Barolgs vs 🐲Dragons, which is stronger?

[Hisoka Morrow]

Yep, Balrogs were Maiar by the time of this note, and according to the Annals of Aman -- the abandoned typescript version AAm* section 30: "And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Umaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath."

CJRT writes that there seems no way to determine with certainty when AAm* was made, but he thinks or feels that it belongs to the early 1950s, and if so, I needn't look further to also say that the Balrogs were Maiar at an external time when they were conceived of as numerous.



CJRT's edits to surviving "Numerous Balrog" passages

Despite Tolkien's famed note to drastically reduce Balrog numbers (and its attending revision to a passage in AAM), so far I've counted 4 surviving references to numerous Balrogs. Here they are -- followed by the alterations made to The Silmarillion by Christopher Tolkien:


1: "Wherefore each embassy came with greater force than was agreed, but Morgoth sent the greater, and they were Balrogs. Maidros was ambushed..." Of The Siege of Angband (Quenta Silmarillion) [] "... but Morgoth sent the more, and there were Balrogs." Of The Return of the Noldor (The Silmarillion)

2: "Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with a host of Balrogs." Of the Ruin of Beleriand And the Fall of Fingolfin (Quenta Silmarillion) [] ".. named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion." Of The Ruin Of Beleriand (The Silmarillion)

3: "There came wolves and serpents, and there came Balrogs one thousand,..." Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad (Quenta Silmarillion) [] "There came wolves and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons..." Of The Fifth Battle (The Silmarillion)

4. The Grey Annals contains "Balrogs a thousand" §230, but nothing is noted as to any changes in the later 1950s.

Notes to these numbered passages

1 This description (from the QS tradition) survived into LQS despite a number of other post Lord of the Rings revisions to this chapter.

2 This example (Orodreth and etc) also was not revised -- with Tolkien even altering §143 of the chapter, but not the "host" of Balrogs passage.

3 Another survival, but noting CJRT's description under The Last Chapters Of The Quenta Silmarillion, possibly JRRT never really got around to "truly" revising this chapter in any case.

Hmm...it seems Balrogs were much like special forces instead of Dragons, playing much role as super mass destruction weapons🧐🧐🧐

I believe dragons might actually be stronger. Remember, during War of the Wrath, balrogs were all destroyed along with rest of Morgoth's army, yet we never hear of them impeding Valar's progress. But when winged dragons attacked, Valar were actually pushed back.

I knew it!Thanks, and obviously those Balrogs didn't cause too many casualties among Valinor Expedition before the Dragons took their posts. So without doubt, the Dragons caused much more threat than the Balrogs to the Valinor Expedition 😁😁😁

OTOH, metaphysical logic goes against this: balrogs were created earlier, before Morgoth's decline set in the earnest and were actually Maiar originally. Thus they should be stronger than dragons, both due to their inherent superior nature and due to their creator's superior state at the moment of their creation.

Hmm...well...the devastating casualties of Balrogs in Gondolin proved that Noldor elves might own them a little, and further, during Dagor Bragollach, none of the Balrogs dare stand in Fingolfin's way. So maybe metaphysical logic only set Balrogs were stronger on innate stuff?And the Noldor elves took on these created earlier armed forces by acquired stuff, like discipline, tactic, and so forth.

 

[Elthir]

I think he's referring to Andreth's Dagorath.

But Andreth's prophecy refers to the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days -- that is, the War of Wrath (as explained by Christopher Tolkien, which also explains why CJRT includes reference to the earlier texts in which Earendil slays Ancalagon).

Elthir, Elthir ... tut, tut, tut, are you now falling into PJ's trap, thinking you can improve on JRRT's writing?

Earlier in the thread I noted Christopher Tolkien's revisions regarding Balrog numbers, but I don't think CJRT thought of these edits as improving anything. In my opinion, he's rather choosing a solution which pays some heed to Tolkien's "three or at most seven" note (and revision to AAM).

My fun experiment above is not about improvement, but to try to incorporate Tolkien's "last known" version of Turin's return -- the slaying of Ancalagon in the War of Wrath -- into The Silmarillion.

My edit allows for the truth of Andreth's prophecy to be possible -- but not stated as a certainly known historical fact (outside the context of a recorded prophecy) -- in a legendarium that obviously goes beyond, chronologically, the War of Wrath.

Of course it's very possible that Tolkien meant to include Andreth's prophecy and describe its coming true, or to go back to Earendil here, or something else, but in any case, again, I was just playing with hooking up the later notion of Ancalagon's death with earlier, existing text.

🐾

 

[Miguel]

But Andreth's prophecy refers to the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days -- that is, the War of Wrath

Aaaaaaaa.

 

[Olorgando]

But Andreth's prophecy refers to the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days -- that is, the War of Wrath ...

My new HoMe Index was not as helpful as I'd hoped, so I had do do quite a bit of reading concerning Andreth mostly in vol. 10 MR, which contains the long "Arthrabeth Finrod A Andreth" - but in which I found nothing about a prophecy about Túrin. Vol. 11 WoTJ had very little, but I may have "struck gold" at last in vol 12 PoMe. Sort of. In the very long note 17 to chapter 12 "The Problem of Ros":
"... Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly afterwards in this text. p. 371) ...".
In the first two-and-a-half of the last five lines of this note. Flying in the teeth of the use of the term 'Last Battle' as used in the previous page-and-a-half of this note. And in the teeth of the last two-and-a-half lines pointing out that over masses of earlier writing, it was Eärendil who destroys Ancalagon in the War of Wrath at the end of the Elder Days.
This is in Part Two "Late Writings", all from 1967 at the earliest. It and writings like it to be found in the last three volumes of HoMe may be a major reason that I remember so little about these late volumes. As I've mentioned elsewhere, re-reading these things for comments on various threads here (pointed to such quotes by Elthir, Alcuin and others) has led me to the conviction "good thing JRRT never got around to these revisions!"

