Did ecthelion 💀kill any 🐲dragon during fall of the gondolin?

[Turin_Turambar]

A youtuber I watched said that ecthelion killed several dragons during fall of the gondolin. is that true? Any sources or rumors?

 

[Olorgando]

First, the nature of the "dragons" that attacked Gondolin is ambiguous in every version of the story. Glaurung had been killed by Túrin by then.
Second those "dragons" were used to breach or surmount the defensive walls of Gondolin, but did little to nothing after that, entering the city being left to others.
Third, Ecthelion most likely stayed close to Turgon during the siege of Gondolin, and thus would never have come near any of these "dragons". At any rate, his deed of glory was killing Gothmog, lord of Balrogs, with the help of the fountain just in front of Turgon's tower.

BTW YouTube rates well below any dedicated JRRT site in terms of believeability.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

First, the nature of the "dragons" that attacked Gondolin is ambiguous in every version of the story. Glaurung had been killed by Túrin by then.
Second those "dragons" were used to breach or surmount the defensive walls of Gondolin, but did little to nothing after that, entering the city being left to others.
Third, Ecthelion most likely stayed close to Turgon during the siege of Gondolin, and thus would never have come near any of these "dragons". At any rate, his deed of glory was killing Gothmog, lord of Balrogs, with the help of the fountain just in front of Turgon's tower.

BTW YouTube rates well below any dedicated JRRT site in terms of believeability.

So, weren't there any dragons that entered the city, except for the dragons that broke through the walls in the gondolin attack?

 

[Olorgando]

No "dragons" entered the city nearly as far as the fountain in front of Turgon's tower. Nor did Ecthelion stray from Turgon's side nearly far enough to encounter any "dragon". Ecthelion slaying "real" (in the terms of JRRT's legendarium) dragons like Glaurung is pretty much in the realm of fanfic.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

No "dragons" entered the city nearly as far as the fountain in front of Turgon's tower. Nor did Ecthelion stray from Turgon's side nearly far enough to encounter any "dragon". Ecthelion slaying "real" (in the terms of JRRT's legendarium) dragons like Glaurung is pretty much in the realm of fanfic.

turn on the subtitle. change the subtitle to english and stop it at 11:00 seconds. you will see it there. he says he killed a few dragons.

 

[Olorgando]

Ecthelion, everything on YouTube (or anywhere else in the Internet, and in books, for that matter) is fanfic at best unless substantiated by JRRT's own writing, or at least that of his son Christopher.

 

[Elthir]

A youtuber I watched said that ecthelion killed several dragons during fall of the gondolin. is that true? Any sources or rumors?

A) generally speaking, in my opinion using the very very very early Fall of Gondolin as a source is problematic, especially when it comes to Balrogs and Dragons, and decades later in the early 1950s, Tolkien wrote a new, updated version, but the story basically ends when Tuor comes to Gondolin.

I once did a close-ish comparison (of a section) of the early Fall of Gondolin with the early 1950s version -- and there were changes both small and notable in the 50s update, not to mention the description of the Gates (1950s version) and the style of writing!

2) even in the very early version, as I read the tale anyway, Ecthelion does not slay a dragon.

Turgon held Ecthelion and his folk in reserve -- and when they appear they slay many orks -- then "one of those brazen snakes" heaves against a wall and breaks it, "and behind comes a creature of fire and Balrogs upon it" -- Tuor is there and gathers his guard and the folk of the Arch and the Swallow, while Ecthelion rallies the folk of the Fountain . . .

. . . the Orks take heart at the coming of the drakes, and they mingle with the Balrogs that pour into the breach -- Tuor and Ecthelion slay orks and Balrogs, and Ecthelion is ultimately wounded (by a Balrog whip to the arm) "and his shield fell to earth even as that dragon of fire drew nigh amid the ruin of the walls"

Tuor hews at the foot of the creature and lifts Ecthelion, saving him from the drake -- Tuor takes Ecthelion to the fountain, and after Ecthelion revives from a swoon, he ultimately takes on Gothmog and they both perish.

F) was Tolkien going to rewrite the battle the same way?

All we know for sure is that in the 1950s Fall of Gondolin, Ecthelion's helm is described as having a spike of steel pointed with a diamond, which in my opinion anyway, suggests that Ecthelion was at least going to spike Gothmog with his helm, as he'd done in the early version.

The external evolution of Balrogs and Dragons is another matter which could easily impact the tale here, but again and sadly, after The Hobbit had been published, and The Lord of the Rings had been written (but not wholly "finished" and not yet published), JRRT never got past Tuor reaching the city with respect to the long prose Fall of Gondolin.

Just for example, if Tolkien intended to drastically reduce Balrog numbers (which is at least suggested by a later marginal note and a revision to a passage in Silmarillion writings), and if Balrogs were to become Maiar -- which they did become -- how would that have affected the revised tale of Gondolin's fall?

No one knows for sure . . . but I'm guessing it would have altered at least some aspects.

