Differences between Arnor and Gondor

[Eriol]

Do you suppose there is any reason (beyond story-telling reasons, of course) for the difference in the history of Arnor and Gondor? They both began as free realms under Numenorean rule, and their territory was not so different in size at the beginning; Gondor had more Palantíri, but on the other hand Arnor had more contact with elvish strongholds (Lindon, Imladris).

A way to phrase my question is -- could an independent onlooker at T.A. 10 predict the future of the two realms, and how Gondor would rise in power and strength while Arnor would dwindle and fade? And if yes, why? What was the feature that enabled Gondor to grow while Arnor waned?

I have some thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours...

 

[Celebthôl]

My best guess would be Mordor and Minas Tirith,

Mordor was the chiefest threat to Middle Earth, and if Minas Tirith fell into ruin like realm of the north, the it would be the end of good in Middle Earth...

Also the fact that Arnor had no enemies really and had time to fight with itself, whereas Gondor had the main threat or Mordor and Umbar etc to deal with and couldnt fight within itself as much...only once if i recall (the kin-strife)...

 

[Beleg]

A way to phrase my question is -- could an independent onlooker at T.A. 10 predict the future of the two realms, and how Gondor would rise in power and strength while Arnor would dwindle and fade?

Yes, ever the population of Arnor had been less, while Gondor due to it's rather mild climate was the abode of many people, specially men. Meanwhile Arnor was a still country, it had no way of increasing their land mass, since they were bound by the Misty Mountains on the East, and the sea on the West and the North.
Meanwhile Gondor was a more open land and had more opportunities of increasing it's landmass.
Arnor as a seperate Kingdom itself wouldn't have lasted for long, (as it was shown) due to it's limited population, limited chances of expansion and severer climate.

And In T.A 10, Sauron was thought to be vanquished forever and the Ulairi had disappeared.

The reasons why the two Kingdom's both ended up in different situations.

Disadvantages for Arnor

1. Rough Terrian.
2. Severe Climate
3. Lack of Mannish Population.
4. No chance for expansion.


Since their was no chance for expansion and no threat from any enemies people had a lot of free time and liesure was plenty.
Ideal condition for Conspiracies.

 

[Inderjit S]

Also the fact that Arnor had no enemies really

The Witcking/Angmar.

I think the main disavantage for Arnor was that they had a division of kingdoms, which led to kinstrifes and the war with Angmar.

I think another factor was the ravaging of Eriador in the War of Sauron and the Elves. Arnor and Eriador would've had a huge indeginous population, since there were more faithful Numenoreans settlements there or thereabouts and several other tribes, such as the Borrim and the followes of Bereg plus the Marachians and Beorians who never went to Beleriand (Of Dwarves and Men states that the vanguards reached Beleriand, so there would've been huge amounts of people in Eriador compared to Gondor, where the only indeginous population was small and amde up mainly of the Haladin who later became the Dunlendings and some Druedian.

 

[Eriol]

hmm... in our own world China lived quite well for many centuries without territorial expansion. Is imperialism the only way for a kingdom to prosper?

Terrain and climate can have a role. But I don't think it is that important, and surely Arnor has some territorial advantages. For instance, they have Dwarves, and this means mines, metals, and wealth.

I could give an advantage to Gondor on this, but not as big as it turned out to be.

And then we have population. I agree this is very important, but it really begs the question. Why did Arnor have a smaller population? Remember, they had 1000 years of peace before Angmar appeared. This question goes through the population statistics of Eriador through time, and Inderjit has addressed them some. Was Eriador always a wasteland? It seems not. So why 1000 years of peace were not enough?

The division is obviously harmful, but -- is there any reason why the kingdoms could not be reunified? It is obvious that Rhudaur, for instance, became evil -- could not Cardolan and Arthedain have prevented it and occupied the area?

It seems that the ravages in Arnor were not countered, ever, while Gondor did some smart moves (e.g., Cirion and Eorl) to withstand the passage of time).

Why did Arnor simply accept decay?

 

[Beleg]

hmm... in our own world China lived quite well for many centuries without territorial expansion. Is imperialism the only way for a kingdom to prosper?

Perhaps I forgot to say that the four reasons I pointed out are inter-related. China is a big country with lots of population and to say that the Chinese lived through the centuries without any change would be wrong.
During the 16 to 19th centuries Chinese Empire continuously dwindled and lots of their lands were swamped by the Biritish imprealists and Russian Tsar's.

Is imperialism the only way for a kingdom to prosper?

In some cases yes. Spcially If the country is a very small one and doesn't have enough population to maintain it's soverign state which was the case with Arnor.

For instance, they have Dwarves, and this means mines, metals, and wealth.

