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Help with translation for anniversary gift

RexGalore

New Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2022
Messages
19
Hi all,
New here and would like som help with a translation. Nerd but sadly not a linguist, so feel a bit stuck.
I would like to have “This love will rage on” in Tengwar.

[pointless backstory]
My wife is a huge LOTR fan, especially of the movies which she saw 13 times each in the cinema. The books she has only read 2-3 times.

For our honeymoon we spent 5 weeks traveling around New Zeeland. Where we saw many of the filming locations; rode horses through Lothlorien and by the fields of Orthanc, trekked around the base of mount doom, saw hobbit hideaway, visited Hobbiton (on Valentine’s Day no less) and of course visited Weta Workshops. We were extremely lucky there, we took an early tour and ended up only us two and the guide, which he had never had happen before. So we got to ask a lot of questions.

We, as many couples, have a song that is “ours”, it is “Love Rage On” By Nizlopi.
For our wedding I suggested we would have that song play when we walked out after the ceremony. Unbeknownst to me she had already, during her bachelorette party, painted a small painting with the refrain from that song. So on our wedding ceremony we had the song and during the dinner I was presented with a painting with that song on, which now hangs in our bedroom.

Now we are coming up on 9th anniversary and I had the idea to present her with a gift where I combine these two: a gift with the same refrain, “This love will rage on” but in Tengwar on it.

[/pointless backstory]

I have tried to read up on it but not easy I’d say. I see two paths.
  1. English transcribed to Tengwar
  2. English translated to Sindarin then written in Tengwar
I don’t know which of this would be “best”, if there even is such a thing. But also probably more interested which looks the most beautiful.

For 1) I have tried to read up on the different modes but can’t say I’m sure which is most accurate. Usually get to something like this:
Screenshot 2022-11-21 at 13.12.14.png


For 2) I have tried finding Sindarin dictionaries and gotten some of the words, but then comes the issue of grammar…
This = Sen, Love = meleth, will = atha-, (to) rage = ruthra- and can’t find “on”, but looked for similar words to maybe rewrite to “This love will continue/remain/endure/persist to rage”.
But from what I can tell atha should be appended to the end of the word that it describes will do something (and maybe rutar to). But should that then be rage or some other word in the sentence?

Any help with 1 and/or 2 would be greatly appreciated!
 
Hello RexGalore: Welcome aboard. We're glad to see you here with us.

I'm sure one of our more expert Elvish Language members will assist you soon. There are a few lurking about. Ent is not one of them though.
Hope you'll enjoy our Forum, and point your Wife to it as well. There's everything Tolkien available in our Forums, Wikis and members.

Thank you for the back story. (You'll find we don't think any Tolkienish 'back story' is pointless.)
 
Hi all,
New here and would like som help with a translation. Nerd but sadly not a linguist, so feel a bit stuck.
I would like to have “This love will rage on” in Tengwar.
Greetings! Glad to have you with us!

I should be able to offer some help. In Sindarin 'This Love will rage on' is "Sen melatha ruthra bo" as I can find it. Sen being This, Mel being the prefix for love, and atha as will(future) ruthra is as you accurately pointed out the word for 'rage' in the sense of persisting and not anger. and bo is on.

Transcribed that would be:

Anniversary elvish.png


Let me know if I can help in any other way.

Hope this meets satisfaction,

Elbereth Vala Varda
 
Greetings! Glad to have you with us!

I should be able to offer some help. In Sindarin 'This Love will rage on' is "Sen melatha ruthra bo" as I can find it. Sen being This, Mel being the prefix for love, and atha as will(future) ruthra is as you accurately pointed out the word for 'rage' in the sense of persisting and not anger. and bo is on.

Transcribed that would be:

View attachment 20220

Let me know if I can help in any other way.

Hope this meets satisfaction,

Elbereth Vala Varda
Wow! That was quick and amazing!
As I had guessed, I would never have gotten that grammar correct.

It more than meets satisfaction. 😍
 
On a side note, love can also be Veleth. I can do a transcription of that too if you would like.
If you have the time and energy it would of course be appreciated!

