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What was 🧙Radagast’s fate?

What do you think became of Radagast?

  • Returned by Elven-ship to the West

    Votes: 3 10.7%
  • Died in Middle-earth, returned to the West

    Votes: 7 25.0%
  • Died in Middle-earth, refused admission to the West

    Votes: 1 3.6%
  • Still in Middle-earth, eats Ben & Jerry’s and wears Birkenstocks

    Votes: 14 50.0%
  • Nonsense! Radagast is a moth!

    Votes: 3 10.7%

  • Total voters
    28
Except trees aren't as slimey. . .

I think there are differing levels of dues ex machina. Gollum falling into the volcano due to a trip is one too. You could argue that Tolkien used this one as an example of the powers for work for good as well as evil, and I think it has been argued very successfully in other places, but that isn't the topic here, so I'm just going to mention it and if any one else wants to look into the old threads, more power to them.
 
HLGStrider said:
I think there are differing levels of dues ex machina. Gollum falling into the volcano due to a trip is one too. You could argue that Tolkien used this one as an example of the powers for work for good as well as evil, and I think it has been argued very successfully in other places...

As I understand it, deus ex machina is a solution that gets the good guy out of trouble, and not the bad guy into it (as with Gollum in the volcano):

"An unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, esp. as a contrived plot device in a play or novel." (Oxford Dictionary, 2nd Ed.); "1. A god introduced into a play to resolve the entanglements of the plot. 2. Any artificial or improbable device resolving the difficulties of a plot." (Random House Unabridged, 2nd Ed.)

Hence the Eagles flying in to save the day as first seen in the Battle of Five Armies, and the battle in front of the Morannon, or the sheriff's posse riding in at the last second to save the day, as in countless B westerns. ;)

There is also the tendency of bad authors, when self-painted into a corner, to come up with some last-minute lame ploy that "saves the day." Gollum's fate was foreseen by Tolkien from the outset, and was an integral and necessary element of the saga. Nothing "deus" about it. :)

Barley
 
Barliman Butterbur said:
Gollum's fate was foreseen by Tolkien from the outset, and was an integral and necessary element of the saga. Nothing "deus" about it. :)
I kindly disagree:
Letter #192 said:
Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' (as one critic has said).
More generally, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, and the Atrabeth, both state that everything depends on Eru, at every moment, including the actions of His creations.
 
As I understand it, deus ex machina is a solution that gets the good guy out of trouble, and not the bad guy into it (as with Gollum in the volcano):

I think it got almost all the good guys out of trouble because it stopped Sauron from pouncing on the ring last minute. It's like an anticlimatic moment where the bad guy is standing on the edge of the cliff cackling at the conquered good guys about how he's won, he's won, and nothing can stop him. MU HA HA HA! When he trips over the hem of his long, flowing, all so awesome purple robe and falls over backwards into nothingness.
 
Barliman Butterbur said:
"An unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, esp. as a contrived plot device in a play or novel." (Oxford Dictionary, 2nd Ed.); "1. A god introduced into a play to resolve the entanglements of the plot. 2. Any artificial or improbable device resolving the difficulties of a plot." (Random House Unabridged, 2nd Ed.)

of the saga. Nothing "deus" about it. :)

Barley


Do you have those books? *grumbles* Man, I'd kill for a look at your personal library...:cool:
 
The expression deus ex machina, although Latin, comes from the habit of Greek playwrights having gods enter their plays by lowering the actors portraying the gods onto the stage by means of a rope and pulley. It translates as “god from a machine.” This plot device was sometimes used to extricate the characters in the play from one problem or another, often toward the end of the drama.
 
Firawyn said:
Do you have those books? *grumbles* Man, I'd kill for a look at your personal library...:cool:

The Oxford is actually a part of every Mac owner's operating system: it comes as a part of OS X, and is instantly available with one click of the mouse. The Random Unabridged (which weighs 13 pounds) squats at the ready upon my desk, and is consulted frequently by my wife and myself.