The race of Dwarves are pretty miser and I cant really see them giving away lots of good without getting something back as an exchange. Also money cannot produce people. Metal would be off no use if there are not enough people.

Why did Arnor have a smaller population?

During the Dark Age, most of the Arnor was filled with forests, as is explained by the Silmarillion and Fangorn's song. Most of the population is wiped during the wars of Elves and Sauron. What is left of the people retreat towards Rhov and form settlements in the vales of Anduin and further east towards the south and East of Mirkwood. So during the later part of the first age hardly a few natives would have dwelt in Eriador and most of the population would consist of people of mixed (Numenorean+Local) and Numenorean blood.
Of those many were slain during the seige of Brad-Dur and the battle that preceeded it. Many also were slain in Gladden Fields.
Therefore the Northern Kingdom had a limited population on their disposal. Only the cities of Anuminas, Fornost, Barrow Downs and a few towns in Rhudaur, accompanied by the Hill Men living their and the city states of Bree and Shire would be at their disposal. The Ice Men of Forcangel were a race apart and I don't think they meddled in the affairs of Eriador.
During the six hundred years of peace or so, whatever population increase that happened was fed to the Civil War and the allready diminished population became more dwindled.
In Arnor during the third age, following races Dwelt.
Men of Bree.
Numenoreans and men of Mixed Blood.
Occasional wanderes of Enedwaith and the upper region.
The Hill Men
The Ice Men.


Of this population, many were slain during the Civil wars, and infact Cardolan was wiped out entirely and so were the forces of Angmar and Rhuadar.
Most of the Numenorean settlements were made in South.
Thus most of the mixed Numenorean's would be found there and their numbers would be much greater the Arnorians.


Of this population, many were slain during the Civil wars, and infact Cardolan was wiped out entirely and so were the forces of Angmar and Rhuadar.

Was Eriador always a wasteland? It seems not.

No, not always. Infact It never was a complete wasteland.

So why 1000 years of peace were not enough?

I can only say that the population of Arnor was so dwindled during the Last Alliance that the population mounted very slowly.
It may also be that most of the Men of Arnor were lost in Gladden Fields and Dagorlad, this would be a highly unconsistant percentage between Men and Woman. And perhaps since the Numenorean's had had their grooming from elves, who only took one spouse, they also followed that rule, and infact the woman that married during that time were very few, due to the scarcity of Men.

It is obvious that Rhudaur, for instance, became evil -- could not Cardolan and Arthedain have prevented it and occupied the area?

What do you think they tried to do? They tried to overcome Rhudar. But Rhuadar had the support of the Witch King of Angmar, who doubtless also had the support of many servants of Sauron that had gone underground after the diminishment of Sauron but came back again on the beck and call of Witch King.
Perhaps Other Ulairi were at work also?
Perhaps the power of Artherdain was not enough to destroy Rhudaur, since these people lived in the Northern Most regions of Eriador.

Why did Arnor simply accept decay?

How can you say that? What do you think Arnor should have done to prevent decay? The decay was Inevitable, The Kingdom from the start should have been kept United.
For Histories and Prophecies tell us that whenever the Kingdom's were united It ended up as a great plus for them.
Take the Kingdom of Elessar and the Prophecy of Malbeth...

The Arnorian's tried to counter the ravages. They asked for help from their Southern Off-spring. The Elves of Eriador helped them...but due to their diminished population and internal strife (which Witch King used to his great benifit) it was not possible for the Northern Dunedain to continue their Kingdom.

 

[Inderjit S]

Maybe Elendil's Arnorian army ahd suffered a bigger loss in the Last Alliance?

It seems that the ravages in Arnor were not countered, ever, while Gondor did some smart moves (e.g., Cirion and Eorl) to withstand the passage of time).

Yes true but Arnor also had enough similar 'alliances' with Rivendell and Mithlond. They tried to drive away Angmar's forces on several occasions, but were thwarted. Also found this interesting comment on Araval the 23rd Arnorian king;

With the help of Lindon he won a victory over Angmar in 1851, and sought to re-occupy Cardolan, but the evil wights terrify all who dwell near

HoME 12; Heirs of Elendil

So Arnor had other supernatural forces that halted their power as well.

Terrain and climate can have a role. But I don't think it is that important, and surely Arnor has some territorial advantages. For instance, they have Dwarves, and this means mines, metals, and wealth.

Indeed, esp. with Khazad-dum in full power for a long time during Arnor's stability, at a time in which Khazad-dum was at it's greatest strength it would've been a great help, as we can see from Of Dwarves and Men (HoME 12) the Longbeards had established alliances with the Marachian tribes in Eriador and Rhovanion and I see no reason why a small scale version of this couldn't have taken place in the T.A.

