HLGStrider
All Knowing Magic Cat
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2001
- Messages
- 7,750
HLGStrider said:
I kindly disagree:Barliman Butterbur said:
More generally, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, and the Atrabeth, both state that everything depends on Eru, at every moment, including the actions of His creations.Letter #192 said:Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' (as one critic has said).
As I understand it, deus ex machina is a solution that gets the good guy out of trouble, and not the bad guy into it (as with Gollum in the volcano):
Barliman Butterbur said:"An unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, esp. as a contrived plot device in a play or novel." (Oxford Dictionary, 2nd Ed.); "1. A god introduced into a play to resolve the entanglements of the plot. 2. Any artificial or improbable device resolving the difficulties of a plot." (Random House Unabridged, 2nd Ed.)
of the saga. Nothing "deus" about it.
Barley
Firawyn said:Do you have those books? *grumbles* Man, I'd kill for a look at your personal library...
If we are looking at the "first level meta view" (I am not sure what it means), we could also note that writting in itself, being a means of communing with God, is also a manifestation of His grace - I would bring into discussion the famous dialogue between Tolkien and Lewis:Letter #89 said:For it I coined the word 'eucatastrophe': the sudden happy turn in a story which pierces you with a joy that brings tears (which I argued it is the highest function of fairy-stories to produce). And I was there led to the view that it produces its peculiar effect because it is a sudden glimpse of Truth, your whole nature chained in material cause and effect, the chain of death, feels a sudden relief as if a major limb out of joint had suddenly snapped back. It perceives - if the story has literary 'truth' on the second plane (for which see the essay) - that this is indeed how things really do work in the Great World for which our nature is made. And I concluded by saying that the Resurrection was the greatest 'eucatastrophe' possible in the greatest Fairy Story - and produces that essential emotion: Christian joy which produces tears because it is qualitatively so like sorrow, because it comes from those places where Joy and Sorrow are at one, reconciled, as selfishness and altruism are lost in Love. Of course I do not mean that the Gospels tell what is only a fairy-story; but I do mean very strongly that they do tell a fairy-story: the greatest.
But, said Lewis, myths are lies, even though lies breathed through silver. No, said Tolkien, they are not. And, indicating the great trees of Magdalen Grove as their branches bent in the wind, he struck out a different line of argument.
You call a tree a tree, he said, and you think nothing more of the word. But it was not a ‘tree’ until someone gave it that name. You call a star a star, and say it is just a ball of matter moving on a mathematical course. But that is merely how you see it. By so naming things and describing them you are only inventing your own terms about them. And just as speech is invention about objects and ideas, so myth is invention about truth.
We have come from God (continued Tolkien), and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming a ‘sub-creator’ and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, [while materialistic ‘progress’ leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil.]
This is not deus ex machina but “fate,” if you care to call it that.‘possession’ satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo’s sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.
I disagree (emphasis mine):Catastrophe and Eucastrophe are the inevitable outcome of a series of events.
On fairy stories said:The consolation of fairy-stories, the joy of the happy ending: or more correctly of the good catastrophe, the sudden joyous “turn” (for there is no true end to any fairy-tale): this joy, which is one of the things which fairy-stories can produce supremely well, is not essentially “escapist,” nor “fugitive.” In its fairy-tale—or otherworld—setting, it is a sudden and miraculous grace: never to be counted on to recur. It does not deny the existence of dyscatastrophe, of sorrow and failure: the possibility of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance; it denies (in the face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat and in so far is evangelium, giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief.
Thorondor said:I disagree (emphasis mine):
Under most, if not all, circumstances, there will always be someone who believes that what actually happened isn't the best for him/her. The Authority could think otherwise (and I could quote the letters stating that divine punishments are also divine blessings, due to the supreme inventinveness of the Creator) - but, as Pacino stated, "free will...it's a bitch" (if I may say so).As for Gollum falling in the soup — it sure wasn't eucatastrophic for him! He simply got what was (at long last!) coming to him! And that's called "just desserts," and well-deserved. A eucatastrophe is something good for everybody — like rain after a drought, for instance, or a god deciding not to destroy humankind.
Ok, let's have another go at it:You can disagree — even with emphasis — but that doesn't make your argument correct.
Tolkien stated (see my previous post) that the eucatastrophe is sudden, miraculous, cannot be counted on to occur, it does not deny the possibility of failure and it even occurs in the face of much (adverse I would say) evidence. All these descriptions refute Alcuin's statement that the eucatastrophe is inevitable - it is its uncertainty that brings about "the fleeting glimps of joy" when it actually occurs. If eucatastrophe is inevitable, then the dyscatastrophe is impossible, but this is refuted by Tolkien. It would not make for a good fairy storyAlcuin said:Catastrophe and Eucastrophe are the inevitable outcome of a series of events.
Thorondor_ said:Under most, if not all, circumstances, there will always be someone who believes that what actually happened isn't the best for him/her. The Authority could think otherwise (and I could quote the letters stating that divine punishments are also divine blessings, due to the supreme inventinveness of the Creator) - but, as Pacino stated, "free will...it's a bitch" (if I may say so).
Thorondor_ said:
You may be correct. But in Arda, that would be attributed to the “Morgoth-element” in one who cannot or will not enjoy the happiness of another (if it is not derived from evil, as the “happiness” of a felon might be when he has first committed his crime and before he is caught or punished): jealousy, covetousness, or just plain malice.Thorondor_ said:...I maintain my opinion that for every event, there will be someone unhappy about it. Moreover, some people even lack the capacity to enjoy this ... joy, due to their particular sensibility...
I agree - that makes very much sense.Alcuin said:You may be correct. But in Arda, that would be attributed to the “Morgoth-element” in one who cannot or will not enjoy the happiness of another (if it is not derived from evil, as the “happiness” of a felon might be when he has first committed his crime and before he is caught or punished): jealousy, covetousness, or just plain malice.
Thorondor_ said:I see; I maintain my opinion that for every event, there will be someone unhappy about it. Moreover, some people even lack the capacity to enjoy this ... joy, due to their particular sensibility. I doubt that Tolkien expected everyone to feel this emotion, seeing how even he is very surprised by the success of the Hobbit or LotR.
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