As for my library — *sigh* — if I still had all the books I've at one time or another over the long years given away; were borrowed and never returned; sold to bookstores; tossed out, we'd both be living out on our balcony or up on the roof...:eek:

And Alcuin: an excellent definition of the original "deus!" :)

Thorondor: You're taking a kind of "second-level meta-view" there. If I understand you correctly, you're taking Tolkien's letter to mean that Eru was the ultimate control, and that everything that transpired was the expression of his desire. But Tolkien created Eru (the "first-level meta-view"), who is yet another character in Tolkien's saga. That's sub- and not full creation, m'boy! :)

Barley
 
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Barley, m'boy :p , what part of the definition of act of God (or deus ex machina if you will) doesn't Gollum's fall fulfill? It is clearly an eucatastrophe, and such an event is clearly religious/spiritual in Tolkien's work. There is this passage from the Letters, quite long, that shows, more than most, that Tolkien's works mirrors the religious works of Christianity
Letter #89 said:
For it I coined the word 'eucatastrophe': the sudden happy turn in a story which pierces you with a joy that brings tears (which I argued it is the highest function of fairy-stories to produce). And I was there led to the view that it produces its peculiar effect because it is a sudden glimpse of Truth, your whole nature chained in material cause and effect, the chain of death, feels a sudden relief as if a major limb out of joint had suddenly snapped back. It perceives - if the story has literary 'truth' on the second plane (for which see the essay) - that this is indeed how things really do work in the Great World for which our nature is made. And I concluded by saying that the Resurrection was the greatest 'eucatastrophe' possible in the greatest Fairy Story - and produces that essential emotion: Christian joy which produces tears because it is qualitatively so like sorrow, because it comes from those places where Joy and Sorrow are at one, reconciled, as selfishness and altruism are lost in Love. Of course I do not mean that the Gospels tell what is only a fairy-story; but I do mean very strongly that they do tell a fairy-story: the greatest.
If we are looking at the "first level meta view" (I am not sure what it means), we could also note that writting in itself, being a means of communing with God, is also a manifestation of His grace - I would bring into discussion the famous dialogue between Tolkien and Lewis:
But, said Lewis, myths are lies, even though lies breathed through silver. No, said Tolkien, they are not. And, indicating the great trees of Magdalen Grove as their branches bent in the wind, he struck out a different line of argument.

You call a tree a tree, he said, and you think nothing more of the word. But it was not a ‘tree’ until someone gave it that name. You call a star a star, and say it is just a ball of matter moving on a mathematical course. But that is merely how you see it. By so naming things and describing them you are only inventing your own terms about them. And just as speech is invention about objects and ideas, so myth is invention about truth.

We have come from God (continued Tolkien), and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming a ‘sub-creator’ and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, [while materialistic ‘progress’ leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil.]
 
“Acts of Eru” (in Tolkien’s Legendarium) do not count as deus ex machina. The concept of eucastrophe is quite outside its scope: only semantics and a tendentious argumentum ad minutiae infinitum can make it so, and then only by exasperating the opposition: and that is not victory, but opprobrium. Deus ex machina is a literary plot device that, as Barley observes, is generally regarded as a “tendency of bad authors, when self-painted into a corner, to come up with some last-minute lame ploy.” The death of Gollum was fore-ordained. In Letter 246, Tolkien remarks that had Gollum repented of evil, he would still have stolen the Ring, and then
‘possession’ satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo’s sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.
This is not deus ex machina but “fate,” if you care to call it that.

The intervention of Athena in the battle between Hector and Achilles (definitely not the Brad Pitt movie version) in which Athena deceived Hector into believing that his weapons-bearer was at hand with a second spear is also not deus ex machina; but had Aphrodite appeared and dazzled Achilles before he struck the killing blow, causing him and all the Greeks to make peace and sail home: that might count as deus ex machina. When Castor and Pollux appear at the end of Euripides’ Electra to set everything right after Electra has committed matricide, that definitely counts as deus ex machina, and is a classic example. For all his fame, Euripides made a habit of using this plot device and was ridiculed for it in his own lifetime.

