ZehnWaters
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- Nov 29, 2020
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I think I just like the idea that it was flat until Eru moved it into a different reality.Tolkien was musing about round world notions well before the MT texts. In my opinion the idea wasn't ultimately an attempt, nor ultimately a revision . . . as I think it ultimately became part of a multi-perspective legendarium, alongside flat-world notions.
My theory is that it was not to be part of the Quenta Silmarillion tradition, but part of the Fall of Numenor traditions (plural), for example.
Hm. Was this when he made Melkor more powerful than all of the other Ainur combined and he dispersed his essence through all of creation?I still don't. really, Though much of Hostetter's NoMe seems to have that as a given (I've only read it once, so far). No, one part when he totally puffed up Melkor to - I'm woefully (or not) ignorant of the celluloid or magnetic tape or more recent electronic storage systems "mythologies" - a kind of Arda-Q (that strange "The Next Generation" guy portrayed by John de Lancie, to my limited memory of the series). When I read that, I was asking myself if someone had slipped JRRT some illegal "pipe-weed" lookalikes into the tobacco pouch he was using that day. More generally speaking, I was wondering if he was drifting towards Sci-Fi ...
Ah. I didn't mind that but I didn't read what Tolkien had actually written, only a summary. Though it's odd that Melkor would have been that much more powerful than literally ALL of his kin and then to diminish to someone less powerful than Sauron (jinkies, can you imagine how disorienting that would have been?). Still, the idea of him dispersing his essence throughout all of creation makes a lot of the story work a little better (it explains why there was so much destruction when the Ainur fought him and why they were so hesitant to do so again it would also explain how Sauron's ring could make him more powerful (he's essentially tapping into someone else's power).Yup.
It rather sounds as if Elves had only one generation per age of Arda. The Valar fought and imprisoned Melkor to protect the Elves that Oromë discovered awakened in Cuiviénen. Melkor was imprisoned for three ages. Finwë was from Cuiviénen, and there seems to have been at least one generation of Elves before Finwë and Elwë (Elu Thingol), because I recall that Círdan is described as being related to Thingol. The Elves that agreed to go to Aman apparently hiked to Beleriand and from there were transported to Aman: that was apparently the first age of Melkor’s imprisonment.
In Letter 210 (complaining about the film proposal of Morton Grady Zimmerman, who was not, apparently a professional film writer), Tolkien wrote of the Nazgûl,[C]an someone explain the Ringwraiths to me in terms of power? They're clearly lesser than Balrogs, Dragons, and Sauron, yet they're treated as terrifying weapons in Sauron's hands.
Tolkien describes the Third Age as a period of decay. The civilizations of the Elves, the Dwarves, and of the Dúnedain all decay during this period. Part of this, I believe, was the influence of the Three Rings of Power of the Elves. These were made to “preserv[e] the memory of the beauty of old, maintain[] enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West.” (From the long Letter 131 to Milton Waldman.) And in Letter 154, he wrote,I think it's also fair to say that things in the 3rd and 4th Age are simply more mundane in their advancement. We don't see the creation, for instance, of anything like the Elessar or palantíri. While Andúril is reforged, we don't see the creation of any other legendary blades (like Anglachel, Anguirel, Glamdring, Orcrist, or even Sting). Even fancy new buildings seem to be the province of, at the latest, the first third of the 3rd Age. Beyond that we simply seen improvements or smaller scale building.
As for the Olog-hai (Black Speech, I suspect, for “great troll”), I have a strong suspicion Sauron developed them from Entwives. Notice the description of Treebeard when Merry and Pippin first meet him in Two Towers (“Treebeard”):
I think the Ruling Ring worked like malware in a computer: It allowed Sauron to see into the thoughts, minds, and motivations of the other wielders of the Rings of Power, and made them susceptible to his suggestions and promptings. Sauron had a rather overwhelming personality (and ego), enough to completely dominate a Man, and seeming enough to dominate an Elf, since the Smiths of Eregion removed the Rings of Power as soon as they became aware of Sauron’s betrayal. (Dwarves were not susceptible to Sauron’s dominion, nor apparently could Sauron see into their minds using these means, though he could inflame their greed and avarice.)…Sauron's ring could make him more powerful (he's essentially tapping into someone else's power).
I concur.I just like the idea that it was flat until Eru moved it into a different reality.
