🧝Arwen: why i hate her

[Olorgando]

We all know that Arwen was an important businesswoman, an economist in the elf world. She took care of kingdom's finances 😎

Now seriously, idk how they could had expanded her in that movie without derailing it too much. A tv show could provide more space to explore Arwen without turning her a disjointed mess.

Just think of the numbers: by the time Elrond left Middle-earth at he end of LoTR the book, he had spent roughly 6,500 years there (he was born there and had no first-hand knowledge of Tol Eressëa or Valinor). That is simply 100 times my age. Can anyone imagine living to such an age? JRRT couldn't (he never mentions what they were doing for those thousands of years) nor can anyone else - least of all Hollywood. Book Arwen is 2,778 years old when she marries Aragorn. Liv Tyler was 26 when the last LoTR film premiered. Hollywood had her play her actual age (or possibly even less - that bunch is totally hopeless as far as female characters are concerned). Elves and the ages they reached in JRRT's legendarium are simply utterly beyond our comprehension.

 

[Ealdwyn]

Women being useless is not alright, specially since Arwen is often the poster girl. Feminism doesn't mean turning every woman a warrior though. Even the hero of the LOTR is not a warrior and he is great. The main problem with Arwen is giving interesting characterisation, and tying her to the story without making her seem random.

Arwen doesn't have any characteristion at all in LotR. It's not just that she isn't a warrior - she isn't anything! Who is she? We don't know. She might not be useless, but we have no infomation. We're told she's beautiful, but that's all. We only know her as somebody's daughter or somebody's betrothed. Even including the Appendices we know next to nothing. Arwen is mostly an unknown because Tolkien decided that her character did not merit further development.

I have no problem with that. You can't give full backstory and motivation to every minor character (and that is a separate issue than the lack of female characters in LotR). But I do have a problem with PJ making Arwen into a Big Deal, and (for example) usurping Glorfindel, who is a far more prominent character in canon, just for the sake of a 'love interest'. I think PJ said in an interview that writing out Glorfindel was a good decision because he only has a brief appearance, but you could say the same about Butterbur or Celeborn. In fact, Glorfindel is more crucial to LotR than Celeborn, so it makes absolutely no sense at all that he was written out in favour of barely-there Arwen.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Arwen doesn't have any characteristion at all in LotR. It's not just that she isn't a warrior - she isn't anything! Who is she? We don't know. She might not be useless, but we have no infomation. We're told she's beautiful, but that's all. We only know her as somebody's daughter or somebody's betrothed. Even including the Appendices we know next to nothing. Arwen is mostly an unknown because Tolkien decided that her character did not merit further development.

I have no problem with that. You can't give full backstory and motivation to every minor character (and that is a separate issue than the lack of female characters in LotR). But I do have a problem with PJ making Arwen into a Big Deal, and (for example) usurping Glorfindel, who is a far more prominent character in canon, just for the sake of a 'love interest'. I think PJ said in an interview that writing out Glorfindel was a good decision because he only has a brief appearance, but you could say the same about Butterbur or Celeborn. In fact, Glorfindel is more crucial to LotR than Celeborn, so it makes absolutely no sense at all that he was written out in favour of barely-there Arwen.

Yes, but without Celeborn, a crucial part of this would be missing

In all seriousness, I do agree with you regarding Glorfindel vs Celeborn.

 

[Olorgando]

Within the entire legendarium of M-e, reuniting the lines of Elros (Aragorn) and his brother Elrond (Arwen) is anything but trivial. But it seems to be a late development in LoTR (and never mind the entire legendarium). Galadriel also didn't exist in M-e before LoTR. This caused JRRT no end of issues in shoehorning her back into the older tales (for more details about Galadriel, just look for posts of our esteemed member @Elthir )

 

[Oromedur]

What would that be? Equality?


Quite true really.

Equality doesn’t mean that all female characters is historic literature have to copy what some see as male archetypes. There are significant characters in LOTR who do happen to do this. Why is it so wrong that Arwen isn’t Zena Warrior Princess?

It's more that Arwen doesn't actually *do* anything in LotR. It's hard to deem a character worthy when she does nothing at all.
I mean, Ioreth does more.

She represents much in the story without needing to grab a sword and shield and kill a load of orcs.

 

[Elthir]

( . . . ) Galadriel ( . . . ) Galadriel . . .

My favorite post in this thread! A bit edited here by me . . . but still

 

[GreatQueen]

Equality doesn’t mean that all female characters is historic literature have to copy what some see as male archetypes. There are significant characters in LOTR who do happen to do this. Why is it so wrong that Arwen isn’t Zena Warrior Princess?


She represents much in the story without needing to grab a sword and shield and kill a load of orcs.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Arwen should be a warrior princess, and that a woman being in the battlefield necessarily mean feminism.

Just think of the numbers: by the time Elrond left Middle-earth at he end of LoTR the book, he had spent roughly 6,500 years there (he was born there and had no first-hand knowledge of Tol Eressëa or Valinor). That is simply 100 times my age. Can anyone imagine living to such an age? JRRT couldn't (he never mentions what they were doing for those thousands of years) nor can anyone else - least of all Hollywood. Book Arwen is 2,778 years old when she marries Aragorn. Liv Tyler was 26 when the last LoTR film premiered. Hollywood had her play her actual age (or possibly even less - that bunch is totally hopeless as far as female characters are concerned). Elves and the ages they reached in JRRT's legendarium are simply utterly beyond our comprehension.

I think developing Arwen also mean expanding the LOTR world. Which other roles elves could have that would flesh out that world, and that Arwen would fit in? And how to implement it without it looking like a bad fanfiction or out of place? Could Arwen be a healer? Other role that medieval women or elves could have that wouldn't make she look vain or obtuse?

You pointed that she has centuries of age, which is another interesting point. Movies rarely make centenary people believable. Why she fell for Aragorn who mentally, is barely a child compared to her? More likely this is a point that would never be addressed as no human so old exists anyway, but this is an issue that I often ask when there's elves or vampires or similar creatures in media.

 

[Halasían]

Why is it so wrong that Arwen isn’t Zena Warrior Princess?

Never said it was "wrong". It just wasn't the way Tolkien wrote the character.
I have already wrote a screenplay tweak of the PJ FanFic that had Arwen ride south along with her two brothers and the Dunedain Rangers and took part in the Battle of Pelennor Fields.

You pointed that she has centuries of age, which is another interesting point. Movies rarely make centenary people believable. Why she fell for Aragorn who mentally, is barely a child compared to her? More likely this is a point that would never be addressed as no human so old exists anyway, but this is an issue that I often ask when there's elves or vampires or similar creatures in media.

Maybe Aragorn had other redeeming qualities she discovered about him?

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Equality doesn’t mean that all female characters is historic literature have to copy what some see as male archetypes. There are significant characters in LOTR who do happen to do this. Why is it so wrong that Arwen isn’t Zena Warrior Princess?

Totally agreeing you. After all, this is a fantasy work, shall I account for more some expert?