Euripides and Socrates were friends; in fact, some Athenians accused (that is the correct word, I believe) Socrates of having written or helped write some of Euripides’ plays. Another famous Greek playwright and contemporary, Aristophanes, scorched them both in his wildly satiric (and funny) play, The Clouds. (Click it and have a look! Hint: search for “basket” in the text.) Aristophanes portrays Socrates as an impious windbag and skewers Euripides as a bad playwright when he lowers “Socrates” onto the stage in a basket à la deus ex machina to the approving roar of Athenian audiences. I was taught that Euripides was enraged and stormed out, but that Socrates laughed heartily: it is an example of deus ex machina by means of satire.

Catastrophe and Eucastrophe are the inevitable outcome of a series of events. Both may come as a complete surprise to the participants, but in retrospect, there was no other course that could follow. Deus ex machina, however, is “out of the blue,” and there was no way that an audience could anticipate it except by harboring a poor opinion of the author. In that sense, the destruction of the Ring and the ruin of Sauron and all his works, propitiously timed as it was to preserve the Host of the West and thus the Happy Ending – the Eucastrophe – of The Lord of the Rings is the outcome of one step after another in the plotline: it came down to Frodo’s success or failure, and he failed in that the ring overpowered him: but so did Gollum, who had dogged him for two-thirds of the tale to the same inevitable end; and so also did Sauron, though we see him only in the barest glimpses.

The Eagles as they did twice in The Hobbit appear twice out of nowhere in The Lord of the Rings, to perform the same functions as in The Hobbit:
  • remove Gandalf from a sticky situation in a high spot from which he could not otherwise escape, and
  • turn the final tide of a battle that would otherwise have been lost,
and so Tolkien is somtimes criticized for using deus ex machina. But it seems so small an offense when compared to the greater tale: perhaps we should overlook it? Or perhaps it has some other meaning that we have overlooked? The Hand – or Grace – of Eru medially through Manwë and thence by the Eagles to preserve the righteous upon the brink of destruction? Is that deus ex machina or salvation?
 
Catastrophe and Eucastrophe are the inevitable outcome of a series of events.
I disagree (emphasis mine):
On fairy stories said:
The consolation of fairy-stories, the joy of the happy ending: or more correctly of the good catastrophe, the sudden joyous “turn” (for there is no true end to any fairy-tale): this joy, which is one of the things which fairy-stories can produce supremely well, is not essentially “escapist,” nor “fugitive.” In its fairy-tale—or otherworld—setting, it is a sudden and miraculous grace: never to be counted on to recur. It does not deny the existence of dyscatastrophe, of sorrow and failure: the possibility of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance; it denies (in the face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat and in so far is evangelium, giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief.
 
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Thorondor said:
I disagree (emphasis mine):

You can disagree — even with emphasis — but that doesn't make your argument correct. ;)

As for Gollum falling in the soup — it sure wasn't eucatastrophic for him! He simply got what was (at long last!) coming to him! And that's called "just desserts," and well-deserved. A eucatastrophe is something good for everybody — like rain after a drought, for instance, or a god deciding not to destroy humankind.

And eucatastrophe and deus ex machina are apples and oranges.

Since we are forbidden to discuss religion in general (and a full answer to Thorondor's responses would lead me there), I can only say this about "full" versus Tolkien's concept of "sub" creation: We have Reality, allegedly created by a God as described in somebody's holy book (or not), which is "full creation." Then one of the creatures of that creation (JRR f'rinstance) decides to write a book in which he creates fictional creatures, including the God of his subcreated world whom he calls Eru. That's what Tolkien calls subcreation. Then one of the fictional characters writes a book about other characters, and we have possibly "sub-subcreation," and this process could go on and on like so many nested Russian dolls. But the only part of it that really exists is the creature Tolkien, who belongs to Reality. The rest are nested dreams (Indian thought systems go into nested dreams and nested realities quite thoroughly, enough to boggle the mind of any unwary Western thinker). To take an overview of this entire situation is the meta (over)-view, also known as being objective.