OK, so Túrin is a proven dragon-slayer. By that ol' gimmick that Sigurd / Siegfried / whoever had already used on Fafnir in the Norse Sagas. Point is, a crawling dragon. Now Túrin returning from wherever would definitely need some special dispensation from Eru like for Beren, and as one would say nowadays an "upgrade". But to tackle the greatest dragon of all time, a flying one? Gets too far into conventional Marvel / DC superhero territory in the context of Middle-earth for my taste. No, Eärendil wearing a Silmaril and flying in in his hallowed ship Vingilot fits that much better.

And then for "poetic justice": first, the Dagor Dagorath will almost certainly put the War of Wrath to shame in its scope. This is Ragnarök or Armageddon territory. And Túrin getting his ultimate revenge on the ultimate baddie of Middle-earth, who was the spiteful cause of his and his family's suffering, is in the Middle-earth context the most fitting. Chopping up an oversized salamander as ersatz heroics in some secondary skirmish just looks totally wimpy.

 

[Elthir]

I think the Prophecy of Andreth, and a later, Númenorean Myth that includes Túrin and Morgoth, could both exist in the larger legendarium. I like the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) being a sign of Túrin, as noted in The Annals of Aman:

" . . . The Swordsman of the Sky. This, it is said, was a sign of Túrin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshadowing of the Last Battle at the end of Days."

It is said. By whom? I note the preamble to a different Annals of Aman (AAm*), which arguably reflects the later Númenorean/Bilbo transmission, and in this scenario, Rúmil made the Annals in the Elder Days, which were held in memory by the Exiles, and: "Those parts which we learned and remembered were thus set down in Númenor before the Shadow fell on it."

Also, the last time I spoke with Alcuin about the matter of Andreth's prophecy, he gave me something further to think about here . . . but of course, right now I can't recall what it was and I can't find the post.

Drat!

In any case, as I noted above, if nothing is said about who killed Ancalagon in QS, this at least keeps both Andreth's prophecy and the Númenorean Myth in the same "boat", if that boat is: neither event is "recorded history" in the same sense as other recorded history: one is a mannish prophecy possibly fulfilled, the other a mannish myth concerning the End Days . . .

. . . in which readers would still get (in the myth version), or might still get, the poetic justice Gando refers to.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

In any case, as I noted above, if nothing is said about who killed Ancalagon in QS, this at least keeps both Andreth's prophecy and the Númenorean Myth in the same "boat", if that boat is: neither event is "recorded history" in the same sense as other recorded history: one is a mannish prophecy possibly fulfilled, the other a mannish myth concerning the End Days . . .

...so even who killed Ancalagon is uncertain as well...but if it's not Earendil, then who can be such relentless ape?
If it's Valars, then they might need nothing Super Weapon Bonus, after all, their own selves are the biggest "Cheater", for instance, Mandos is enough to overwhelm the strongest Dragon by to keep resurrecting those dead and use them as endless combat personnel. Or maybe Manwe can blow up Ancalagon like a toy ball.
And the other combat unit of Valinor mostly have no such competence, apart from Majars.

 

[Elthir]

so even who killed Ancalagon is uncertain as well...

Well, not that you aren't drawing this distinction, but I'll draw it anyway: it would be "uncertain" according to my little experiment above -- despite that the prophecy would point to Turin -- which experiment I reserve the right to revise at any moment.

💫

But whether it's "uncertain" according to a given person's definition of canon, or point of view, is another matter.

 

[Alcuin]

For what it’s worth, Silmarillion in “The Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath” says Eärendil killed Ancalagon. Any uncertainty would arise from questions of the “canonicity” of Silmarillion.

 

[Elthir]

Yep, I revised Earendil's slaying of the dragon out of the sentence in the constructed Silmarillion.



Silmarillion canon aside, my experiment above is based on the chronology of Tolkien-written texts. That said, I was hoping you, Alcuin, could refresh my memory on your interpretation of Andreth's prophecy, if taken as internal, or canon, if you like.

I seem to recall you saying something about it not too long ago, but I couldn't find the post!

 

[Alcuin]

Urk! 😖 🤔 To be honest, I had forgotten the reference to Andreth in “The Problem of Ros”. The Second Prophecy of Mandos is a separate matter: I doubt Andreth had independent means of learning of the Dooms of Mandos. Túrin’s fate isn’t mentioned in her debate with Finrod.

 

[Olorgando]

Urk! 😖 🤔 To be honest, I had forgotten the reference to Andreth in “The Problem of Ros”. The Second Prophecy of Mandos is a separate matter: I doubt Andreth had independent means of learning of the Dooms of Mandos. Túrin’s fate isn’t mentioned in her debate with Finrod.

Actually, Andreth is not even mentioned in “The Problem of Ros” text proper, but in that long note 17 to it.
What makes me wonder about Andreth prophesizing anything about Túrin is the fact that this debate with Finrod is supposed to take place about 409 First Age, while Túrin is not even born until 55 years later, in 465 FA - or for that matter even Túrin's father Húrin is not born until 441 FA!
But at least I did not miss anything about that prophecy in the "Arthrabeth", apparently.
But does that actually mean that this ominous prophecy by Andreth about Túrin is really restricted to a footnote to a very late and rather short minor philological article?