Are you Fëanorean?

[Thorondor_]

Please excuse me, Thorondor_ person, but I don't know who started using the blasphemous oath phrase. Did not intend to deflate your opinion of my memory too much. Would it help your point that what he did was blasphemous if I knew? *hides*

Tolkien wrote that, in a letter to Milton Waldman.

I have no idea why the silly elves decided to follow Feanor instead of doing what they wanted to do in the first place (go back to brainless paradise).
I see no writings stating that Feanor forced people to make decisions that turned out to be harmful

He is the mighties elf in the skill of word; his speech "stirred the noldor into madness". He also "drove them on,[in overhaste] fearing lest in the cooling of their hearts his words should wane and other counsels yet prevail". A bit of forcing their hand, wouldn't you say?

 

[YayGollum]

Hehehe. Maybe. Dang. That makes my side look bad, doesn't it? oh well. I gots to admire a dude with some good speech-making abilities. I guess that I would merely have to write ---> It is their fault for being stupid enough to be swayed. Or stirred into madness. A few of them had the brainpower to resist his awesomeness, but they still went along. That was stupid. Sure, it was written that they mostly came to help the stupid elves, but if they were so great, they should have made better speeches to get the brainless multitudes to stay in paradise.

Anyways, to the bit about blasphemous oaths and Tolkien writing that ---> I have no problem with disagreeing with the author. I have done that plenty of times before. Maybe that Tolkien person didn't understand my point that gods are people, too, either.

 

[Grond]

...Also, I would say that that ---> "lust for silmaril things bringing ruin not only to those who took the oath, but to all the elven kingdoms" bit of yours could be true. Why not? But then, are you not merely writing of many choices made by many people that the Feanor character did not take over the brains of? Looks like it. I see no writings stating that Feanor forced people to make decisions that turned out to be harmful.

It is the very thing that you seem to most admire about Feanor that did, indeed, "force" many of the Elves to come. Feanor's "force of will" and ability to lead and convince "forced" His own sons to be bound to him. They followed him blindly, as did many other Noldor. Another larger group chose to follow Fingolfin and abandoned Valinor more out of curiousity and boredom (as I see it) than revenge.

Cheers,

grond

 

[YayGollum]

Having a great force of will doesn't mean that he's forcing anyone to do anything. That's just different ways of using the word. Even though I call all of those people brainless sheep and things like that, they all had to make their own decisions. Because those turned out to be dumb ones, I enjoy making fun, though. oh well.

Anyways, one of the things that you wrote confused me, Grond person. Are you more of a fan of the brainless sheep who followed the achingly cool Feanor character or the curious and bored sheep who followed the superly boring Fingolfin character? It is most likely the curious and bored ones, since they were following a character that you happen to be more of a fan of, for some crazy reason. I was confused because most don't seem to view that particular group of elves that way. Cool. I happen to view them as other brainless sheep who became just as passionate as Feanor's group by way of his speech and would have gone with him, too, if it wasn't for their leaders, who they were more directly bound to. The leaders of that group had to follow Feanor in the stupid way that they did or go back to paradise and have their followers always looking east.

Also, no, I admire the Feanor character for no particular action or quality. I mostly just admire the mind that thought him up.

 

[Arvedui]

It is the very thing that you seem to most admire about Feanor that did, indeed, "force" many of the Elves to come. Feanor's "force of will" and ability to lead and convince "forced" His own sons to be bound to him. They followed him blindly, as did many other Noldor. Another larger group chose to follow Fingolfin and abandoned Valinor more out of curiousity and boredom (as I see it) than revenge.

Cheers,

grond

But don't forget that although trying to fight Morgoth brought ruin to the Noldor, it probably saved Middle-earth and Arda from Morgoth's "nihilistic frenzy."

 

[Ingwë]

Fingolfin and Fëanor...

Anyways, one of the things that you wrote confused me, Grond person. Are you more of a fan of the brainless sheep who followed the achingly cool Feanor character or the curious and bored sheep who followed the superly boring Fingolfin character? It is most likely the curious and bored ones, since they were following a character that you happen to be more of a fan of, for some crazy reason.

Why do you think that Fingolfin is boring? He's interestingcharacter. He fought face to face vs. The Dark lord Morgoth. Feanor couldn't reach him because of his foolishness. I think it is clear. Yes, Fëanor's followers were brainless sheeps who fell under his 'spell'. But Fingolfin's followers were Not bored sheeps. They followed him because they loved him and they loved their own friends who followed the tragic Fëanor character.

