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🧝Arwen: why i hate her

Saucy

In love.
Joined
Jan 22, 2003
Messages
315
join me now...may all anti Arwen's unite?!!!

1.> she does nothing other then sit around and have "HOPE" that things work out!!!! if i was her, i'd be there fight along Aragorn's side.

2.>She is so forlorn, like really id be way happier then she is if i was a gazillion (exageration) yr's old and still looked that good

3.> Eowyn diserved aragorn WAY more but stupid arwen stood in her way!


i posted this in the book section because i felt this way about her when i read the books...but even in the movie i cant STAND her cause pj has taken her annoying hated qualities and multiplied them a gazillion times
 
I agree, I never liked Arwen very much, especially after the movies, she's a waste of good movie time. :mad:
 
I hope I don't sound sexist or male chauvinistic here...

You misunderstand the nature of the Elves. The Elves are supposed to be stand-offish and secluded. They are the highest created beings. They were written to be mysterious, deep and old. The ways of man don't concern them to much anymore. Arwen is that 'put on a pedastal' type of woman. The whole point of Aragorn's quest to fulfill his destiny as king is to 'earn' Arwen. The fact is, is that Aragorn doesn't deserve Arwen. The Elves are far above any man. Arwen not involving herself is what makes her all the more desirable to a mortal man.

Eowyn is 'every woman'. She's mortal and more like Aragorn, no doubt. But she is not Elven and does not have the kinship that Aragorn has with the Elves. Aragorn and Arwen's love is a deep love, not a surface crush.

By involving Arwen in everything like PJ did, he made Arwen as 'every woman', rather than the 'unreachable prize'.

Sheesh, that really sounds piggish doesn't it? :p
 
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Not at all m8 (hope u dont mind the m8, lol, its my second fav. word). It makes a whole lot me sence now, ty. I think this thread should now be in the movie section. ;)
 
well really i cant see what makes elves so great cause realy isnt everyone equal? and besides that how can pointy ers be attractive?:D ;)

now Eowyn...aragorn doesnt deserve her, man should desire an independent women who will fight for what she believes in and is strong and will ful.

but i guess tolkien didnt agree with me there/
:(
 
Arwen has different qualities from Eowyn, qualities which are now looked down upon in our modern world which is sort of sad. I've always admired her ability to stay home and wait for Aragorn. I'm not a huge feminist. I'd rather wait than fight. I know it probably took as much courage (and I'm assuming she didn't know how to fight and wasn't the type who would care to learn. . .many people aren't the fight-type).

And in Tolkien's world, no, everyone is not equal. The Elves are considered superior.

Arwen is an underdeveloped character, however. We don't know a lot about her. I've always assumed she had an artistic, sensitive, but highly reserved nature.
 
1.> she does nothing other then sit around and have "HOPE" that things work out!!!! if i was her, i'd be there fight along Aragorn's side.

Uh-Huh. Arwen Warrior Princess, going around Middle-Earth on adventures full of walks on the beach (The haven of Umbar that is, to over-throw it), walks under moon-light (To capture Gollum that is) and visits to exotic locations such as the Dead Marshes, Mordor and Far Harad, where the stars are strange and people evil!

Or maybe to help Aragorn she could poison Denethor, or Ecthelion (Depending on their eagerness and patience) and do the same to Faramir and Boromir. (I wonder what really happened to Finduilas, to make her die so young?)

Or maybe she could storm Barad-dur?

2.>She is so forlorn, like really id be way happier then she is if i was a gazillion (exageration) yr's old and still looked that good

Not everybody is fickle. You don't look in the mirror, realise that your 3,000 years old and still haven't had botox and forget all about choosing between the love of your life and your father and then realising, after you choose the love of your life that you will never see your father or mother and a lot of other people you care about again.


3.> Eowyn diserved aragorn WAY more but stupid arwen
stood in her way!

No, the fact that neither really loved each other stood in the way.
 
Arwen is an underdeveloped character, however. We don't know a lot about her. I've always assumed she had an artistic, sensitive, but highly reserved nature.

Indeed. Yet she is the "evenstar" of her people, she is said to be analogous to Lúthien the greatest of all the Elves, revered and respected by a lot of people, "the noblest lady the lives" (Gilraen) and a maiden of Yavanna. As can be seen by the corresponding HoME 6-9 a very late addition, and thus Tolkien was unable to say much about her in the narrative) and there is also something in the 'Letters of Tolkien' about Arwen's textual appearances (or lack of them) and it had something to do, if I recall correctly, with the fact that the text was by and large written by Hobbits. I cannot quite remember and it is too late in the day to check now.
 
I just read Inderjit S posts and I realized that I can write only.I absolutely agree.The other things I could say were said by him

Inderjit you make it impossible for the others to participate,especially after your posts ;) :D

But let me add something,Eowyn was not for Aragorn.Aragorn was one of the Dunedain,he grew in Rivendell,together with the Elven culture.So he was actually closer to elves than to men.He was just not the right type of man for Eowyn.
 
Originally posted by powersauce
join me now...may all anti Arwen's unite?!!!

1.> she does nothing other then sit around and have "HOPE" that things work out!!!! if i was her, i'd be there fight along Aragorn's side.

2.>She is so forlorn, like really id be way happier then she is if i was a gazillion (exageration) yr's old and still looked that good

3.> Eowyn diserved aragorn WAY more but stupid arwen stood in her way!