Is there any difference in meaning of love between meleth and veleth? Or are they interchangeable synonyms?
In that case it's more a question of which looks the most pleasing.

Bonus picture of a happy Rex in Hobbiton!
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot 2022-11-22 at 18.56.32.png
    Screenshot 2022-11-22 at 18.56.32.png
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Hi all,
New here and would like som help with a translation. Nerd but sadly not a linguist, so feel a bit stuck.
I would like to have “This love will rage on” in Tengwar.

[pointless backstory]
My wife is a huge LOTR fan, especially of the movies which she saw 13 times each in the cinema. The books she has only read 2-3 times.

For our honeymoon we spent 5 weeks traveling around New Zeeland. Where we saw many of the filming locations; rode horses through Lothlorien and by the fields of Orthanc, trekked around the base of mount doom, saw hobbit hideaway, visited Hobbiton (on Valentine’s Day no less) and of course visited Weta Workshops. We were extremely lucky there, we took an early tour and ended up only us two and the guide, which he had never had happen before. So we got to ask a lot of questions.

We, as many couples, have a song that is “ours”, it is “Love Rage On” By Nizlopi.
For our wedding I suggested we would have that song play when we walked out after the ceremony. Unbeknownst to me she had already, during her bachelorette party, painted a small painting with the refrain from that song. So on our wedding ceremony we had the song and during the dinner I was presented with a painting with that song on, which now hangs in our bedroom.

Now we are coming up on 9th anniversary and I had the idea to present her with a gift where I combine these two: a gift with the same refrain, “This love will rage on” but in Tengwar on it.

[/pointless backstory]

I have tried to read up on it but not easy I’d say. I see two paths.
  1. English transcribed to Tengwar
  2. English translated to Sindarin then written in Tengwar
I don’t know which of this would be “best”, if there even is such a thing. But also probably more interested which looks the most beautiful.

For 1) I have tried to read up on the different modes but can’t say I’m sure which is most accurate. Usually get to something like this:
View attachment 20214

For 2) I have tried finding Sindarin dictionaries and gotten some of the words, but then comes the issue of grammar…
This = Sen, Love = meleth, will = atha-, (to) rage = ruthra- and can’t find “on”, but looked for similar words to maybe rewrite to “This love will continue/remain/endure/persist to rage”.
But from what I can tell atha should be appended to the end of the word that it describes will do something (and maybe rutar to). But should that then be rage or some other word in the sentence?

Any help with 1 and/or 2 would be greatly appreciated!

Just popping in to say welcome and thank you for sharing this completely NOT pointless backstory of you and your wife. 😍 It's sweet and awesome and inspiring and I hope you have a great 9th anniversary!

(I had a great honeymoon so I can't complain, but an LOTR-themed trip as you described sounds AMAZING.)
 
Is there any difference in meaning of love between meleth and veleth? Or are they interchangeable synonyms?

Hello! The word folks use for love is meleth, but in Sindarin (as in Welsh for example) we find various consonant mutations based on various factors.

For a Tolkienian example: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! The word here is medui "last" but in this "environment" (skipping over a longer story about what triggers this type of mutation here) m becomes v.
 
Last edited:
Hello! The word folks use for love is meleth, but in Sindarin (as in Welsh for example) we find various consonant mutations based on various factors.

For a Tolkienian example: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! The word here is medui "last" but in this "environment" (skipping over a longer story about what triggers this type of mutation here) m becomes v.
Thank you for further insight!

Happened to catch your reply before you edited it, even though you say you are no expert it much seems like it. It was very informative and interesting with the extra details.
 
Happened to catch your reply before you edited it, even though you say you are no expert it much seems like it. It was very informative and interesting with the extra details.

Sorry about that. I wasn't wholly sure about one of those [now edited] details in the original version, and given my limited time (at the time), I decided to "burn" half that post, just in case.

:)
 
Greetings! Glad to have you with us!

I should be able to offer some help. In Sindarin 'This Love will rage on' is "Sen melatha ruthra bo" as I can find it. Sen being This, Mel being the prefix for love, and atha as will(future) ruthra is as you accurately pointed out the word for 'rage' in the sense of persisting and not anger. and bo is on.

