizing or speaking to the foundational issue making the events unfitting to the scene.

PJ thought they were 'fitting' given what he was trying to do. (make money and appeal to a wide audience.) Those who reject his chioices do not see them as fitting because they have a different objective for the whole.

Would the PJ/Public conflict make a good story itself?

1. It certainly has a conflict. For some, PJ is the villain. For others, the crowd basihng PJ is the villain.
2. It has the presence or possibility of death. The negative crowd would love to have seen its demise.
3. It has plausibility. Not only plausibility but reality.

Yes, a fairly decent story could be written about the RESULTS of PJ's efforts to render Tolkien cinematically.
Many authors make good money writing about such things. (As have many who have written books about Tolkien already.)

To the point of the question asked for this thread: "What if Feanor had killed Morgoth" - I would suggest if that was intended to be the Arc of the whole story, Feanor would not be precisely the Feanor we know - he would have been imagined and written a bit differently - and numerous other stories could have been written, with Feanor becoming the new arch-Villain, or Feanor going mad, moved out of the picture, and another Conflict of some kind arising, or whatever.

The possibilities are literally endless.

 

[Ricardo]

But there's more then few pages right now, even before Feanor was born.
If I am not wrong, Feanor is like in chapter 3. Plenty of pages before him (and after him).

Beside that, I disagree with plenty of other stuff you said.

- "If Feanor killed Morgoth it's game over"
No. The fate of Arda would twist the other way, but eventually, the will of Eru would be accomplished.

Imho, it would not be huge issue with professor if he decided that Feanor Kills Morgoth.

You completely misunderstood this.

Yes, Feanor has a couple of chapter and is mentioned often after. But how the Silmarillion looked if it ended there? Without Morgoth there was nothing left to say. Look at all the superhero movies, the villain has to be tough to defeat and only at the end, otherwise there is no story to tell.

I don't know what you mean with no huge issue with professor. What I meant is that if Feanor had killed Morgoth (which would go against all canon) then you would need a new, as powerful villain to continue the story. Having Feanor become a new dark lord (one of the options) would have been very cheeky and tacky, not Tolkien's style.

When I said game over I didn't mean it the Arda would be over, I meant there would be no story afterwards.

I must add that Tolkien first wrote that Morgoth would be killed by Turin in the Dagor Dagorath, but he abandoned this idea for several reasons.

 

[d4rk3lf]

@Ricardo
Sorry bro.. I was semi-drunk when trying to explain you my point of view (and failed).

Now, allow me to explain you (hopefully more clear), while again, semi-drunk, my thoughts.

What I was saying is (when I said I fully disagree with you) is your conclusion that the Silmarillion would be pointless if Feanor killed Morgoth.
Let me rephrase it like this: Sure, it would be pretty much pointless, but I don't think that will be a "huge issue with professor" meaning that Tolkien would give amazing story afterwards, even the situation gone that way. He was so talented in story telling imho, that there is no story (unless written by psyho Martin.. lol), that Tolkien couldn't turn around in awesome way.
You say after Feanor death the story wouldn't be "Tolkien style"
I say, if Tolkien was alive right now, and we asked him to quickly give us version of that, he would definitely come up with some awesome story "Tolkien style".
Maybe that first version of the story will be full of holes... but if would be awesome nevertheless.

And as for your last point... Dagor Dagorath... and Turin killing Morgoth... that reminds me... man, there was that guy in the forum that liked so much Turin, and always asked all of us why we refuse to admit he is the ultimate badass... and I was finding him fun in a way, and even tried to mock him (my bad), but the guy kept resistant in his love of Turun... And I miss him now... that guy LOVES Turin so MUCH.
And I love him, because of that.
I am sure you'll never figure out his nickname.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

 

[Ricardo]

@Ricardo
Sorry bro.. I was semi-drunk when trying to explain you my point of view (and failed).

Pretty good for semi-drunk, I would have made a lot less sense.

Now, allow me to explain you (hopefully more clear), while again, semi-drunk, my thoughts.

