Gandalfs role in post-moria ⚔️war of the ring

[Anamatar IV]

The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.'

Gandalf to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. The coming of Gandalf obviously marks the turning point in the war of the ring towards the west. But how great exactly was Gandalfs role in the war of the ring after his return?

There suddenly upon a ridge appeared a rider, clad in white, shining in
the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind him,
hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot; their swords
were in their hands. Amid them strode a man tall and strong. His shield was
red. As he came to the valley's brink, he set to his lips a great black horn
and blew a ringing blast.
'Erkenbrand!' the Riders shouted. 'Erkenbrand!'
'Behold the White Rider!' cried Aragorn. 'Gandalf is come again!'
'Mithrandir, Mithrandir!' said Legolas. 'This is wizardry indeed! Come!
I would look on this forest, ere the spell changes.'
The hosts of Isengard roared, swaying this way and that, turning from
fear to fear. Again the horn sounded from the tower. Down through the breach
of the Dike charged the king's company. Down from the hills leaped
Erkenbrand, lord of Westfold. Down leaped Shadowfax, like a deer that runs
surefooted in the mountains. The White Rider was upon them, and the terror
of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their
faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and
spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled. Wailing they
passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever
came again.

So Gandalf made a heoric rescue of Erkenbrand and returned at the climatic moment of Helms Deep. So Gandalf turned the tide of this battle. It is obvious that without Gandalf Rohan would have been demolished in Helms Deep despite a valiant attempt by the king and Aragorn and the battle of the pelennor would have been lost for Gandalf strove with the witchking and prevent him from entering the city. But my question to you is would Gandalf have the same effect upon the war of the ring if he had not fallen in Moria?

 

[Gil-Galad]

I'm not quite sure whether it would have the same effect,if he didn't fall in Moria,but it's obvious he is changed.Maybe he decided to show his real power(in the Silmarillion is said about him that he is one of the Maiar of greatest importance).I think that the battle with the Balrog was on time and things really changed after it.Also Gandalf was very precised in every of his actions.He knew what to do in every moment,because he had matched and understood. all previous things that had happened.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

But my question to you is would Gandalf have the same effect upon the war of the ring if he had not fallen in Moria?

No, I do not think that Gandalf would have had the same effect on the War of the Ring had he not fallen into Moria. The way I look at it is this: I believe that Gandalf was supposed to fall into Moria because it was in Iluvatar's plan not only for him but for ME as well. If Gandalf had not fallen into Moria then he would not have been given the rights to be the head and Eldest of the Istari. He died for that purpose to be ordained to that level so that he could accomplish all the works that Iluvatar planned for him to do. If Gandalf had not received this ordination he would not have been able to strip from Saruman the rights to be counted among the Istari, and he would not have been able to do the deeds that he did because his power would not have been great enough. Gandalf took Saruman's place at the head of the Istari and became White instead of Gray. The removal of Saruman and replacement of Gandalf in his position was, I believe, one of the deciding factors in the War of the Ring.

 

[aragil]

I think he would have had a much greater effect- of course, in a different way. He would have gone with the Ringbearer, and so would have had Sam and Frodo across the Emyn Muil, over the Dead Marshes, through the Morannon, and into Orodruin all by mid-February (long before Saruman attacks Rohan or Sauron attacks Gondor). This would have been accomplished via the Eagles, who always seemed to be at his beck-and-call. Too bad he had to go White!

 

[Celebthôl]

I think that if Gandalf didnt become the white than the "erhum goddies" would have lost because no-one would have followed him they didnt even really like him and kept telling him too go away, but when he revealed him as being he white they worked with him, also Aragorn wouldn't have gotten help through the passes of the dead because he wouldnt have gotten the seeing stone of Orthanc, seeing as Gandalf wouldnt have made the impression he did on Saruman and Wormtougne and Wormrtougne wouldn't have thrown the seeing stone at him, also Gandalf wouldn't have gotten the help from that bloke (i forgotten his name the one who arrives late at helms deep).

Thôl

 

[Anamatar IV]

That bloke would be Erkenbrand.

As for mt two cents on this: I think that the West would have failed if Gandalf hadnt fallen. As you said, Celebthol, it was Gandalf being the White and the head of the council thay made Rohan accept his counsel. Gandalf persuaded Theoden to forsake Grima. Also I believe that Gandalf would not have been able to face the witch king in his Gray attire.

 

[Confusticated]

This thread is very much related to this one:

Gandalf's Choice - Folly for Foreseen

 

[aragil]

If Gandalf hadn't fallen there would have been no need to help Rohan or to confront Saruman or the Witch King. Gandalf's plan had been to head East with the Ring Bearer, not West to Edoras and Minas Tirith. The company lost all sense of urgency after GtG's fall in Moria- they waited around in Lorien for a full month! Of course, if GtG hadn't fallen then the company wouldn't have needed so much time to heal in the Golden Wood. Had the Ring gone into Orodruin a month earlier (assuming it still took Gandalf, Sam and Frodo as long as it took the two Hobbits alone, which is doubtfull) then all manner of things would have been different- Gondor could have helped Rohan against Saruman, and they would have had Boromir and Faramir there to lead the charge.

 

[Celebthôl]

but if gandalf hadnt fallen then Pip and Mer wouldnt have been taken coz he would have saved them and they would have gone to mordor another way and succeded maybe (very vague)

Thôl

 

[aragil]

That's what I'm saying. Of course this is pure speculation, but I think that's the point of this thread!

