How fast can a 💀Nazgul fly.?

[Vorondil]

In The Two Towers, Gandalf says that: ''It is two-hundred leagues or more in straight flight from Barad-Dur to Orthanc, and even a Nazgul would take a few hours to fly between them.'' I measured on the map, and it's about 590 miles between Barad-Dur and Orthanc, so if it flew that distance in 3 hours, it would give it a speed of around 196 miles per hour. Is that right?

 

[Deimos]

I dunno. That's why I'm going to review the full scope of things.

but I must say though it may well be my conclusion matches yours when I've reviewed it all more closely, given the description of the internal events of the Mountain, my biggest surprise is still the lack of a fricasseed Frodo and scalded Sam. It was far more than just 'hot' in there.

I believe that's why Gwaihir would have been willing to take Gandalf there and blast them into the pit, hoping for a singed Sam snack into the bargain.

Not getting burned to death, that I will agree with... they should have.***
Maybe JRRT didn't know just how hot that ash is, or if he did he ignored it because he had to have Sam and Frodo survive.
So he fudges on one factor that he cannot allow... but he stays on track with the the rest of the account.
Consider too the volcano itself and Sam's and Frodo's physical condition:

It's a stratovolcano (aka composite volcano). The lower slopes are 6-10 degrees. The upper slopes near the cone (and so above the SN doorway) can be as steep as 3o degrees.
Both Hobbits are physically and emotionally exhausted. They stinted themselves on water (Sam especially) and ascended that 6-10 degree slope at a crawl.
Sam even carried Frodo partway.
Frodo fought with Gollum on the way up. Yes, he had super human strength from the Ring but that has to come from somewhere. That is, it's like using "uppers"... it helps you in the short term but it takes a toll on your body.
Then there's the whole to-do inside. More emotion ( can you imagine Sam's shock when he hears Frodo say, "the ring is mine" and puts it on?), more physical exertion.
Sam watches the fall of B-D after carrying Frodo (again) outside. How long did B-D take to fall?
But as I said it's the 2+ mile walk DOWN the slope that would take the most time.

Anyone who has hiked hills know that it's the downhill that is the most treacherous and must be taken with great care (And Tolkien was a walker).
Your knees are at high risk on a down hill. ( I hiked the Grand Canyon "rim-to-rim" at age 60. I know both steep downhill and steep uphill very well 😉)

So you have two exhausted people, carefully scrabbling down (on average) 8 degree slope with no path amidst heaps of broken solidified lave, in very hot, choking air, burning ash and debris raining down on them, the ground shaking and heaving under their feet.... for over 2 miles.
Try walking down a 8 degrees sloped hill covered wiith jagged rocks, in clean air, when your not exhausted and parched, and the ground is not rolling beneath your feet, and it's not hot , and it's more than 2 miles to your destination.... I bet it takes you longer than 30 minutes...quite a bit longer.

Also, Frodo, tho' he looked like a hobbit just out of his 'tweens (33) he was actually 50.
An we know From Bilbo's appearance that once you give up the ring you age naturally.
But even while owning it the person still "ages", it just doesn't show (the ring being a supernatural "upper").
Bilbo told Gandalf , "I'm old. I know I don't look it, but I'm beginning to feel it... all stretched and thin... that can't be right."
So now Frodo no longer possesses the Ring, and his true age is catching up with him; a middle aged exhausted, injured guy trying to cover over 2 miles downhill of blasted terrain in a firestorm. No 30 minute jaunt, that.

*** A reddit post reminded me of something very important in all of the Mt Doom happenings to Sam and Frodo, indeed throughout LOTR.
There was a good supernatural power at work....Sam and Frodo were protected.
"Protected" doesn't mean that they would not have to expend nearly all their life force to accomplish the quest. (Eru has his own plans and he plays close to the vest). It means that where supernatural help was necessary, where human nature would fail, help was provided.
So maybe an orc would perish in the S-N or during eruption and rain of fire and ash.
Sam and Frodo should have died, but they didn't because some other power was at work, protecting them.

 

[Ent]

It was far more than just 'hot' in there.

I think I'm going to start another thread.
Maybe our mathemeticians can work it out for me.

Given the heat in Mt. Doom exceeds the greatest heat generated by the greatest of dragons, and only its heat could destroy the One Ring, what heat would that be?

Then, given there was enough heat the 'walls were melting,' what temperature would that have required?

Then, at what temperature does a Holbytlan body need to be to bake, fry, or explode into flame?