Or something.

And 🐾

 

[Turin_Turambar]

A) generally speaking, in my opinion using the very very very early Fall of Gondolin as a source is problematic, especially when it comes to Balrogs and Dragons, and decades later in the early 1950s, Tolkien wrote a new, updated version, but the story basically ends when Tuor comes to Gondolin.

I once did a close-ish comparison (of a section) of the early Fall of Gondolin with the early 1950s version -- and there were changes both small and notable in the 50s update, not to mention the description of the Gates (1950s version) and the style of writing!

2) even in the very early version, as I read the tale anyway, Ecthelion does not slay a dragon.

Turgon held Ecthelion and his folk in reserve -- and when they appear they slay many orks -- then "one of those brazen snakes" heaves against a wall and breaks it, "and behind comes a creature of fire and Balrogs upon it" -- Tuor is there and gathers his guard and the folk of the Arch and the Swallow, while Ecthelion rallies the folk of the Fountain . . .

. . . the Orks take heart at the coming of the drakes, and they mingle with the Balrogs that pour into the breach -- Tuor and Ecthelion slay orks and Balrogs, and Ecthelion is ultimately wounded "and his shield fell to earth even as that dragon of fire drew nigh amid the ruin of the walls"

Tuor hews at the foot of the creature and lifts Ecthelion, saving him from the drake -- Tuor takes the swooned Ecthelion to the fountain, and after Ecthelion revives, he takes on Gothmog and they both perish.

F) was Tolkien going to rewrite the battle the same way?

All we know for sure is that in the 1950s Fall of Gondolin, Ecthelion's helm is described as having a spike of steel pointed with a diamond, which in my opinion anyway, suggests that Ecthelion was at least going to spike Gothmog with his helm, as he'd done in the early version.

The external evolution of Balrogs and Dragons is another matter which could easily impact the tale here, but again and sadly, after The Hobbit had been published, and The Lord of the Rings had been written (but not wholly "finished" and not yet published), JRRT never got past Tuor reaching the city with respect to the long prose Fall of Gondolin.

Just for example, if Tolkien intended to drastically reduce Balrog numbers (which is at least suggested by a later marginal note and a revision to a passage in Silmarillion writings), and if Balrogs were to become Maiar -- which they did become -- how would that have affected the revised tale of Gondolin's fall?

No one knows for sure . . . but I'm guessing it would have altered at least some aspects.

Or something.

And 🐾

Someone on youtube said now that ecthelion may have killed the iron dragons that morgoth used specifically to attack the city. is that true?

 

[Olorgando]

Someone on youtube said now that ecthelion may have killed the iron dragons that morgoth used specifically to attack the city. is that true?

Did they provide any sources?
JRRT himself published nothing on the First Age (aside from a few vague allusions in "The Hobbit") during his lifetime. So any such claim would need to be backed up by a quote from one of Christopher Tolkien's many books. Otherwise it is nothing but fan-fiction.

 

[Elthir]

For myself, I don't know that "iron dragons" are necessarily a feature of Middle-earth. For example, a feature of JRRT's early writing was that the Elves were about as tall as mortal children, and that they reincarnated by being born again into their children -- both these ideas were later dropped.

In any case, in my last post I summed up Ecthelion's participation in the battle of Gondolin -- he was saved from a dragon by Tuor, but as I read the text, he did not kill a dragon of any kind.

So who to believe? Someone on Youtube or someone else on the internets?

 

[Akhôrahil]

Someone on youtube said now that ecthelion may have killed the iron dragons that morgoth used specifically to attack the city. is that true?

No. It is not true. It is pure speculation made by this person in youtube. Are you the anonymous user that changed the Ecthelion page in Tolkien Gateway and inserted that Ecthelion killed dragons? Please do not change any pages on Tolkien Gateway before you habe read the books dritten by J.R.R. Tolkien and before you know which books contain earlier versions of stories that were changed and replaced by later versions.

 

[Elthir]

About the metal "dragons" -- in BLT II Christopher Tolkien notes that in the Silmarillion (meaning the constructed version published in 1977), the dragons that came against Gondolin were of the "brood of Glaurung" which "were become now many and terrible."

I don't think Glaurung was even part metal

But that said, so far I can't find a Tolkien-written source for this, and it might be an editorial addition based on Glaurung being the father of dragons.

Once again, alas for the unfinished Fall of Gondolin in the early 1950s.

And I blame Milton Waldman for this unfinishing


Anyway, in the end of QS (never fully updated by JRRT), the flying dragons at the War of Wrath were: "like a great roar of thunder, and a tempest of fire, and their wings were of steel."

And I don't think Smaug had steel wings, so that much is settled in my opinion

 

[Alcuin]

About the metal "dragons"...