I doubt whether the climate would've been too bad, I believe since Tolkien mentions in his letters that Minas Tirith is in the vicinity of Florence, Italy, that Arnor is around about the lattitude of northern Europe and was very much habitable.

Why did Arnor simply accept decay?

Pride of the princes maybe? They wanted a independent realm to rule, rather then share a realm.

 

[Lantarion]

Maybe Elendil's Arnorian army ahd suffered a bigger loss in the Last Alliance?

Perhaps, but would it have affected the general populace that much? I mean, were the warriors of Arnor in the Battle of the Last Alliance composed of civilians or trained soldiers, or both?
I agree with Beleg that the terrain and general living conditions as 'far north' as Arnor was positioned were probably a large affector. After all, Gondor was ideally positioned among between the Ered Nimrais and the river Anduin, giving it an excelent strategic position. Also with the river so close by it must have provided the surrounding areas with lush greenery and most certainly also fertile lands and fields for farming &c. I'd say that the only negative factor, geographically, was the relatively close proximity of Mordor to the East (and indeed this proved to be devastating; i.e. the Great Plague).
But Beleg, you cite the affector of "No chance for expansion" as one of the four reasons contributing to the decay of Arnor. But as far as I can see Gondor was quite confined also. When it had control of the areas to the south of the Ered Nimrais, where else could it turn to? And Gondor also lost a lot of land (even if it was on friendly terms) when they donated Calenardhon to the Rohirrim.

 

[Eriol]

All that you are saying is true, but they still are a consequence of the Arnorian decay, and not the cause:

From Appendix B, The Tale of Years

c. 1300 Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves. The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. The Periannath migrate westward; many settle at Bree

Note the date. 1300 years!

Also at the Tale of Years we see the date of the division of Arnor, T.A. 861. So we have 8 centuries of peace in a unified kingdom with little to no enemies. Compare these 8 centuries with Gondor. Gondor is the one with a lot of enemies at this time. At that time the line of the Ship-kings was beginning, in a century they would take over Umbar... Gondor was quite powerful, while Arnor was already decaying.

From Appendix A:

The lord of that land [Angmar] was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong

Angmar was a consequence of prior disunion. The disunion was a consequence of a weak realm.

Why the weak realm?

I have a strong feeling that it is related to populational problems. But why the populational problems, then?

So far this is just a "scientific inquiry", so to speak. If we go into the theology of it, it seems clear that Eru has a fondness for the theme of the "hidden king". The purpose of Arnor's decay was probably to safeguard the line of Isildur in the shadows until Sauron reappeared.

But what was the material reason, the cause, of the decay?

 

[Inderjit S]

Perhaps, but would it have affected the general populace that much? I mean, were the warriors of Arnor in the Battle of the Last Alliance composed of civilians or trained soldiers, or both?

Well they stopped for three years training in Rivendell so I would think a bit of both. Remember the Last Alliance would need as many men as possible. For example do you really think that all the Rohhirim were trained fighters, yet they went to Helm's Deep etc and this is the case in many wars, civilians are drafted in.

They needed ALL the strength they could muster.

I agree with Beleg that the terrain and general living conditions as 'far north' as Arnor was positioned were probably a large affector

How? Eriador was evidently a better climate for Men, Elves and Dwarves because so many lived there or in surronding areas or in that latitude, such as Erebor. The terrain was evidently very good. The Marahcians were able to graze many animals when passing through also note Hallacar's song to Ancalime about the sheep flocks in Eriador. The Shire had good weather and was once part of Arnor's' realm (Being a former hunting ground for the King). The terrain also had many forests, plains and mountains, a brilliant mixture geogrpahy wise.

I'd say that the only negative factor, geographically, was the relatively close proximity of Mordor to the East (and indeed this proved to be devastating; i.e. the Great Plague

I believe the great plague came from Rhun not Mordor, but I believe it is stated that the plague became less severe as it came further North.

And Gondor also lost a lot of land (even if it was on friendly terms) when they donated Calenardhon to the Rohirrim

They also had further lands to the South, such as South Gondor which was a 'debatable and desert land' because of the kin-strife and it's after effects.

The purpose of Arnor's decay was probably to safeguard the line of Isildur in the shadows until Sauron reappeared

But Malbeth claims that if Arvedui is elected king of Gondor+Arnor then a might realm will arise, but this was only a prophecy. Also can you really see Eru interfering in men's lives?

 

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
But Malbeth claims that if Arvedui is elected king of Gondor+Arnor then a might realm will arise, but this was only a prophecy. Also can you really see Eru interfering in men's lives?