Followed by given all that, how far must Frodo and Sam have been from the same heat melting the walls, assuming that was sufficient heat to cause them to bake, fry or explode, to have survived?

Thus... if we ASSUME the heat melting the walls was ONLY near the walls, the entire cavern didn't act like a huge bake-oven, and Frodo and Sam were able to 'escape' due to some 'distance' from the localized heat up against the walls only, how big is the entire cavern itself?

Should be a few simple calculations. (They would, of course, require several assumptions to be made on several points regarding the variables...those assumptions should be cited.)

Meanwhile to me it still remains a bit of a big plot hole.

One assumes they were standing roughly where Sauron was when he forged the ring to begin with, so clearly he was also able to survive... but one must also assume the mountain was somehow engaged to be at a higher temperature than just its 'normal' temperature during his forging. Yet its walls did not melt then, nor did it crumble and blow up and so forth... but still... one wonders at Sauron's marvelous accomplshment as well.

Anyway, the whole heat thing is difficult for this Ent's brain to wrap itself around...other than an 'oops' of some sort.

I'd love a reasonable answer to help settle my twigs on the issue.

 

[Ent]

I bet it takes you longer than 30 minutes.

thank you for working on this while I was working on mine.
your suggestion that Tolkien just ignored the facts is the only one I've been able to come up with regarding the heat as well.

I'll confirm 'the rest of the story' when I get a little time... (you know me, I gotta 'see it for myself' before I accept others' presentations... though I'm ever thankful for the presentations..!)

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

It would seem that for once, Lestrade is on the right track.

ooooo ... that's a low blow, that is.

Oh no! A Scotland Yard joke! But I best not say more lest you trade me a worse one. *Coughs*

 

[Deimos]

I'd love a reasonable answer to help settle my twigs on the issue.

I've provided one... I added a foottnote *** to my post.
It's consistent with Tolkien's weltanschauung, and there is precedent in other parts of LOTR.
I'm running with this explanation.

 

[Ent]

It means that where supernatural help was necessary, where human nature would fail, help was provided.

Indeed, this is 'Providence'...what many others lacking understanding of call 'intervention,' not realizing when it actually occurs rather than when it SEEMS to occur.

The actuality is Providence. The 'seeming' of it results in the errant 'intervention.'

It is, of course, the only explanation.
It is also one of Tolkien's three (3) keynotes of his work underlying the whole...Providence demonstrated (and at times directly spoken to) in his writing again, and again, and again. from the beginning of SIL through the end of LoTR.

These 3 keynotes are the subject of the Appendix I've written for the book coming out in January, and are the keynotes of the book I will be writing soon myself.

I'm thankful it was recognized, and has now been stated.
But it will not be discussed here, due to its potential for exactly what the posts "in that other thread" are steering toward.... potential conflict.

 

[Deimos]

Indeed, this is 'Providence'...what many others lacking understanding of call 'intervention,' not realizing when it actually occurs rather than when it SEEMS to occur.

The actuality is Providence. The 'seeming' of it results in the errant 'intervention.'

It is, of course, the only explanation.
It is also one of Tolkien's three (3) keynotes of his work underlying the whole...

These 3 keynotes are the subject of the Appendix I've written for the book coming out in January, and are the keynotes of the book I will be writing soon myself.

I'm thankful it was recognized, and has now been stated.

Something occurred to me on my 2nd reading of LOTR (which was 2001).
Sam and Frodo never should have survived the trek across the Gorgoroth Plateau.
The Lembas helped but they simply did not have enough water to sustain a normal person (much less two) on a 40 mile trek in hot, ashy air, and then a few thousand feet up a mountain, and THEN in the blistering hot Sammath Naur.
It wasn't possible. So Providence intervened there also.

 

[Ent]

So Providence intervened there also.

Indeed. Feel free to feed me any examples of 'providence' you find.
They are legion... when one gets a look at the book, one will be wondering many things.

For many of them we need to look at the actual syntax Tolkien chose to express his statements...words used in a way clearly indicating the 'event' or 'circumstance' comes from an external source, rather than from the person themselves.

For example... the compassion 'suddenly welling up within' Bilbo, preventing him from killing Gollum... the very structure of the language tells us the impulse is NOT from Bilbo himself...

It is Providence providing him an answer to the internal conflict he is having about what to do about Gollum so he can get past him.

Then again... 'leaping without thought' over Gollum . another external impulse - Providence... settling the internal conflict he's having without him even being aware it is being done.

