Open Discussion#2---The folly of Thingol?

[Beleg]

From Doriath came little help. For Maedhros and his brothers, being constrained by their oath, had before sent to Thingol and reminded him with haughty words of their claim, summoning him to yield the Silmaril, or become their enemy. Melian counselled him to surrender it; but the words of the sons of Fëanor were proud and threatening, and Thingol was filled with anger, thinking of the anguish of Lúthien and the blood of Beren whereby the jewel had been won, despite the malice of Celegorm and Curufin. And every day that he looked upon the Silmaril the more he desired to keep it for ever; for such was its power.Therefore he sent back the messengers with scornful words. Maedhros made no answer, for he had now begun to devise the league and union of the Elves; but Celegorm and Curufin vowed openly to slay Thingol and destroy his people, if they came victorious from war, and the jewel were not surrendered of free will. Then Thingol fortified the marches of his realm, and went not to war, nor any out of Doriath save Mablung and Beleg, who were unwilling to have no part in these great deeds. To them Thingol gave leave to go, so long as they served not the sons of Fëanor; and they joined themselves to the host of Fingon.

Of the fifth Battle Nirnaeth Arnediod, Silmarillion, published

Given the circumstances, was Thingol's decision of not participating in the Nirnaeth, a correct one?

 

[Bucky]

Considering the War was without hope, yes.

Considering The Union Of Maedhros almost won the day without help from Nargothrond (just a bit) & Doriath & the treason of Ulfang's men, it makes one wonder if they could've won with that extra help.
But, the war is called 'hopeless' from the start, so I'd say no.

 

[Inderjit S]

Well, Thingol had ‘no hope’ in the Siege of Angband or defeating Morgoth through war, so what is the point in fighting against something you believe will be a failure? Esp. if you’re fighting with people who slew your kin. But here is most probably the main reason why he didn’t participate in the Nirnaeth.

But Celegorm and Curufin vowed openly to slay Thingol and destroy his people, if they came victorious from war

of the Fifth Battle; Published Silmarillion

 

[Maedhros]

Considering The Union Of Maedhros almost won the day without help from Nargothrond (just a bit) & Doriath & the treason of Ulfang's men, it makes one wonder if they could've won with that extra help.
But, the war is called 'hopeless' from the start, so I'd say no.

The thing was, was it hopeless because of the deeds of the Ñoldor in Valinórë or were there no possible way that all of the United Elves in ME could defeat the armies of Melkor.

 

[baragund]

The war was utlimately hopeless because no force of the children of Iluvatar could ever overcome one of the Valar. This was one of the warnings from Manwe's heralds to Feanor before he set out from Tirion in pursuit of Morgoth. (from Of the Flight of the Noldor in the published Silmarillion)

I would say Thingol was correct in thinking that the Girdle of Melian would indefinitely protect his kingdom from Morgoth. He just might have been right if it were not for the oath of Feanor.

 

[Beleg]

The thing was, was it hopeless because of the deeds of the Ñoldor in Valinórë or were there no possible way that all of the United Elves in ME could defeat the armies of Melkor.

The Armies of Morgoth were very great,

The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not contain it; and all the North was aflame with war.

So much so that they even managed o force the semi-angelic forces of the Valar to retreat,

Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire

There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Hate, and well nigh measureless had it become, so that Dor-na-Fauglith might by no means contain it, and all the North was aflame with war

Perhaps the last Quote from Quenta, Shapping of Middle-Earth provides a better illustration of the extent of his power.
Elves could never hope to defeat Morgothian armies as long as Morgoth led them. I believe Morgoth would have the same effect upon his armies, the same boasting effect that Sauron has on his armies, as soon as he was destroyed they quailed, but when they had a leader to govern them they were formidable.

Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings.

Could it be that his control extended to his 'servants' whose hroa afterall was created from the flesh of Arda? If so would he possess an inherent power upon them? His will would guide them and they could never allude his servitude? Something like Sauron's rings but more wide spread and less potent?
It is often said that the Elves [&Men] came close of defeating Morgoth's armies at Nirnaeth. However, it was only a battle, only the first in the string of battles that would have been fought if the Elves had won the day. How could the Elves have defeated the winged dragons? A muster of all the elves in Middle-earth would have been a long and arduous task which meant more time for Morgoth to nurse his strength. The impregnable fortress of Angband provided Morgoth with a hideyhole to which he could retreat in the case of a defeat and their nurse his strenght. Remember the Noldor in their full splendour on Middle-earth weren't able to conquer Angband. Sure at the start of the first age he didn't have much forces; and those that he had were of lesser potent and might but later with the introduction of Dragon's [Specially the Winged Ones] it would have been wellnigh Impossible to defeat Morgoth's forces.
Concluding I think that at the end of the First age, the combined efforts of all the united elves of Middle-earth wouldn't have been good enough to defeat Morgoth's forces.