Well, yes... just as he meddles in everything else . Eru governs the world so that "all things concur to the glory of his creation". He would not mess with free will, and undoubtedly if Arvedui had been accepted a lot of misgivings would have been averted, but Eru governs history nonetheless.

Anyway, Eru would govern it through ordinary cause and effect, and therefore we should be able to discern the cause of Arnor's decay.


I was hoping for some comments about the populational structure of the kingdoms. I think it is safe to say that Numenoreans were a minority in both, with the "indigenous population" composing the bulk of it. Now, indigenous population = short-lived, quick breeding population. So I can't see any plain reason why Arnor would not have a large, prosperous population in T.A. 800.

So, people who have read PoME, any info on that?

 

[Lhunithiliel]

An interesting topic!

I just thought that in a way it is related to this one

 

[Beleg]

Re: Difference between Arnor and Gondor

But Beleg, you cite the affector of "No chance for expansion" as one of the four reasons contributing to the decay of Arnor. But as far as I can see Gondor was quite confined also. When it had control of the areas to the south of the Ered Nimrais, where else could it turn to? And Gondor also lost a lot of land (even if it was on friendly terms) when they donated Calenardhon to the Rohirrim.

My dear Lantarion, perhaps, mayhaps you are forgetting that some country known by the Name of Harad was also present south of Gondor and to which Gondor's boundries directly met. The geographical aspects of the Gondor's Southern border were plain enough and provided no hinderance for assualts upon the Southern Teritory.
Upon the east, on the other side of the Anduin, lay the Brown lands, a vast encampment, presumbly unmanned and a famous place for eastern attackers to assualt Gondor.
Gondor ruled Mordor, and Mordor was only encamped from it's Northern and Western Sides. That also provided the Numenorean's/Gondorians with a chance of expansioning inwards towards Khand.
I don't see what the loss of land has to do with this topic. The Northern Boundries of Gondor were mostly secure, up until the coming of the Rohirrim and the rule of Saruman. The Dunelandings feared the Tall, wrathful Numenorean's and never tried to hinder their cause, until or unless they had great support of other enemies, which was difficult to gain so northwards in Gondor.

Perhaps, but would it have affected the general populace that much? I mean, were the warriors of Arnor in the Battle of the Last Alliance composed of civilians or trained soldiers, or both?

Elendil and Gil-Galad needed strength, in numbers and in arms, so the most logical choice to me seems that every able men, whether he be a citizen or a trained Soldier was included in the army for the Last Alliance.
And since the Numbers of the Numenorean's were so few, I daresay their would be a lack of proper army, which would result in the inclusion of every able man.
I mostly concur with Inder here.

Why the weak realm?

I have adressed this before.

If we go into the theology of it, it seems clear that Eru has a fondness for the theme of the "hidden king". The purpose of Arnor's decay was probably to safeguard the line of Isildur in the shadows until Sauron reappeared.

I dont agree with it. Their is no participation of Eru or the providance in this event. The base upon which Arnor was structured was too weak to hold off for a long time. And a strong Arnor would have been much more good in the fight against Sauron. Just because the decay of Arnor was more in line with the coming story doesn't mean it was the most logical choice.
And as you yourself have said, Eru doesn't meddle with Free will, and all these Kingdoms and countries were the result of freewill.
But that might be untrue If we believe that the destiny of Arda was pre-ordained...which I don't believe It was.

But what was the material reason, the cause, of the decay?

Population dminishment.
Internal Quarells
These are the two of the main reasons.

How? Eriador was evidently a better climate for Men, Elves and Dwarves because so many lived there or in surronding areas or in that latitude, such as Erebor

Arnor is found on the same latitude as of Numenor.
Artherdain is found on the same latitude as of probably Hithlum or Northern Neverast.
We are told that the climatic conditions of the later mentioned regions were severer then those in south. What stops us from saying that such would be the case in Arnor?

More "MEN" lived in the southern area's. Dwarves prefered mountains and since most of the bigger mountain regions were in the North, they made their dwellings there.
As for Elves, not many elves loved the Northern, Cold, regions of Beleriand, they prefered the much more climatically and terrain wise mild regions of Southern Beleriand.

North of the shire It snowed in Winter. That's an obvious disadvantage in Winter.
and most of the living places of the Dunedain in Arnor were north of Shire
Gondor is much closer to the griddle of Arda, yet not as close as Harad. So you would find a much more temperate climate there, compared to both Harad (hot) and Arnor (some regions, cold).

I am not saying that Eriador was a total wasteland, but if we look on a general scale, Gondor was much more fertile then Arnor.