Yet again, these are all Providence... NOT 'intervention' as those who don't understand the difference between the two fail to grasp.

There are literally thousands.

This is what Tolkien meant when he wrote in his letter "Working on LoTR is laborious, as I am considering EVERY WORD carefully."

Just as he considered every word, so must we.

For one final peek at Providence and Tolkiens words, let's consider the collapse of Mordor, the shadow spreading up into the sky and reaching a 'threatening' if powerless hand out. All who are present can see this. Many have even stopped fighting and are fully attentive.

No mention of a wind has yet been made.

Yet a 'great wind' (or is it 'strong wind') suddenly comes up and blows the shadow away into nothingness.

What providence. All can see this particular threat is ended. They can tell 'it is done'. They are given visible hope and encouragement into the moment. It cannot be mistaken or ignored by either those defending the free peoples, or those who EVEN YET choose to fight.

The Providence to those who choose to continue to fight is also clear... "Folks, here is another 'chance to repent'. you have the opportunity. What say you?" Of course, some do. Others don't.

And we're back to the 2nd of Tolkien's 3 keynotes throughout all his works. Choice.

So now you see Providence, and Choice.

I await you for the 3rd.

 

[Deimos]

Indeed. Feel free to feed me any examples of 'providence' you find.
course, some do. Others don't.

And we're back to the 2nd of Tolkien's 3 keynotes throughout all his works. Choice.

So now you see Providence, and Choice.

I await you for the 3rd.

Not sure... redemption?

 

[Olorgando]

Whatever he was, JRRT was not a volcanologist. Nor am I professionally, though I may have picked up the odd bit of information by a lot of watching of documentaries, and by reading on the subject, that even a professional volcanologist in the first half of the 20th century would not have known.

Deimos mentioned Mount St Helens and stratovolcanoes. Mount St Helens blew up, yes, as did Mount Pinatubo in 1991, Vesuvius in 79, and the ultimate blast in recorded history, the 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora on Sumbawa Island in Indonesia. Not a snowball’s chance in Angband surviving that, for miles around due to pyroclastic flows, never mind up close. But stratovolcanoes have alternating ash explosions and lava flow incidents, even if the latter are not as “gentle” as common lava flows in the Hawaiian Islands – or rather now only on the big island giving the archipelago its name, these being shield volcanoes.

But stratovolcanoes (composite volcanoes) appear to be quite steep, at 30-35 degrees, compared to 5-10 degrees for shield volcanoes. So if Mount Doom had the slope steepness Deimos assumes … erm .. was it a composite-composite volcano? A shield-composite volcano? Most likely, I would guess, a “needs-to-fit-the-story” volcano. That bit about the cloud extending all the way to Rohan, but apparently without any noticeable ash rain … erm. The bit about how close the three Hobbits were to the lave below is another issue. Whenever volcanologists get somewhat close to the danger zone, they usually wear silver-colored heat-protective special gear – and also, like fire-fighters, an oxygen supply due to the poisonous gases. JRRT does not state how close the three came to the lava … PJ’s having Frodo hang by one hand above it is another case of total duh!

Perhaps the case of Stromboli, located on the Italian island of the same name, fits the picture as far as Frodo and Sam’s survival best. It is constantly active with minor eruptions, and the 500 inhabitants of the island don’t seem to get excited by most of the eruptions. Perhaps not spectacular enough for the dramatic needs of JRRT the writer. I’m not even going to start about PJ’s blockbuster “visions”. He would possibly have complained that even Mount Tambora could use some “jazzing up”.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Not sure... redemption?

I was thinking along those lines. Grace, as well. Maybe that falls into Providence, though.

Unless it's Faith (from a prior discussion I've had with Ent 😉)!

 

[Deimos]

Whatever he was, JRRT was not a volcanologist. Nor am I professionally, though I may have picked up the odd bit of information by a lot of watching of documentaries, and by reading on the subject, that even a professional volcanologist in the first half of the 20th century would not have known.

Deimos mentioned Mount St Helens and stratovolcanoes. Mount St Helens blew up, yes, as did Mount Pinatubo in 1991, Vesuvius in 79, and the ultimate blast in recorded history, the 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora on Sumbawa Island in Indonesia. Not a snowball’s chance in Angband surviving that, for miles around due to pyroclastic flows, never mind up close. But stratovolcanoes have alternating ash explosions and lava flow incidents, even if the latter are not as “gentle” as common lava flows in the Hawaiian Islands – or rather now only on the big island giving the archipelago its name, these being shield volcanoes.