What I was saying is (when I said I fully disagree with you) is your conclusion that the Silmarillion would be pointless if Feanor killed Morgoth.
Let me rephrase it like this: Sure, it would be pretty much pointless, but I don't think that will be a "huge issue with professor" meaning that Tolkien would give amazing story afterwards, even the situation gone that way. He was so talented in story telling imho, that there is no story (unless written by psyho Martin.. lol), that Tolkien couldn't turn around in awesome way.

II don't disagree about Tolkien's ability to create wonderful stories, yet, he never was able to finish the Silmarillion. He was a perfectionist. If you read the history of Middle Earth you can see the very complex process to arrive to the stories told in the Silmarillion. Morgoth was the perfect foe, powerful, evil. Tolkien already had a replacement in Sauron, but I don't think he was a match for first age elves.

Besides, Morgoth couldn't be killed, he was an Ainur, a spirit to preceded Ea. Changing that would have meant very, very deep changes in the Legendarium, and we know Tolkien didn't like that.

He changed his mind about the origin of Orcs because he first conception didn't agree with the mythology, never came out with a satisfactory conclusion.

Also remember that some of the stories in the Silmarillion that are chronologically late, were actually written first, like the fall of Gondolin or the Lay of Leithian (which was the base for Beren and Luthien). He didn't write the stories of the silmarillion from A to Z. He wrote a series of stories and then started to put them together, a tribute to his brilliance that he could do that, but he was unable to finish.

You say after Feanor death the story wouldn't be "Tolkien style"
I say, if Tolkien was alive right now, and we asked him to quickly give us version of that, he would definitely come up with some awesome story "Tolkien style".
Maybe that first version of the story will be full of holes... but if would be awesome nevertheless.

Yes, but the Sillmarillion is Tolkien's life achievement, I don't think he merely would want to entertain us. Feanor killing Morgoth and becoming a dark lord himself would be too cheeky IMO.

And as for your last point... Dagor Dagorath... and Turin killing Morgoth... that reminds me... man, there was that guy in the forum that liked so much Turin, and always asked all of us why we refuse to admit he is the ultimate badass... and I was finding him fun in a way, and even tried to mock him (my bad), but the guy kept resistant in his love of Turun... And I miss him now... that guy LOVES Turin so MUCH.
And I love him, because of that.
I am sure you'll never figure out his nickname.

Turin Fan or something like that?


I would love to discuss Turin. People either love him or hate him, was a strong character for sure and one of the most complex in Tolkien's writings. To be honest, personally I don't like his stories, not because of him but the whole story with the children of Hurin is just too depressing and nothing good comes out of it. I had the feeling that Tolkien might had written it in a dark time in his life.

 

[banakil]

Is it even possible for Feanor to be more based?

First, it would be tragic to lose the Feanorian spirit implosion upon his death. That scene lives rent-free in all of our brains. So the first thing that would need to happen is we mourn the loss of that epicness.

Second, you'd need to construct a new ending where Feanor ultimately fulfills the tragic destiny of the elves, and you simultaneously must uplift a new villain (greater than Sauron) to be worthy of the likes of Luthien.

I'm begging you, don't do it! Let Feanor go to Mandos

 

[Beleg_Cúthalion]

I think that if Feanor had won against Morgoth then he might become a terror in elven society. He would still try to regain the other Silmarils, and that would have lead to chaos over the land. With he and his sons out of hand, more tragedy would have happened, although the outcome would be the same. Just as Aragorn and Arwen were destined for each other, destiny is what lead to Sauron's defeat in the third age, something that even the strongest darklords couldn't defeat.

 

[Frandîr]

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What was the actual wound Fingolfin inflicted on Morgoth? The heel? The toe? The ankle?

 

[Ricardo]

What was the actual wound Fingolfin inflicted on Morgoth? The heel? The toe? The ankle?

Fingolfin inflicted 7 wounds to Morgoth, the last one when he was being crushed on the foot. Where on the foot I don't thinks it is said.

 

[Frandîr]

Fingolfin inflicted 7 wounds to Morgoth, the last one when he was being crushed on the foot. Where on the foot I don't thinks it is said.

Let's take wild guesses. While Fingolfin was being crushed, his arm length couldn't have reached higher than Morgoth's knee...so I'm guessing his calf or shin?

 

[Ricardo]

Ringil was a long sword but Morgoth was very tall.

No matter, the Silmarillion says the last injury was to the foot