Well, yes... just as he meddles in everything else . Eru governs the world so that "all things concur to the glory of his creation". He would not mess with free will, and undoubtedly if Arvedui had been accepted a lot of misgivings would have been averted, but Eru governs history nonetheless.

Well, If he doesn't meddle with free will, as you say, then how does he govern History.

I was hoping for some comments about the populational structure of the kingdoms.

The Percentage of the Indigenous population was probably greater in Gondor, since Numenorean's had made most of their earlier, second-age settlements south. We are told that Sindarian was mostly spoken only in Minas Tirith and the adjacent town-lands, and is implied that also possibly in Dol-Amroth. The Lords of Dol-Amroth were of high Numenorean origin, so It is possible that most of the population of Dol-Amroth still existing would be Numenorean's or mixed. People of Ithilien might also be of Numenorean origin, since the house of Stewards was originally called the House of Hurin of Emyn Arnen. Hurin was a men of pure Numenorean race and It is probable that many of the people living in his lands were also of his clan and thus wholly or partially Numenorean. The folks south in Lebinnin and Belfalas would were probably mixed breeders, with few families, possibly of the Lords, of Numenorean Origin. The people of Langstrand would be mostly natives, due to the existance of Druedain in that area and due to the closeness of Dunland.
As for the people of Lebennin and area's east of Belfalas,

The townlands were rich, with wide tilth and many orchards, and homesteads there were with oast and garner, fold and byre, and many rills rippling through the green from the highlands down to Anduin. Yet the herdsmen and husbandmen that dwelt there were not many, and the most part of the people of Gondor lived in the seven circles of the City, or in the high vales of the mountain-borders, in Lossarnach, or further south in fair Lebennin with its five swift streams. There dwelt a hardy folk between the mountains and the sea. They were reckoned men of Gondor, yet their blood was mingled, and there were short and swarthy folk among them whose sires came more from the forgotten men who housed in the shadow of the hills in the Dark Years ere the coming of the kings

It has to be noted that most of the chiefs of the Southern Fiefs were heridatory lords, and I think might have some Numenorean blood in them.

Another possible Numenorean race dominated area is upper vales of Morthond.

From the uplands of Morthond, the great Blackroot Vale, tall Duinhir with his sons, Duilin and Derufin, and five hundred bowmen

The original dwellers of Gondor was short and swarthy, and the indication of the form "tall" suggests to me that these people have Numenorean blood in them.

Hirluin the Fair of the Green Hills from Pinnath Gelin with three hundreds of gallant green-clad men

This one perhaps Numenorean also.

***

Inderjit, I think will be able to answer the claims about Arnorian population percentage better, since he is better versed then me in these matters.
But an offshot theory is,
Artherdain, predominantly Numenorean.
Cardolan, mild presence of Numenoreans and some mixed elements. Possibly some Southern Men from the regions of EnedWaith and Minnihirath.
Rhuadar, Very few Numenoreans. Most of the people are Hillmen that are mentioned as living in Eatten Moors and surroundings.
Anuminas as a city, predominantly Numenorean. Fornost, probably a bit more mixed due to the passing of the centuries.
It might also be said that people of mixed Origin will be few in Arnor compared to Gondor due to the lack of diversity of clans compared to Gondor.

***

So I can't see any plain reason why Arnor would not have a large, prosperous population in T.A. 800.

I have theories in answer to this, but nothing really solid.

 

[Inderjit S]

Well, yes... just as he meddles in everything else . Eru governs the world so that "all things concur to the glory of his creation". He would not mess with free will, and undoubtedly if Arvedui had been accepted a lot of misgivings would have been averted, but Eru governs history nonetheless.

And how exactly is Arnor's decay a result of Eru's actions or meddling? It was a slow, gradual phase caused by several events, the Last Alliance, the separation of the Kingdoms, Angmar.

Can you also give examples of Eru's meddling in Arda where he had given the Valar leave the judge. (apart from when the Valar asked him to help or in a special case, the gradual deterioration.

The Northern Boundries of Gondor were mostly secure, up until the coming of the Rohirrim and the rule of Saruman. The Dunelandings feared the Tall, wrathful Numenorean's and never tried to hinder their cause, until or unless they had great support of other enemies, which was difficult to gain so northwards in Gondor.

Thinking in such a logic means that their could have easily been 'one kingdom' co-joined. Arnor stretched far-south, occupying most of Eriador as is told in the Appendix, and Gondor and Arnor could have met, easily and Southern expansion was certainly possible but could the Gondorians really be bothered to house a decaying realm? It would've been too hard to keep hold of all the land north+south, besides the Dunlendings could have migrated back to their old realm of Miniraith. (Where they were driven out by the Numenoreans.)