But stratovolcanoes (composite volcanoes) appear to be quite steep, at 30-35 degrees, compared to 5-10 degrees for shield volcanoes. So if Mount Doom had the slope steepness Deimos assumes … erm .. was it a composite-composite volcano? A shield-composite volcano? Most likely, I would guess, a “needs-to-fit-the-story” volcano. That bit about the cloud extending all the way to Rohan, but apparently without any noticeable ash rain … erm. The bit about how close the three Hobbits were to the lave below is another issue. Whenever volcanologists get somewhat close to the danger zone, they usually wear silver-colored heat-protective special gear – and also, like fire-fighters, an oxygen supply due to the poisonous gases. JRRT does not state how close the three came to the lava … PJ’s having Frodo hang by one hand above it is another case of total duh!

Perhaps the case of Stromboli, located on the Italian island of the same name, fits the picture as far as Frodo and Sam’s survival best. It is constantly active with minor eruptions, and the 500 inhabitants of the island don’t seem to get excited by most of the eruptions. Perhaps not spectacular enough for the dramatic needs of JRRT the writer. I’m not even going to start about PJ’s blockbuster “visions”. He would possibly have complained that even Mount Tambora could use some “jazzing up”.

I was using Fonstad for my volcano info.
And my info on the degrees of slope of stratovolcanoes came from HERE.

Something else to consider... Ent quotes Tolkien as saying he labored over every word.
Tolkien plans to use a Volcano in his story.
You say "JRRT was not a volcanologist. Nor am I professionally, though I may have picked up the odd bit of information by a lot of watching of documentaries, and by reading on the subject, that even a professional volcanologist in the first half of the 20th century would not have known."

But a lot was still known about them in Tolkien's time when he wrote LOTR. So if you were able to gain and /or augment your knowledge of volcanoes, isn't it fair to assume that The Professor would do the same? That if he was going to write about them, maybe he should learn a little (or more than a little) about them.

 

[Ent]

Not sure... redemption?

OK, OK... I'll spill the beans. The 3 pillars are Faith, Choice and Providence.

Eru creates. He is good. He is the only intrinsic good. All he creates is initially good. It can be nothing else, as he can be nothing else.

Eru trains his creation. Then when they are ready, he says
"Here are my themes. Adorn them "if you will"."

Catch that now... He provides permission to 'adorn' his themes. (add to them...make them beautiful.) AND, he provides a second permission... "if you will." The only PATH offered is to 'adorn them'. The CHOICE offred, is "if you will" (wish to). If you don't wish to adorn, just don't sing. There is no other choice given.

So the Ainur sing WHO WISH TO and TO ADORN.

Melkor, however, shortly takes an unauthorized path--one of his own making. He takes his FAITH off of ERU and ERU's plan and ability to provide.... and places it entirely on himself, his own power and ability to provide. An unauthorized Path and unauthorized Choice.

This is the 'making' of Evil. You see, Evil and Good are not 'thiings in themselves'. They are results or effects.

"Good" is the Gift in the Providence of Eru. Choice either keeps us locked into both that gift, and the giver... or the Choice takes us AWAY FROM that gift and giver. Evil is then 'made'... the result of our own 'choice.'

Once one separates themselves from the Giver and the Gift, Providence is no longer provided toward the one Choosing to place Faith in themselves, or in someone or something else. Those things have NO INTRINSIC GOOD in them, and the gift of good they were given has been destroyed by their CHOICE. With one exception. The Providence of Repentance is provided, a pathway for a return... which if taken, can bring about a restoration.

Melkor chose to put his faith in himself.
Sauron originally chose to remove his faith from Eru, abandon Manwe, and move his faith to Melkor.
When Sauron saw Melkor destroyed, he was given the Providence to Choose Repentance.
But he ultimatelhy Chose to put his Faith in Himself as well....again he "chose unwisely". (Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade... the choice of the Chalice.)

We see Faith, Choice, Providence and the 4th pillar though I only tangentially mention it in the Work so far worked out from beginning to end, in virtually every character and scene Tolkien writes.

Oh, he flavors it so it appears differently than the 'overt Christian Reference' he was so adament against... but it is clearly there, thoughout.

This is why Gandalf says to the Balrog "you cannot pass" rather than PJ's totally misunderstood "you shall not pass." But I will leave the rest of that explanation unstated.