 

[Thorondor_]

But don't forget that although trying to fight Morgoth brought ruin to the Noldor, it probably saved Middle-earth and Arda from Morgoth's "nihilistic frenzy."

I would say that it was the curse of the noldor (not the their effort to fight Morgoth per se) that brought them their ruin - and it was caused by the evil deeds of Feanor.

 

[YayGollum]

You think that the Fingolfin person is interesting because he was stupid enough to fight Mel? I am not so much a fan of the stupid. oh well. I happen to think that the Fingolfin character is boring because I see no personality in him. Sure, I see a bunch of actions recorded but no actual brain, unlike the Feanor character. Maybe your definitions of boring and interesting are different from mine. I have noticed that many people seem to take the things that fictional characters do and imagine how cool an actual person who did things like that could be. I don't do that. I read books for the entertainment. Feanor is more entertaining than Fingolfin. sorry about that. Anyways, I would write that the dudes who followed the Feanor character were just as stupid as the dudes who followed the Fingolfin character. They were all sheep who wished to follow the obvious leaders.

 

[Thorondor_]

Sure, I see a bunch of actions recorded but no actual brain, unlike the Feanor character

Quite the contrary; Fingolfin feared Feanor's "rash counsels" (and for good reasons) and he also didn't make the same mistake Feanor did when facing the forces of Angband.

 

[YayGollum]

Maybe I should have kept writing about personality instead of brain. sorry about that. Where is the personality? Maybe I should write about originality and interestingness instead of personality? Sure, that sounds like the most accurate thing. Anyways, what mistake did the Feanor character make that the Fingolfin character didn't while facing any minion of Mel? You wrote of it as if it was some achingly well known thing.

 

[Thorondor_]

From: Of the return of the noldor

Yet cause he had for great joy, though it was hidden from him for a while. For Feanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself: and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them
....
But Fingolfin, being of other temper than Feanor, and wary of the wiles of Morgoth, withdrew from Dor Daedeloth and turned back towards Mithrim, for he had heard tidings that there he should find the sons of Feanor, and he desired also to have the shield of the Mountains of Shadow while his people rested and grew strong; for he had seen the strength of Angband, and thought not that it would fall to the sound of trumpets only

Where is the personality? Maybe I should write about originality and interestingness instead of personality? Sure, that sounds like the most accurate thing

Seeing that Feanor became mostly driven by Melkor's lies, that chips away a large chunk of his originality, wouldn't you agree?

 

[YayGollum]

Ah. Got it. Sure. That makes sense. But still. Nothing cool about the Fingolfin character, in my answering of the Ingwe person's question. Unless you people only like him because he is muchly opposite to Feanor.

 

[Grond]

Ah. Got it. Sure. That makes sense. But still. Nothing cool about the Fingolfin character, in my answering of the Ingwe person's question. Unless you people only like him because he is muchly opposite to Feanor.

Unlike Feanor, Fingolfin's motives were not tainted with evil. The "cause" may be just (in Feanor's case) but the motives were flawed/marred/influenced by evil.

Cheers,

grond

 

[Maedhros]

Unlike Feanor, Fingolfin's motives were not tainted with evil. The "cause" may be just (in Feanor's case) but the motives were flawed/marred/influenced by evil.

I had to return from the Halls of Mandos to answer this. Of course Fingolfin's motives were tainted with evil, otherwise he would have not come to ME as his brother Finarfin had done.
Part of the motive of Fingolfin to want to come to ME besides the murdering of his father, was to confront Fëanor again because of the desertion of them in the Wastes of Araman.
And this was good too:
From the

§52d Then there was great unrest in Túna, and Finwë was troubled, and he summoned all his lords to council. But Fingolfin hastened to his halls and stood before him, saying: 'King and father, wilt thou not restrain the pride of our brother, Curufinwë, who is called the Spirit of Fire, all too truly? By what right does he speak for all our people, as were he king? Thou it was who long ago spoke before the Quendi, bidding them accept the guesting of the Mighty in Aman. Thou it was that led the Noldor upon the long road through the perilous Earth to the light of Eldanor. If this does not now repent thee, two sons at least thou hast to honour thy words!'
§52e But even as he spoke, suddenly Fëanor appeared, and he strode into the chamber tall and threatening. A fire of anger was in his eyes, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his head, and at his side a mighty sword. 'So it is, even as I guessed,' he said: 'my half-brother would be before me with my father, in this as in all other matters. He would not wait for the council, where all words would be heard by all, and answered. He would speak against me in secret. This I will not brook!' he cried, turning upon Fingolfin. 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!' Then as a flash of flame he drew his sword. 'Get thee gone and dare my wrath no longer!'