As for Elves, not many elves loved the Northern, Cold, regions of Beleriand, they prefered the much more climatically and terrain wise mild regions of Southern Beleriand.

I think that the population division was even-ish. Doriath and Eglorest and Nargothrond are southwards, and were the two largest realms, but Himring, Dorthonion, Tol Sirion, Hithlum, and Gondolin were all north. Note the Numenoreans words in Tal-Elmar 'The Eldar don’t come this far south' or something like that. An interesting point here, maybe the Noldor preferred the cold, northern clime? They established realms there in Beleriand, whilst the Sindar/Sylvan elves for the most part lived to the South (Apart from the Northern Sindar of course ) but even they went to Doriath. i mean Lothlorien, the Haven in Dol Amroth, are further south then some Noldorin realms, like Rivendell, and even the Sylvan Elves of Mirkwood originally lived to the south of the forest (Amon Lanc was a Sylvan fortress which later became Dol Guludur) but Oropher removed further North due to a disdain for Galadriel and Celeborn's intrusion's

Maybe the Numenorenas preffered the Northern climes, whilst 'other men' didn't? A 'trait' from their Atanic forefathers maybe?

Tolkien comments that there were far more people populating Gondor and it's fiefs then Elves who spoke Sindarin, in one of his letters-that is the only population info. I can find right now.

Of Dwarves and Men claims the Sindarin was a noble language in Godnor at the time of the WoTJ. It claims Adunaic was disused because it had lost it's nobility and Sindarin had become prevelant (hence the Sindarin place names), but the 'vulgar tounge' was taking over.

Belehg the info. you have given ic correct and is pretty much re-iterated in the Apendix A.

 

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Population dminishment.
Internal Quarells
These are the two of the main reasons.

We have pretty much established that. This was, of course, my original impression -- but this is not the point of my question. The "why" I am asking is directed at precisely those factors -- why the population diminishment? Why the quarrels? Why was Gondor able to keep a strong and unified rule while Arnor was not?

Those two factors you presented are not visible in T.A. 10, Beleg. How could an independent observer determine which kingdom, if any, would fall prey to strife and population diminishment? That is the interesting question, in my opinion. Perhaps there is some climatic relation, but it is weak, I think... is there nothing else or was it just "bad luck"? Why was Arnor already weak and Gondor strong in T.A. 800, before Angmar, before the division of the realm?

Division and Angmar are a result of this failing, not a cause.

Posted by Inderjit S

Can you also give examples of Eru's meddling in Arda where he had given the Valar leave the judge.

Bilbo's finding of the Ring. Gollum in Mount Doom.

Everything which is largely ascribed to "luck" is under Eru's province. You see, of course, how he could meddle in this way, don't you? Without touching free will at all.

Gandalf, who knew Him personally , ascribed Bilbo's finding of the Ring to Eru's "meddling", quite plainly.

And luck is everywhere. This does NOT mean foreordainment, Beleg -- free will prevents that. It means that if people screw up, Eru can usually find a way to put things "back on track". And in the end, the story of Arda will be a drama weaved by the free personal choices, with the hand of Eru in the background.

Put in another way, Arnor had such bad luck that undoubtedly Eru did not oppose her decay. I would phrase it a bit stronger, as I did, and say that the decay actually had a purpose.



I don't think the carrying capacity of the lands, the fact that Gondor is more fertile, is a big issue. The two cultures were twins and could evidently trade a lot. Sweden is also unable to grow her own food, but is surviving quite well.

I can't figure out the history of those first centuries of Arnor. It seems as if nothing happened, the Kings stayed looking at the Stars, and cities were falling in decay... and I can't see why. I don't understand why what happened in the Shire after 1600 did not happen in Arnor in her first centuries.



Cities should have been swelling. Trade should have been booming. Harvests should be plentiful.

It's very odd, how an advanced culture can simply disintegrate. You could ascribe it to monstrous incompetence of the Kings, but even so, the people don't mind the managing skill of the Kings -- they should be swelling in numbers, whatever the Kings did. This scenario would end in "city-states" like Bree, but many. Why only one?

This may be a nit-picking, but wasn't Númenor a bit to the south of Eriador's latitude? I remember reading that in UT, vaguely... It really does not matter, because an island will have a climate quite unlike that of a land between two mountain chains, anyway.

 

[Lantarion]

This may be a nit-picking, but wasn't Númenor a bit to the south of Eriador's latitude? I remember reading that in UT, vaguely... It really does not matter, because an island will have a climate quite unlike that of a land between two mountain chains, anyway.