Transcribed that would be:

View attachment 20220

Let me know if I can help in any other way.

Hope this meets satisfaction,

Elbereth Vala Varda
I am not a Sindarin expert, Quenya is my area of expertise, but I am pretty sure "Sen melatha ruthra bo" is incorrect, in many ways (e.g. the future suffix would go on "rage" and not on "love", the demonstrative pronoun sen follows the noun in Sindarin, "ruthra bo" as a phrasal verb "rage on" is a word for word translation of the English and makes no sense in Sindarin).
I'd suggest the OP wait until someone with a strong Sindarin knowledge comes along and offers a reliable translation before it is committed to something permanent - or rather go with a direct transcription of the English original.
 
Sorry about that. I wasn't wholly sure about one of those [now edited] details in the original version, and given my limited time (at the time), I decided to "burn" half that post, just in case.

:)
No worries.

But you sounded like you made sense and knew what you were talking about.
I can admit that I hedged my bets and asked on another site as well. There I got an answer very much like yours regarding "this love". They also said that the correct form would be "I veleth hen". So you should feel vindicated. 😀
 
I am not a Sindarin expert, Quenya is my area of expertise, but I am pretty sure "Sen melatha ruthra bo" is incorrect, in many ways (e.g. the future suffix would go on "rage" and not on "love", the demonstrative pronoun sen follows the noun in Sindarin, "ruthra bo" as a phrasal verb "rage on" is a word for word translation of the English and makes no sense in Sindarin).
I'd suggest the OP wait until someone with a strong Sindarin knowledge comes along and offers a reliable translation before it is committed to something permanent - or rather go with a direct transcription of the English original.
Thank you for feedback!
As I said in the post above, I hedged my bets and asked elsewhere also. There I got this suggestion:
I-veleth hen bronatha rúthad.​
"This love will continue to rage."​

He puts the future suffix on continue, not rage. But feels like this could be correct because "will continue" and then rage after that.

For rúthad instead of base form ruthra he said:
I am not using "ruthra-" because it is an etymological anomaly, and such words Tolkien often abandoned after a second look. I instead employed the "CV̄Ca-" formation by Tolkien, as it is the safest option for this root, √(U)RUTᴴ, thus forming *rútha- "to rage"​

So feels like this might be more grammatically correct.
Any thoughts and feedback?
 
Thank you for feedback!
As I said in the post above, I hedged my bets and asked elsewhere also. There I got this suggestion:
I-veleth hen bronatha rúthad.​
"This love will continue to rage."​

He puts the future suffix on continue, not rage. But feels like this could be correct because "will continue" and then rage after that.

For rúthad instead of base form ruthra he said:
I am not using "ruthra-" because it is an etymological anomaly, and such words Tolkien often abandoned after a second look. I instead employed the "CV̄Ca-" formation by Tolkien, as it is the safest option for this root, √(U)RUTᴴ, thus forming *rútha- "to rage"​

So feels like this might be more grammatically correct.
Any thoughts and feedback?
Yes, the translation and the reasoning looks absolutely solid.
 
I am not a Sindarin expert, Quenya is my area of expertise, but I am pretty sure "Sen melatha ruthra bo" is incorrect, in many ways (e.g. the future suffix would go on "rage" and not on "love", the demonstrative pronoun sen follows the noun in Sindarin, "ruthra bo" as a phrasal verb "rage on" is a word for word translation of the English and makes no sense in Sindarin).
I'd suggest the OP wait until someone with a strong Sindarin knowledge comes along and offers a reliable translation before it is committed to something permanent - or rather go with a direct transcription of the English original.
Quenya is my expertise also. Always glad when someone can help, I just try to fill in for those that are not present. I figured this would get to Gilruin and others, and you all could clear up any minor mistakes.
 
No worries. (. . .) They also said that the correct form would be "I veleth hen". So you should feel vindicated. 😀

Ahh good memory! Yes, so far I feel better!

And now I'm wondering who posted that response elsewhere :)
 
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