What do you know, Grond and Maedhros debating about Fëanor. Seems like a long time ago.

 

[Ingwë]

You think that the Fingolfin person is interesting because he was stupid enough to fight Mel? I am not so much a fan of the stupid.

Yay, I love reading your posts.
So you think that I think that Fingolfin is interesting because he was stupid to fight Melkor? No, I don't think so. What about Fëanor? Wasn't he stupid enough to attack Thangorodrim and to try fighting to Melkor? He was. It seems that you're a fan of the stupid. But Fëanor couldn't reach Melkor was was killed by the Balrogs. Fingolfin fought face to face to Morgoth and... well, he perished

 

[YayGollum]

Yes, I would write that are not most people's motives flawed slash marred slash influenced in any way by evil? Nobody is pure good, so they all have a bit of evil in them. oh well. The fact that the Feanor character acted the way that he did is one of the reasons for why he's so cool. Anyways, am happy to bring old rivals together by inciting Feanorian debate.

Ingwe person, I love reading my posts, too. I must be the greatest. Anyways, I only wrote my question about whether or not you liked the Fingolfin character for the only reason that you wrote ---> "He's an interesting character. He fought face to face vs. The Dark lord Morgoth." oh well. It didn't seem like much of a reason to enjoy a character, since that action was pretty stupid. I never wrote that everything that the Feanor character did was the most intelligent. I happen to think that the Feanor character is one of the best because of the reasons that I wrote at the beginning. Maybe more than those reasons, too.

 

[Ingwë]

Ingwe person, I love reading my posts, too. I must be the greatest.

Yes, of course you love reading your post. I love reding my ones, too though I don't think that I'm the greatest

I only wrote my question about whether or not you liked the Fingolfin character for the only reason that you wrote ---> "He's an interesting character. He fought face to face vs. The Dark lord Morgoth." oh well. It didn't seem like much of a reason to enjoy a character, since that action was pretty stupid. I never wrote that everything that the Feanor character did was the most intelligent.

But as I previousl mentioned Fëanor was stupid enough to attack Melkor. So I don't think that you must not say Fingolfin's action is stupid.
Certainly Fëanor wasn''t the most inteligent. Finarfin was because he returned to Valinor. Actually, he has never left the Blessed Realm )

 

[YayGollum]

All should think that they are the greatest. With such self-confidence, you don't really have to mind that others might think the same thing of themselves. That's fine, since you are certain that they are wrong. just have pity on them. Sure, you can admire people or admit that they are better than you in certain ways, but there is nothing wrong with thinking that you are the greatest. Anyways, sure, they were both stupid for certain reasons, but the Feanor character was still far more interesting, which was my point. The Fingon dude was probably the smartest and most boring, though.

 

[Turambar]

Yes I am. It's just the way the story is written that makes me be on his side. I can't agree with a load of the stuff he did but when reading the story I always find myself on his side for some reason.

 

[Inderjit S]

I suppose I am a Feanorian too.

To accuse Feanor and Feanor alone for the fall of the Noldor is the over-simplification of a complicated issue-the Noldor were (to a degree) 'tainted' before they came to Aman, and after they lived in Aman-that Feanor was the main protaginist in the rebellion of the Noldor is without doubt, that Feanor was solely to blame for the actions of the Noldor is glib reasoning-the Noldor had minds and wills of their own, and many went for reasons different from Feanor's-some to avenge Finwe's death (such as Fingolfin), some to thwart Feanor (such as Galadriel), some to see new lands (such as Finrod) and some were constrained by their kinship (such as Turgon)-I see no reason as to why such a multifarity of reasons shouldn't exist outside of the House of Finwe. Nobody forced Fingon to aid Feanor and fight the Teleri, part of it was because of an inherent fault in his character and the Noldor in general-a mistrust of the Valar, nobody forced Fingolfin to claim the kingship when he just told Feanor he would follow Feanor wherever Feanor lead him, but then again nobody forced Feanor to act like such a moron.

I guess Feanor is the shining light in what is a essentialy non-human paradise, he is the most 'human' of the Eldar, though he is also the strongest, his rebellion allows for the humanization of the Eldar, who were after all an imperfect race, as were all others races, the Vanyar being better than others, and as Tolkien states every story must have a fall-Feanor's fall leads to Silmarillion and the fall of the Noldor, it was tragic yet beautiful and the history of Arda was made greater because of it. Yet Feanor is also, in his own fashion, a tragic character, something which many people ignore.