In fact, according to the Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth (revised edition), Númenor is situated some one thousand miles south of Middle-earth itself, or that part of north-western Middle-earth as is dealt with in the LotR.
And after all I'm somewhat inclined to agree with Inderjit about the geographical aspects of Arnor. The Kingdom was situated around the Shire, whose lands are described as fertile and lush on several occasions. So although Arthedain was spread over a wide area, northwards, the climatic conditions certainly would be no different from those of the Shire, and I see no indication that the terrain and/or farming possibilities had been any worse.
Beren: haha, thanks for correcting me.. I was just looking over the realms and kingdoms of the northern Dúnedain (which I haven't done for years), and realized that Gondor was a true super-power in those times in the sense of occupation. Sorry.

Cities should have been swelling. Trade should have been booming. Harvests should be plentiful.

It's very odd, how an advanced culture can simply disintegrate. You could ascribe it to monstrous incompetence of the Kings, but even so, the people don't mind the managing skill of the Kings -- they should be swelling in numbers, whatever the Kings did. This scenario would end in "city-states" like Bree, but many. Why only one?

I can't help but agree and wonder why such a prosperous-seeming enterprise as the kingdom of Arnor fell as it did.. The only (frugal) 'evidence' I can provide as a possibility is this quote from Appendix A:

The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain
After Elendil and Isildur there were eight High Kings of Arnor. After Eärendur, owing to dissensions among his sons their realm was divided into three: Arthedain, Rhudaur and Cardolan. ...

But even this was well after the decrepification of the kingdom had begun (which had ben continuing since TA2).

 

[Inderjit S]

Gandalf, who knew Him personally , ascribed Bilbo's finding of the Ring to Eru's "meddling", quite plainly.

Yes that was a significant singuilar that greatly effected the outcome of M-E history, As I said:

Can you also give examples of Eru's meddling in Arda where he had given the Valar leave the judge. (apart from when the Valar asked him to help or in a special case,

How was the decline of Arnor a 'major event'? It was a slow, gradual process due to the folly of men and the enemy not because of the actions of one supremely powerful individual. Whenever Eru takes part in Arda's events, it is a individual event, such as the Destruction of Numenor. Arnor's fall held no relevance to the latter events of M-E. It was simply a weakened and divided kingdom, which was strategically important (for Sauron) to destroy, which he did.

Put in another way, Arnor had such bad luck that undoubtedly Eru did not oppose her decay. I would phrase it a bit stronger, as I did, and say that the decay actually had a purpose.

What has Eru's opposing of Arnor's decay, or lack of it got to do with it? He never stepped in when say the Noldorin or Edainic kingdoms were decaying or Gondor. Eru, is a all-knowing god, he would know what would happen.

Put in another way, Arnor had such bad luck that undoubtedly Eru did not oppose her decay. I would phrase it a bit stronger, as I did, and say that the decay actually had a purpose.

Well it is evidently a 'stable' kingdom until the division of the kingdom:

In Arthedain the line of the Isildur was maintained and endured, but the line soon perished in Rhuduar and Cardolan. There was often strife amongst the kingdoms, which hastened the waining of the Dunedain. .

Appendix A

Arnor seems to have suffered from much war and affliction in it's early years.

Found this quote from Of the Rings of Power; Published Silmarillion

Valandil took up his abode in Annuminas, but his folk was diminished, and of the Numenoreans and the men of Eriador there remained to few people the land or to maintain all the places that Elendil had built ; In Dagorlad and upon the Gladden fields many had fallen

So we can see Arnor had suffered more due to the ravages of war then Gondor, maybe because Elendil and Arnor went to Dagorlad sooner then Anarion who had been besieged can came a little later. Arnor, had a smaller population then Gondor and we can see the lack of people being able to man the wide lands was seen later on in Gondor after the kinstrife, plague etc.

This may be a nit-picking, but wasn't Númenor a bit to the south of Eriador's latitude?

Andustar/Anduine where most the faithful come from is in the N-E tip of Numenor therefore it would've been a little colder there and prob. on the same latitude as Eriador. Eriador wasn't really THAT northwards, looking at it, in the Appendix I think it is said that Gundabad is 800 miles from the northern most tip of Arda. (I think.)

In fact, according to the Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth (revised edition), Númenor is situated some one thousand miles south of Middle-earth itself, or that part of north-western Middle-earth as is dealt with in the LotR

I'd be VERY careful in giving non-Tolkien sources as fact. That distance seems to much for me. The Dunedain set off from Northern M-E in what seems to be straight direction.

 

[Eriol]

I don't see the intrinsic difference between "special cases" and "everyday cases", and why Eru would not meddle with everyday cases. The method is subtle and does not touch free will, as Bilbo's example show.

If we know of the special cases, it is because, well, they are special . Our ignorance of meddling in everyday events does not rule it out.