Anyway, Tolkien's work is NOT about the standard 'good vs. evil' themes of most cookie-cutter Fantasy / Myth fare... as Tolkien understands 'good' and 'evil' are NOT a 'thing' of their own, having power of their own... they are simply the RESULTS of receiving the gift of Good, then our choices made with regard to maintaining that gift of Good or not, and the Providence inevitably resulting from our Choices.,, though of course, and here's the kicker, Eru knew every choice going to be made well before it was made... just as does Tolkien's God.

That's why he speaks to Providence and does not dapple with 'intervention.'
Intervention implies something happening because of an incident...often one of surprise.

Providence however, entirely has to do with providing IN ADVANCE for those things which are needful in the course of events.

Tolkien's work deals with Providence.

 

[Deimos]

OK, OK... I'll spill the beans. The 3 pillars are Faith, Choice and Providence.

....

Oh, he flavors it so it appears differently than the 'overt Christian Reference' he was so adament against... but it is clearly there, thoughout.

This is why Gandalf says to the Balrog "you cannot pass" rather than PJ's totally misunderstood "you shall not pass." But I will leave the rest of that explanation unstated.

Anyway, Tolkien's work is NOT about the standard 'good vs. evil' themes of most cookie-cutter Fantasy / Myth fare... as Tolkien understands 'good' and 'evil' are NOT a 'thing' of their own, having power of their own... they are simply the RESULTS of receiving the gift of Good, then our choices made with regard to maintaining that gift of Good or not, and the Providence inevitably resulting from our Choices.,, though of course, and here's the kicker, Eru knew every choice going to be made well before it was made... just as does Tolkien's God.

That's why he speaks to Providence and does not dapple with 'intervention.'
Intervention implies something happening because of an incident...often one of surprise.

Providence however, entirely has to do with providing IN ADVANCE for those things which are needful in the course of events.

Tolkien's work deals with Providence.

Ok... I see that.

 

[Ent]

Grace,

Ah yes.... Grace. It is distinctly there as well, but not as big a focus for Tolkien.
The Grace of his God is what keeps Eru from immediate destruction of the one choosing unwisely. It is also what allows 'Repentance' to continue to be offered, until the 'last chance' has come. (As with Saruman and his confrontation with Gandalf at Orthanc.)

it is also Grace returning Galadriel to the West, Grace allowing for Frodo's failure with the ring, etc. and so forth... it cannot be ignored... but I also do not highlight that in the book. (yet. I may eventually have to speak to repentance and grace a little more than originally planned.)

But Tolkien cannot write, and provide for his sub-creation, without all these elements being in play. It was never his intent to do so. He just did it without being "overt" like those he decried for the way they handled it.

We all need to get a grip on the truths of 'good and evil' in his works... and to understand how Gandalf, Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, Bombadil, Boromir, Denetor, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, and every other character are used to display these things.

Plus, how he uses the events he creates, to accommodate the display of them.

Good and evil? Insignificant. Evil remains at the end, just as does good. it will always be there... in many, many forms. There is a reason they take a focal point, and that focal point is so focused on, throughout history. It keeps us from seeing the depths to which things really need to be grasped.

And yet... by and large mankind NEEDS a Melkor, a Gandalf, and a Sauron... as continued reminders for why we have our own problems and what we need to be doing because of that.

I'll shut up now... my hope is just to help people dig into Tolkien deeper than they may have as yet considered and see his real foundation as opposed to many other contrivances.

There are a dozen books I'm reading now by 'christian' or various flavors of religious authors, who are trying to explain Tolkien's work from "his Christian perspective".

But they're really milking their own rock, not seeing his.
His is basic... simple... fundamental... and Truth from his viewpoint.
Yes, he was a devout Catholic. He was also a Catholic layperson... though well studied.

He has no intention of using his Middle-earth to display dramatic depths of theological expertise. He's simply working to get people to see the basics, and that good and evil are RESULTS not things in themselves... the key being us asking ourselves the question:...
.... "what results am I producing, since it's all driven by my own choice... and why."

There it is.

 

[Ent]

Now having completely derailed this thread, I apologize, and return to the Thread.

In my view, a Nazgul still can't fly at all. The 9 have no wings, and when we read of them being knocked off horses and winged fell beasts, etc. they are earthbound, needing to 'find their way back to Mordor as best they can', or be provided with another steed, or whatever. (Which I also find a little interesting as it implies, to some extent, they may be subject to 'gravity'... yet they are 'of that other world'. I'm still trying to reconcile that as well.)