Gee, I rather like it, particularly his musings upon Melkor Morgoth’s nihilism and Sauron’s increasing megalomania."Myths Transformed" … is the absolute low point of JRRT's writing
I'm still trying to figure this out. Did they just stop having kids? The 2nd and 3rd Ages saw long stretches of peace yet the Noldor and Sindar seem to have had their numbers stagnate or decrease.
Okay, can someone explain the Ringwraiths to me in terms of power? They're clearly lesser than Balrogs, Dragons, and Sauron, yet they're treated as terrifying weapons in Sauron's hands. I guess compared to Orcs and Trolls they're clearly more powerful and skilled but it still seems like a significant downgrade from what Melkor had.
I think it's also fair to say that things in the 3rd and 4th Age are simply more mundane in their advancement. We don't see the creation, for instance, of anything like the Elessar or palantíri. While Andúril is reforged, we don't see the creation of any other legendary blades (like Anglachel, Anguirel, Glamdring, Orcrist, or even Sting). Even fancy new buildings seem to be the province of, at the latest, the first third of the 3rd Age. Beyond that we simply seen improvements or smaller scale building.
Power, control, and numbers seem to be just as large or larger, however. Skill of the people fighting, HOW they fight. Sauron's forces increased in native power (Olog-Hai & Uruk-Hai). But even these breedings seem less...supernatural than the original creation of the Orcs and Trolls.
I guess they're just slow reproducers. They need to start channeling Fëanor and Nerdanel in that regard.Elves had few kids and lost many due to war and those returning to the west.
I just...I'm having a hard time quantifying their power. Saruman and Radagast were petrified of them. Gandalf THE WHITE admits he doesn't know if the Witch-King is greater than him (my dude, you killed a BALROG!). Yet The Witch-King fled from Glorfindel. So I'm just not sure how to place them.Durin's Bane was not under Saurons control and yes a balrog or large dragon was more powerful than a Ringwraith. I agree the strength or Morgoth's armies was in having dragons and balrogs [how many?] but I would argue it seems everything else was improved over time under Sauron. But i was just mentioning the ringwraiths as one example of third age power increase.
Yeah. I guess some of the advancements just seem more mundane. Or maybe just fewer.I would say the rings of power were an advancement. Along with various siege equipment, Galadriel's mirror, dwarves improved armour, breeding of orcs, mumakil, Nazgul, there were improvements to fort etc. But the early crafts passed down so were available to the later ages, plus the new editions over time that was created or improved. So for example, while Fenor was not creating Palantir anymore, they were used in later ages.
Tolkien fluctuated heavily on this in NoME. The could have been the grandsons to Imin, Tata, and Enel or their very distant descendants (with Ingwë being of the one generation higher).It rather sounds as if Elves had only one generation per age of Arda. The Valar fought and imprisoned Melkor to protect the Elves that Oromë discovered awakened in Cuiviénen. Melkor was imprisoned for three ages. Finwë was from Cuiviénen, and there seems to have been at least one generation of Elves before Finwë and Elwë (Elu Thingol), because I recall that Círdan is described as being related to Thingol.
I guess that makes sense. It's just...odd since the Second and Third Ages last over 6000 years. You'd think at least a couple of generations would get born. I just like elves and want more of them.In the Third Age, Elrond and Celebrían have three children that live into the Fourth Age. So it isn’t that the Elves stopped having children, it’s just that they reproduced slowly in comparison with Dwarves, whose Third Age generations were about 100 years and who lived on average to about 250 years, and especially with Men. (Dúnedain (Númenóreans) are said to have lived on average three times longer than normal Men, 210 years at first, and their kings to about 400 years for the first 14 generations, so their population also grew more slowly than ours.)
I am curious, just how large and populated WAS Lindon in the Third Age? It seems to have been VERY powerful in the Second Age (since that's where ALL of the remaining Noldor went) but in the Third Age the non-Silvan elves have largely retreated to VERY small population centers.Certainly none of the four major centers of remaining Elven power Tolkien mentions – Lindon, Rivendell, Lórien, or the Forest kingdom – could any longer project significant military power, though no doubt they remained tough defensively, as both Thranduil’s kingdom and Lórien proved during the War of the Ring.