 

[Anamatar IV]

hmm. Which leads me to another point of why the west would fail:

Merry and Pippin would not have been captured and made it into Fangorn. Thusly not rousing the ents. Meaning Isengard remains. The Fellowship would be on the entire other side of the Anduin. At Helms Deep there would be no Flame of The West to lead the charge and no White Rider to come bringer king Erkenbrand. Rohan=DEAD. There are now only three forces left: Sarumans, Saurons, and Gondors. Aragorn never comes to uplift Gondorian hearts (because he would not come while the ring was still intact and if he came after there would be no war to fight). Saruman starts attacking Gondor. Sauron attacks Gondor. Aragorn doesnt take paths of dead and lebannin falls. Gonor would have lost the pelannor fields battle had it not been for the rohirrim and army from lebannin and theyre both gonners. So west loses. Even if they managed to destroy the ring there would be no westron world to celebrate to. Aragorn would be king to no land.

 

[aragil]

Aragorn's plan in the books was to go to Minas Tirith. If the Ring goes into Mt Doom in mid-February, then Sauron never attacks Gondor, Lorien, Mirkwood, or Erebor. Gondor is then free to assist Rohan against Saruman (Saruman did not attack Rohan until ~February 25th) as per the Red Arrow Alliance. This time they have not only Aragorn, but also Boromir, Faramir, and a victorious Gandalf the Grey to lead them. Could Saruman attack both Rohan and Gondor and be victorious? Not in my book.

 

[Confusticated]

Gandalf could not have had the same effect if he had not fallen in Moria.
I imagine that Gandalf would have done things differently but still have been of assistance.
I think there would have been some other forms of intervention by Iluvatar. The possibilities seem endless though.

 

[Anamatar IV]

but how would gandalf had gotten into Mordor? Surely the wisdom of Gandalf the Grey would not trust Gollum. And evn if he did Gandalf was very surprised that Frodo took cirith ungol. And surely Gandalf the Wise would no the horrors of Udun that lay beyond the morannon---IF Gandalf could get past the morranon.

 

[aragil]

That's where the Eagles become so convenient.

 

[pohuist]

Originally posted by aragil
Aragorn's plan in the books was to go to Minas Tirith. If the Ring goes into Mt Doom in mid-February, then Sauron never attacks Gondor, Lorien, Mirkwood, or Erebor. Gondor is then free to assist Rohan against Saruman (Saruman did not attack Rohan until ~February 25th) as per the Red Arrow Alliance. This time they have not only Aragorn, but also Boromir, Faramir, and a victorious Gandalf the Grey to lead them. Could Saruman attack both Rohan and Gondor and be victorious? Not in my book.

I don't believe that in this scenario Saruman would attack at all. He would rather try to destroy all his and everything else and pretend to be good again, in order to return back and not face wrath of Iluvatar. Remember Frodo sayying that there is a chance Saruman would be healed from evil -- I think that chance would have been realized.

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
but how would gandalf had gotten into Mordor? Surely the wisdom of Gandalf the Grey would not trust Gollum. And evn if he did Gandalf was very surprised that Frodo took cirith ungol. And surely Gandalf the Wise would no the horrors of Udun that lay beyond the morannon---IF Gandalf could get past the morranon.

Sure Gandalf would distrust Gollum, but he could read him very well. I think Gandalf would have got much information from Gollum just as he had before.

The hobbits may well have been more safe Cirith Ungol had Gandalf been with them.
Sure Gandalf was affraid when he learned of their road, but I'm sure that was in part because they were alone. Maybe Gandalf would have been equally affraid had they went into Moria alone, though he was perfectly willing to let them go through Moria as long as he was there to protect them.

 

[Calimehtar]

If Gandalf hadn't fallen, all 9 of the fellowship would have been in Mordor and when Frodo and Sam had to march with the orcs... do you think Gandalf could pass as an orc? Do you think they could have defeated all those orcs? No, and as for the Eagles taking them, I think Mordor would spot the Eagles before they could land with the Fellowship and even if they did get the fellowship on the ground safe, Mordor would have the Fellowship's position and would know they are headed for Mt. Doom. So, I don't think they would have been able to destroy the ring.

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by BilbosBane
If Gandalf hadn't fallen, all 9 of the fellowship would have been in Mordor and...

I disagree. I think Gandalf would have known better than to take everyone into Mordor. Maybe Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli would have been on their way to Minas Tirith, were they could make themselves usefull. The question here is would Boromir have still been around? I don't know. Then there is also always the chance that other members of the fellowship would have been killed of by ocrs before going seperate ways.

Also, had any little thing gone differently, Frodo and Sam may not have had the need to disguise as ocrs.

Who can know what would happen.

 

[Anamatar IV]

Frodo and Sam actually had a big advantage when they were trapped almost caught by orcs in cirith ungol over a full 9 fellowship. 1 of the 2 is "dead" and the other is wearing the ring. They cant be caught really. If the entire 9 (or any number greater than 2) were in cirith ungol and about to be caught by orcs how do you hide them all? Sure you could have a lengthy battle but then Sauron is tipped to your whereabouts. So it was better for the quest to have frodo and sam go off alone. So maybe if gandalf had not fallen and he led the entire company up cirith ungol and they defeated shelob and then they get stuck between a rock and a hard place...ring goes to sauron...no king to gondor...Saruman overruns rohan...Gondor stands alone...eventually gondor falls. So my opinion is that Gandalfs fall was for the benefit of the mission and the west.