LordOfMoria
Balin Son of Fundin
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 292
ROFL! I can just read them and I don't have to study them. I read and study the books because I absolutely love them and desire to develop a decent amount of Tolkien knowledge to be able to adequately moderate on this forum and to try and help educate others about Tolkien's works through our Guild of Tolkienology.Originally posted by LordOfMoria
I think that is incredible that you or anyone just cant read the books, u have to study them!!!!!
Sorry turin56, but the movie is hardly an encyclopedia of correctness as far as the Lord of the Rings is concerned.Originally posted by turin56
He says in the movie that he walked this earth 300 lives of men. I hope that helps.
Originally posted by Grond
He is a Ainu from beyond Ea and is of the house of Manwe.
Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.
for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
Of course, there is also this that is said in the same chapter...from Unfinished Tales, The Istari
...On another page of jottings clearly belonging to the same period it is said that "Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aulë." There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olórin to Manwë and Varda, Curumo to Aulë, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Oromë, and Pallando also to Oromë (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).
None of these quotes state that Olorin is affiliated with Namo or Lorien, only that his name and his place of residence would do so. The only specific reference in UT is the one at the top of my quote that states he was of Manwe and Varda.same source
Olor is a word often translated "dream", but that does not refer to (most) human "dreams," certainly not the dreams of sleep. To the Eldar it included the vivid contents of their memory, as of their imagination: it referred in fact to clear vision, in the mind, of things not physically present at the body's situation. But not only to an idea, but to a full clothing of this in particular form and detail.
An isolated etymological note explains the meaning similarly:
olo's: vision, "phantasy:" Common Elvish name for "construction of the mind" not actually (pre)existing in Ëa apart from the construction, but by the Eldar capable of being by Art (Karmë) made visible and sensible. Olos is usually applied to fair construction having solely an artistic object (i.e. not having the object of deception, or of acquiring power).
Words deriving from this root are cited: Quenya olos "dream, vision," plural olozi/olori; õla- (impersonal) "to dream;" olosta "dreamy." A reference is then made to Olofantur, which was the earlier "true" name of Lórien, the Vala who was "master of visions and dreams," before it was changed to Irmo in The Silmarillion (as Nurufantur was changed to Námo (Mandos): though the plural Fëanturi for these two "brethren" survived in the Valaquenta).
These discussion of olos, olor are clearly to be connected with the passage in the Valaquenta (The Silmarillion pp.30-1) where it is said that Olórin dwelt in Lórien in Valinor...
So.... whose to say... except J. R. R. T.from HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion
And wise was Olorin, counsellor of Irmo: secret enemy of the secret evils of Melkor, for his bright visions drove away the imaginations of darkness.
I'm pretty sure that Olorin (Gandalf in Valinor) had a physical body. In fact, all denizens of Valinor did. Perhaps he just made himself look like an old man when coming to the Middle-Earth.
So yeah, Gandalf (or the being we know as Gandalf) is as old as other Maiar. He was there when the world was made. So were Saruman and Sauron, they are Maia too.
This just seems to say to me that they didn't have physical bodies that they were required to use, they were, as the quote says, just like clothing for their spirits.Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of the knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and thy need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby. But the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread.
Actually it says in the Silmarillion they did not have physical bodies, they were spirits that took the forms of men and/or elves:
This just seems to say to me that they didn't have physical bodies that they were required to use, they were, as the quote says, just like clothing for their spirits.
The quote was originally posted by Gothmog in this thread:
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?9391-Appearance-of-the-Valar
I'm pretty sure that Olorin (Gandalf in Valinor) had a physical body. In fact, all denizens of Valinor did. Perhaps he just made himself look like an old man when coming to the Middle-Earth.
So yeah, Gandalf (or the being we know as Gandalf) is as old as other Maiar. He was there when the world was made. So were Saruman and Sauron, they are Maia too.
Gandalf(Olorin) was not able to choose his physical form. This was the command of Manwe; that all the Istari come to Middle-Earth in the forms of men and not be allowed to exist in Middle-Earth in the fullness of their power. He made them to suffer from hurt and famine and know the weariness of mortal existense. For Manwe did not want a direct contest of power between the Istari and Sauron, he wanted them to get Men, Elves, and Dwarfs to handle their own problems and defeat Sauron without divine intervention.
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