This distinction of "special" and "everyday" is quite hazy, anyway, and mostly based on hindsight. Bilbo had no inkling that by not killing Gollum he was saving Middle-Earth.

And the decay of Arnor is not 'a major event'? Why? Would not the history of Arda be very much different if this decay had not happened? And does not Eru govern the history of Arda, as he said in the Ainulindalë?

And, in a sense, to say that it is a minor event in the story of Middle-Earth is to assume that the line of Isildur would have survived if it did not go into the shadows. We saw that the line of Anárion, in a strong and vibrant realm, failed to do that.

I don't think the line of Isildur is 'a minor factor' in T.A. history.

But theology is a side track in this discussion. I can readily believe that Arnor was more hurt by the War of the Last Alliance against Sauron. But 800 years seems enough to heal these wounds. In that period the population in Gondor was swelling, but not so in Arnor... or at least not at the same rate.

 

[Inderjit S]

And the decay of Arnor is not 'a major event'? Why? Would not the history of Arda be very much different if this decay had not happened? And does not Eru govern the history of Arda, as he said in the Ainulindalë?

And what would that difference have been exactly? They would ahve had a powerful North kingdom? Maybe eventually the Gondorian pride would have yielded and the there would have been a united kingdom? Maybe Arnor would have taken the Northmen's place as the saving grace of Gondor in their battle against the Easterlings? Maybe it would have worked out better if Arnor had not decayed, in the long run.

But the fate of men is in their own hands. That choice to do what they wanted-to be free from the music. Bilbo didn't have to kill Gollum but it was his free will and choice, in the end Eru couldn't make him do anything. Sure he may have ordained his finding of the Ring, but did he effect his greater choice? Nope.

Surely if Eru had this 'saving grace' then why didn't he just 'guide' other men and meddle in their affairs? As described in the Athrabeth Finrdo ah Andreth men were a fallen race and due to their pride they had usurped his gifts. He tells them that they should seek to find answers himself, he was not their/a guide that they would take greater pleasure from the finding out-so why would Eru go against his own advice? Why would he meddle in Men's affairs?

But 800 years seems enough to heal these wounds.

Yes but look at the quote I have provided, there numbers were too few too re-populate. Maybe there were high number of male casualties and their replenishment was slow. The Appendix mentions that Numenorean men usually wedded when they were quite old, and here their lifespan was quite long so in hindsight 800 yrs wouldn't have made for many Numenorean generations and so re-population may have been slower?

 

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Surely if Eru had this 'saving grace' then why didn't he just 'guide' other men and meddle in their affairs? As described in the Athrabeth Finrdo ah Andreth men were a fallen race and due to their pride they had usurped his gifts. He tells them that they should seek to find answers himself, he was not their/a guide that they would take greater pleasure from the finding out-so why would Eru go against his own advice? Why would he meddle in Men's affairs?

Well, I never said that he messed with people's choices. The point is, for example -- if Bilbo had killed Gollum I am positive that some other way would be found to defeat Sauron. And that is due to Eru.

That quote of the Ainulindalë (which I don't have here ) about everything working for the glory of Eru is pretty conclusive, Inderjit -- it means that even if I consciously choose to thwart Eru's plans, I won't be able to do it. Due to Eru's governance, no doubt.

The alternative is absolute foreordainment, which is discussed in many places in TTF... and which means that Eru is the big villain in the story. I don't see it that way, and I doubt that Tolkien would.

Yes but look at the quote I have provided, there numbers were too few too re-populate. Maybe there were high number of male casualties and their replenishment was slow. The Appendix mentions that Numenorean men usually wedded when they were quite old, and here their lifespan was quite long so in hindsight 800 yrs wouldn't have made for many Numenorean generations and so re-population may have been slower?

These population growth rates would apply only to Numenoreans. What about the common folk? The Breelanders & Co.? I think it is safe to say that the bulk of Arnor's population was composed of non-Numenoreans... Numenorean growth rate is not likely to be a major factor -- as it was not in Gondor.

Even so, the growth population rate is not really proportional to the number of men, the number of women is more important -- even assuming strict monogamy, as we surely can do in this case. The number of pregnancies per woman is the limiting factor.

Numenoreans had a slow-growing population, and few children -- but in an environment of peace and wide lands, larger families would be naturally encouraged.

But even so I believe that Numenorean growth rate is secondary. I wonder at the Dunlendings and their relatives. Even if they did not live in Arnor, they would surely migrate there if there was land and peace and a stable realm.

These conditions are sure to foster a growing population, be it by increased birth rates, or by migration. And what happened in Arnor was the opposite.

This is the enigma.