From The Fall of Gondolin, “The Original Tale”,

Then on a time Melko assembled all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought a host of monsters… Some were all of iron so cunningly linked that they might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, and these were filled in their innermost depths with the grimmest of the Orcs…; others were of bronze and copper were given hearts and spirits of blazing fire, and they blasted … with their snorting or trampled…; yet others were … of pure flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal…, and upon these rode the Balrogs in hundreds…
​

Early version of the telling.

 

[Elthir]

Thanks Alcuin. Yes I was too lazy to describe them here.

And given Christopher Tolkien's description for the Fall of Gondolin [short prose version for the 1977 Quenta Silmarillion) -- which I think, so far, seems to be an editorial description -- I wonder if Glaurung being the "father of Dragons" is enough to think that the early metal versions (and/or the pure flame version) were certainly abandoned?

I wonder. I'm starting to warm to the idea (pun intended), at least, that maybe some sort of other type of "dragon" survived into the post-Lord of the Rings Middle-earth . . .

. . . but that said, what can we make of the silence here?

 

[Alcuin]

...maybe some sort of other type of "dragon" survived into the post-Lord of the Rings Middle-earth...

Besides fire-breathing dragons like Smaug, there were cold-drakes in the Grey Mountains and Northern Wastes. One of these killed Dain I along with his son Frór, after which Thrór (father of Thráin II father of Thorin II Oakenshield) departed the Grey Mountains and returned to Erebor, the Lonely Mountain. I suppose a “cold-drake” didn’t breath fire, but that’s only a supposition. And as you say, Elthir, dragons originally did not fly; at least, they lacked wings, so that if they flew, they flew as Chinese loong (龍). Scatha the Worm, slain by Fram of the Éothéod, ancestor of Eorl the Young, seems to have been a cold-drake.

Smaug was unquestionably a flying fire-drake, and while no doubt smaller than Ancalagon, he was mighty fierce: “chiefest of calamities,” as Bilbo called him. Much later, Chrysophylax Dives (“Chrysophylax the Rich”) was also a flying, fire-breathing dragon, “tamed” by Farmer Giles of Ham through his use (and misuse) of the sword Caudimordax (“Tailbiter” in the vulgar), so it seems some drakes survived into the times of late Romano-Britain or early Anglo-Saxon days in the wilds of what is now northern Wales.

As an aside, in researching this, I discovered that a “gliding neodiapsid” (diapsids have two holes in their skulls behind the eyes and include crocodilians, lizards, snakes, tuatara, turtles, and birds) of the Permian period (300–250 million years ago) designated Glaurung schneideri in 2015 by V.V. Bulanov and A.G. Sennikov in honor of its discoverer, Thomas Schneider, who found the fossil in 2002, and Tolkien’s monster Glaurung. There is also a fossil carnivorous mammal from the Paleocene (63–60 million years ago) named Ankalagon saurognathus, and a worm from over 500 million years ago designated Ancalagon minor.

 

[Elthir]

By "dragon" I meant something more like the things in the early Fall of Gondolin.

My post above was more of an external musing regarding whether or not these types of "dragons" -- metal, and flame "ropes" -- survived (as in not abandoned by JRRT) into the world of Middle-earth.

Anyway, if the Silmarillion description is truly an editorial addition by Christopher Tolkien, I'm guessing he at least assumed readers in 1977 would think of something more traditional, a "fleshy" beast of some kind.

🐾

 

[Alcuin]

By "dragon" I meant something more like the things in the early Fall of Gondolin.

[Did] these types of "dragons" -- metal, and flame "ropes" -- survive...

[I]f the Silmarillion description is truly an editorial addition by Christopher Tolkien, I'm guessing he at least assumed readers in 1977 would think of something more traditional, a "fleshy" beast of some kind.

I doubt any “metal” dragons survived into Christopher Tolkien’s edition of Silmarillion. In “The Fall of Gondolin”, CJRT and his co-author Guy Gavriel Kay wrote,

​

Morgoth … loosed upon Gondolin his Balrogs, and his Orcs, and his wolves; and with them came dragons of the brood of Glaurung, and they were become now many and terrible.​

​

That sounds to me as if the enchanted metal dragons of iron, copper, bronze, and motel molten* metal were displaced in the telling by flesh-and-blood dragons that were fire-breathing but flightless. Note also that in the earlier description that there were “hundreds” of Balrogs, but later there were perhaps as few as seven. So the telling of the tale changed over the decades. I don’t believe this was CJRT’s alteration but rather his father’s.

(Perhaps the earlier telling is a mixed Elven-Dúnedain tradition and the later a Mannish tradition?)

* "motel" is a proper English word: spellcheck missed it. I guess motel metal can come and go, check in and out.

 

[Elthir]

I don’t believe this was CJRT’s alteration but rather his father’s.

If so, I can't think of a Gondolin-specific source. CJRT points to the constructed Silmarillion, but I can't find any text from JRRT here. So far.

(Perhaps the earlier telling is a mixed Elven-Dúnedain tradition and the later a Mannish tradition?)

Ouch! Okay I deserved that