As to all the other calculations being made about the Fell Beast's needed speed, I read Diemos' posts with interest... and plan to check them out alongside the others being shared 'to the point of the thread'.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

In my view, a Nazgul still can't fly at all.

Were the Ringwraiths only called Nazgûl when they rode Fell-Beasts though? I always considered Nazgûl to be a joint-name, as Gollum puts it: "Wraithssss on wingsss!"
Similar to how Ringwraiths were called Black Riders when they rode their dark horses. A joint-name once again between beast and rider.
Hence, Nazgûl can fly because this is the combination of a Ringwraith (non-flying entity) on a Fell-beast (flying entity).
Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ent]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I THINK they were called Nazgul as much as Ringwraiths. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Nazgul translates to 'ringwraith'.
BUT... I'm going to need to check... (again, later.)

The Fell Beasts had no name of their own.

From Foster: Complete Guide:

NAZGÛL (B.S.: nazg ‘ring’ + gûl ‘wraith’) Nine beings, slaves of the Nine Rings and the chief servants of Sauron. Originally Men, three of them Black Númenóreans, the Nazgûl were each given one of the Nine Rings by Sauron in the Second Age, and, being desirous of power, were easily corrupted. About SA 2250 they first appeared as the Nazgûl, beings utterly dependent on Sauron, or, more accurately, on his power acting through the One Ring. When Sauron fell at the end of the Second Age, the Nazgûl were overthrown or went into hiding. They reappeared about TA 1300, at which time their chief, the Lord of the Nazgûl (q.v.), became the Witch-king of Angmar. The other eight stayed in the East until about 1640, when they secretly entered Mordor and began to prepare that realm for Sauron, who was in Dol Guldur. In 2000, joined by their Lord, the Nazgûl besieged Minas Ithil, capturing the city and its palantír in 2002. From this time, the Nazgûl were closely associated with Minas Morgul, as Minas Ithil was then called. In 2951, ten years after its desertion by Sauron, three Nazgûl went to Dol Guldur and stayed there until the WR.

Foster, Robert. The Complete Guide to Middle-earth: Tolkien's World in The Lord of the Rings and Beyond (pp. 358-359). Random House Worlds. Kindle Edition.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

I THINK they were called Nazgul as much as Ringwraiths. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Nazgul translates to 'ringwraith'.
BUT... I'm going to neet to check... (again, later.)

The Fell Beasts had no name of their own.

From Foster: Complete Guide:

NAZGÛL (B.S.: nazg ‘ring’ + gûl ‘wraith’) Nine beings, slaves of the Nine Rings and the chief servants of Sauron. Originally Men, three of them Black Númenóreans, the Nazgûl were each given one of the Nine Rings by Sauron in the Second Age, and, being desirous of power, were easily corrupted. About SA 2250 they first appeared as the Nazgûl, beings utterly dependent on Sauron, or, more accurately, on his power acting through the One Ring. When Sauron fell at the end of the Second Age, the Nazgûl were overthrown or went into hiding. They reappeared about TA 1300, at which time their chief, the Lord of the Nazgûl (q.v.), became the Witch-king of Angmar. The other eight stayed in the East until about 1640, when they secretly entered Mordor and began to prepare that realm for Sauron, who was in Dol Guldur. In 2000, joined by their Lord, the Nazgûl besieged Minas Ithil, capturing the city and its palantír in 2002. From this time, the Nazgûl were closely associated with Minas Morgul, as Minas Ithil was then called. In 2951, ten years after its desertion by Sauron, three Nazgûl went to Dol Guldur and stayed there until the WR.

Foster, Robert. The Complete Guide to Middle-earth: Tolkien's World in The Lord of the Rings and Beyond (pp. 358-359). Random House Worlds. Kindle Edition.

Very interesting. Now I see what you mean because there is a distinction between a Nazgûl and a winged-Nazgûl. So Nazgûl on their own could not fly, therefore.

 

[Ent]

therefore.

exactly. A Nazgûl was never able to fly on his own at any time.

He was only called a 'winged Nazgûl' when he sat on one of the winged beasts.

The Nazgûl himself was not in any way changed. The winged beast was just a steed providing transport as the horses formerly did.

So the right question would be 'how fast could one of the winged beasts Sauron nurtured for the Nazgûl to ride on fly."

But it's just 'language' and 'words'... everybody knows what is really meant..!
We do the same all the time. We say, for example, 'I'm flying to New York on Monday'.
But "I'm" really not flying at all. The Plane is.
(Ent is ever the literalist.)