Not to get off topic but I actually had a nightmare where a floating head did this. It was entirely terrifying. Took me a couple of hours to recover.Later, the Witch-king spoke “in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone”
So the Witch-King was roughly on par with an Istar. I can handle that quantification.In Letter 210 (complaining about the film proposal of Morton Grady Zimmerman, who was not, apparently a professional film writer), Tolkien wrote of the Nazgûl,
Their peril [i.e., the Ringwraiths’] is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others…The Witch-king was also able to break Frodo’s barrow-blade by uttering a spell while attempting to cross the Ford of Bruinen to attack him, and I think the Nazgûl in Bree had an effect upon the Ring that made it try to expose itself, as was revealed (or concealed) when Frodo fell from the table in The Prancing Pony.
(“Siege of Gondor”) so that
…the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.Gandalf described the Witch-king as a great “sorcerer,” and if he was, as seems certain, in life a great Númenórean lord, then he was also in life a great warrior and leader of Men as well. The same might be true of Khamûl the Black Easterling before his Ring of Power consumed him.
Hm. So the 4th age might have been one of recovery (like the Second Age had been). I can get behind that.Tolkien describes the Third Age as a period of decay. The civilizations of the Elves, the Dwarves, and of the Dúnedain all decay during this period.
A concept I can definitely understand.Part of this, I believe, was the influence of the Three Rings of Power of the Elves. These were made to “preserv[e] the memory of the beauty of old, maintain[] enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West.” (From the long Letter 131 to Milton Waldman.) And in Letter 154, he wrote,
It's certainly an idea. It would make sense and matches well with my theory of how the orcs were made via breeding with Maiaric Boldogs.As for the Olog-hai (Black Speech, I suspect, for “great troll”), I have a strong suspicion Sauron developed them from Entwives. Notice the description of Treebeard when Merry and Pippin first meet him in Two Towers (“Treebeard”):Nothing definitive, but suggestive, I think, of some relationship between the descriptions of Ents and “hill-trolls”, if these “hill-trolls” are, as I suspect, Olog-hai.
That's similar to how I've analogized it. It works on the same computer code, which is why he could hack into the Three despite having never touched them.I think the Ruling Ring worked like malware in a computer: I
Oh, I was unclear. I mostly meant he likely could use it to tap into that latent corruption Melkor left in every particle of the world. Because that corruption wasn't HIS power it meant he wasn't disseminating himself, he was tapping into a resource that was already there.Whether or not he could “tap into someone else’s power” is not clear to me, though perhaps he could.
It's a mixed bag. I like a lot of it but the attempt to rewrite the history was defintely something I DIDN'T like.Gee, I rather like it, particularly his musings upon Melkor Morgoth’s nihilism and Sauron’s increasing megalomania.
I guess they're just slow reproducers. They need to start channeling Fëanor and Nerdanel in that regard.
I just...I'm having a hard time quantifying their power. Saruman and Radagast were petrified of them. Gandalf THE WHITE admits he doesn't know if the Witch-King is greater than him (my dude, you killed a BALROG!). Yet The Witch-King fled from Glorfindel. So I'm just not sure how to place them.
Yeah. I guess some of the advancements just seem more mundane. Or maybe just fewer.
Ooof. I've skimmed it. Lots of mathematical equations.
Ah, fair.Yes i agree, it is a bit confusing. I would say Gandalf was not sure of himself vs the balrog either. I think however the witch king was given a bit extra strength by Sauron before the attack on Minas Tirith but I could be wrong on that. Also, I would say Gandalf's power was like Elrond in wisdom. Not that his "power" was not an ability to fight 1v1 as he showed, but power can have many meanings in Tolkien world. Also, Glorfindel was a bad as@ who also killed a balrog and his power was in fighting. The peoples of ME indicates that when he returned after his death he reached the power of a maiar.
JRRT once confessed, in a letter, to being a "natural niggler".Ooof. I've skimmed it. Lots of mathematical equations.
Totally agreed, ways to show power had multiple ways, even combat records might be due to not only physical strength but intelligence and blood-thrust as well. Such as Pippin's record of killing trolls, and even Balrog's suicide attack VS Gandalf.Yes i agree, it is a bit confusing. I would say Gandalf was not sure of himself vs the balrog either. I think however the witch king was given a bit extra strength by Sauron before the attack on Minas Tirith but I could be wrong on that. Also, I would say Gandalf's power was like Elrond in wisdom. Not that his "power" was not an ability to fight 1v1 as he showed, but power can have many meanings in Tolkien world. Also, Glorfindel was a bad as@ who also killed a balrog and his power was in fighting. The peoples of ME indicates that when he returned after his death he reached the power of a maiar.
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