Barley
 
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As for Gollum falling in the soup — it sure wasn't eucatastrophic for him! He simply got what was (at long last!) coming to him! And that's called "just desserts," and well-deserved. A eucatastrophe is something good for everybody — like rain after a drought, for instance, or a god deciding not to destroy humankind.
Under most, if not all, circumstances, there will always be someone who believes that what actually happened isn't the best for him/her. The Authority could think otherwise (and I could quote the letters stating that divine punishments are also divine blessings, due to the supreme inventinveness of the Creator) - but, as Pacino stated, "free will...it's a bitch" (if I may say so).
You can disagree — even with emphasis — but that doesn't make your argument correct.
Ok, let's have another go at it:
Alcuin said:
Catastrophe and Eucastrophe are the inevitable outcome of a series of events.
Tolkien stated (see my previous post) that the eucatastrophe is sudden, miraculous, cannot be counted on to occur, it does not deny the possibility of failure and it even occurs in the face of much (adverse I would say) evidence. All these descriptions refute Alcuin's statement that the eucatastrophe is inevitable - it is its uncertainty that brings about "the fleeting glimps of joy" when it actually occurs. If eucatastrophe is inevitable, then the dyscatastrophe is impossible, but this is refuted by Tolkien. It would not make for a good fairy story ;).
 
Thorondor_ said:
Under most, if not all, circumstances, there will always be someone who believes that what actually happened isn't the best for him/her. The Authority could think otherwise (and I could quote the letters stating that divine punishments are also divine blessings, due to the supreme inventinveness of the Creator) - but, as Pacino stated, "free will...it's a bitch" (if I may say so).

I prefer to take the story at face value as it presents itself. Gollum finally got what was coming to him, in spades. That's justice. The Eagles showed up at just the right times to save the day. That's deus ex machina. Ultimately, everything fell out just as Eru intended. That's Tolkien.

Barley
 
Barley, I am curious, why do you believe that "eucatastrophe is something good for everybody"? After all, this term was coined by Tolkien, and I found no such refference.
 
Thorondor_ said:
Barley, I am curious, why do you believe that "eucatastrophe is something good for everybody"? After all, this term was coined by Tolkien, and I found no such reference.

That's my understanding of how he employs the term:

Letter #89:

"... at the story of the little boy (which is a fully attested fact of course) with its apparent sad ending and then its sudden unhoped-for happy ending, I was deeply moved and had that peculiar emotion we all have – though not often. It is quite unlike any other sensation. And all of a sudden I realized what it was: the very thing that I have been trying to write about and explain – in that fairy-story essay that I so much wish you had read that I think I shall send it to you. For it I coined the word 'eucatastrophe': the sudden happy turn in a story which pierces you with a joy that brings tears [emphasis mine] (which I argued it is the highest function of fairy-stories to produce)."

If that kind of experience is not good for everybody, then I don't know what is.

Barley
 
I see; I maintain my opinion that for every event, there will be someone unhappy about it. Moreover, some people even lack the capacity to enjoy this ... joy, due to their particular sensibility. I doubt that Tolkien expected everyone to feel this emotion, seeing how even he is very surprised by the success of the Hobbit or LotR.
 
Thorondor_ said:
...I maintain my opinion that for every event, there will be someone unhappy about it. Moreover, some people even lack the capacity to enjoy this ... joy, due to their particular sensibility...
You may be correct. But in Arda, that would be attributed to the “Morgoth-element” in one who cannot or will not enjoy the happiness of another (if it is not derived from evil, as the “happiness” of a felon might be when he has first committed his crime and before he is caught or punished): jealousy, covetousness, or just plain malice.
 
Alcuin said:
You may be correct. But in Arda, that would be attributed to the “Morgoth-element” in one who cannot or will not enjoy the happiness of another (if it is not derived from evil, as the “happiness” of a felon might be when he has first committed his crime and before he is caught or punished): jealousy, covetousness, or just plain malice.
I agree - that makes very much sense.
 
Thorondor_ said:
I see; I maintain my opinion that for every event, there will be someone unhappy about it. Moreover, some people even lack the capacity to enjoy this ... joy, due to their particular sensibility. I doubt that Tolkien expected everyone to feel this emotion, seeing how even he is very surprised by the success of the Hobbit or LotR.

That may be. However, that doesn't mean that the experience wouldn't be good for them!

Barley
 

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