Hell yeah! Rock on Powersauce! Eowyn is way better. Arwen is a spoiled princess. :rolleyes:
 
Actually, Eowyn shows more signs of being spoiled than Arwen. Eowyn goes through three stages in the books:

1. Cold, hurt, desperate, shield maiden.

2. Rejected, sulking, sick maiden.

3. Full grown woman in love with Faramir and finally happy.

There is something noble in 1 and 3. Two we see a little of during the time when 1 is prevalent. It comes out a bit in her pursuit of Aragorn. She wants out. She's willing to do anything to get out, to get her way. Not that her way isn't a good thing. It was a heck of a lot better than what she had. Three is mainly seen after she is healed by Aragorn.

At this point she reverts to seemingly childish requests. She reminds me very much of a sad child in the scene where she says 'But my window does not look east" or something like that.

Arwen we never see signs of spoiledness. We know she gets the guy we all want;), but the guy wanted her just as much if not more than she wanted him.
 
I dislike Arwen for the simple fact that I find her incredibly boring. Sits at home (under a canopy), embroiders, hums wedding march and hopes. Very...nice. Arwen is the kind of person who you want to live next-door to, or maybe have as queen. But she isn't a very interesting character, which is why I find it so bewildering that a remarkable lot of people seem to fall down at her (perfectly trimmed and painted) toe-nails and worship (pre-movies an increasingly bitter fan of a particular shieldmaiden was very annoyed and remains very annoyed at the lack of Eowyn art, despite the hundreds and hundreds of pictures people feel the need to do of Arwen).

I know people who are Arwen-esque, and I love them dearly, but I ask a little bit more of my book characters.

<edit> And the only reason I am not thwapping Elgee is that I'm going to bed now and this is the wrong thread...but I'm not about to let you off!
 
I don't necessarily think liking Eowyn means you have to dislike Arwen. . .unless you also dislike Faramir and think that Aragorn should've married Eowyn. Both girls got good guys in the end.

I also think that the spoiled child side of Eowyn makes her MORE appealing, which is why I'm never going to let Rhi talk me out of that vision of her. It helps me relate.

I think what is appealing about Arwen is that we have to make up all the big details. . .we can make up just about anything about her (even that she's a warrior princess, apparently :rolleyes: ).

I can imagine her crying gently as she carefully makes the flag. I can imagine that she was known to make beautiful embroidery, which would link her with my beading escapades. I can imagine that she wrote poetry in her spare time.

In not knowing anything, we know everything.
 
Liking Eowyn does not mean you have to dislike Arwen, but it sure doesn't mean you have to like her, either. And you can still be annoyed with people who do like her and completely ignore the existence of any other female characters, even though they do a lot more.

I find Arwen's passive approach to life very unappealing, annoying, and downright dull. She's very nice, but if I had to live in the same house with her, one of us would die.

And it wouldn't be me.

I can envision her arranging throw pillows and making perfect cookies and never blowing up the kitchen and never smearing her lipstick or sleeping on her hair funny or spilling her drink down her front or snorting soda up her nose during Henry V (all things I have done- and snorting up soda is painful).

Basically I despise perfection. I hate perfect people, and I hate people who idolize perfect people. And I like my characters flawed and pro-active and psychologically complex so I can have fun writing essays on them.
 
On the other hand maybe it's just a matter of "do you prefer blondes or brunettes?"
*shrug*
 
...only if you're shallow...

I actually don't really care for blonds.
 
i think its a case of
Arwen Vs. Eowyn the cat fight! who would win

of course arwen is a bleh! character and Eowyn is a very deep character that one can relate too.
 
The difficulty with Tolkien’s Arwen is that we don’t know anything much about her.

It seems she is revered by the Elves, but we don’t see the reasons she is revered, other than being, it appears, extraordinary beautiful.

In writing The Lord of the Rings Tolkien himself only gradually realized that this Trotter hobbit was actually the lost heir to the throne of Gondor.

Lost heirs are standard in romantic fiction and are often the heroes. Certainly Aragorn whom Trotter metamorphed into took on role of the standard virtuous and noble romantic hero who in the end gains his rightful place and of course marries suitably.

But that’s not the center of Tolkien’s story. The full story of Aragorn’s life and of his love for Arwen lies mostly outside The Lord of the Rings. The small amount of writing on the matter in the Appendix A doesn’t well fill the gap.

I don’t find that among Tolkien’s most inspiring writings. Tolkien doesn’t make Arwen come alive or early Aragorn come alive.

Accordingly Arwen can’t be much else than blank to the reader. She is weakly characterized.

I don’t see much in Arwen either to hate or to respect from knowledge that Tolkien provides, other than knowing that in default of any other information we probably should take her at Aragorn’s and Tolkien’s estimation if we can do so.

Perhaps if Tolkien had been given longer to work on the Appendices and more space had been provided he Tolkien would have been able to fill out the tale of Aragorn and Arwen satisfactorily.

I am reminded of similar complaints for much the same reason from generations of readers of Walter Scott’s Ivanhoe, readers who far prefer Rebecca to the staid and conventional and mostly unknown Rowena.

The same reaction occurs with Victor Hugo’s Les Miserables where Eponine seems far worthier of Marius’ love than does Cossette (though Marius himself is so useless that one also wonders why Eponine bothers with him).

And what did Tarzan see in Jane Porter compared to La of Opar?

Now if Tolkien had been writing a conventional heroic romance he would have focused on Aragorn and Arwen and the story would have ended at their coronation and wedding (and the wedding of Faramir and Éowyn).

Group weddings are common at the end of heroic romances. Instead Tolkien’s center is with the smaller folk who made the triumph possible. Aragorn is not Tolkien’s main interest and Arwen, invented very late as an appropriate love interest, is less so.

That Arwen is uncharacterized is reasonable in The Lord of the Rings. It is more of a flaw that Tolkien did not do more with her in the Appendix A.
 

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