 

[Beleg]

I would say Thingol was correct in thinking that the Girdle of Melian would indefinitely protect his kingdom from Morgoth. He just might have been right if it were not for the oath of Feanor.

But Morgoth never directly exercised his power against Doriath? The Griddle of Melian did withstand the power of a fellow Maia, Sauron, but would it have been able to withstand the assault of a potentially greater enemy of a higher order? Would it have been able to block a full-frontal attack from the enemy with Balrogs and Winged Dragons all used?

Well, Thingol had ‘no hope’ in the Siege of Angband or defeating Morgoth through war, so what is the point in fighting against something you believe will be a failure?

Defeating Morgoth might be without hope, but holding him and buying time was certainly a plausible option and a win in Nirnaeth would have bought the resident of Beleriands some more peaceful time.

Esp. if you’re fighting with people who slew your kin.

Was it necessary that he faught alongside Meadhros or co? They could have joined the forces of Fingon.

But, the war is called 'hopeless' from the start, so I'd say no.

The war was but not the battle. The battle could have been won and some more time bought and consequently give Ulmo more time to convince the Valar to help the Quendi and Atani.

 

[Inderjit S]

Was it necessary that he faught alongside Meadhros or co

Fingolfin's host still were guilty of the kinslaying, though they were, of course, forgiven. But what is the difference? They would still have been eventually fighting with the Eastern Force, if the plan worked out. A Eastern Force of whom, two of it's leaders vowed to slay you and ruin your kingdom.

ought and consequently give Ulmo more time to convince the Valar to help the Quendi and Atani.

The Valar would not aid the Elves and Men, no matter how much Ulmo pleaded for them too

 

[Beleg]

Fingolfin's host still were guilty of the kinslaying, though they were, of course, forgiven. But what is the difference? They would still have been eventually fighting with the Eastern Force, if the plan worked out. A Eastern Force of whom, two of it's leaders vowed to slay you and ruin your kingdom.

They would be fighting as a seperate entity; not under the command of the leaders of eastern force. They would be doing this for the benifit of all the elves and good men of Beleriand and I don't really believe that Curufin and co could have carried out their plans or had the means of carrying out their plans. Infact they would have had more reason to invade Doriath because it didn't take part in Nirnaeth; the crucial battle.

The Valar would not aid the Elves and Men, no matter how much Ulmo pleaded for them too

We can never be sure of that. They might have mellowed after a while and atleast agreed to see an embassy sent by the elves towards Valinor. Things might have straightened out from there on.
But the point is, a win at Nirnaeth would mean the preservation of the beauty of Beleriand and its dwellers; they would remain safe, even if for a little while. It would have bought more time; both for the dwellers and who knows what might have happened if the Kingdoms had lasted for say another five hundred years.
That offcourse is if you don't believe that the events that took place were pre-ordained/planned.

 

[Inderjit S]

The Doom of Mandos, like a Big Mac but beefier. Or something.

We can never be sure of that. They might have mellowed after a while and atleast agreed to see an embassy sent by the elves towards Valinor. Things might have straightened out from there on.

Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest

Of the Flight of the Noldor; Published Silmarillion

'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'

Of the Flight of the Noldor; Published Silmarillion

But in the Calacirya they set strong towers and many sentinels, and at its issue upon the plains of Valmar a host was encamped, so that neither bird nor beast nor elf nor man, nor any creature beside that dwelt in Middle-earth, could pass that leaguer.

Of the Sun and Moon

Thus it was that as Mandos foretold to them in Araman the Blessed Realm was shut against the Noldor; and of the many messengers that in after days sailed into the West none came ever to Valinor - save one only: the mightiest mariner of song.

Of the Sun and Moon

And it is said that in that time Ulmo came to Valinor out of the deep waters, and spoke there to the Valar of the need of the Elves; and he called on them to forgive them, and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth, and win back the Silmarils, wherein alone now bloomed the light of the Days of Bliss when the Two Trees still shone in Valinor. But Manwë moved not; and of the counsels of his heart what tale shall tell?
The wise have said that the hour was not yet come, and that only one speaking in person for the cause of both Elves and Men, pleading for pardon on their misdeeds and pity on their woes, might move the counsels of the Powers; and the oath of Fëanor perhaps even Manwë could not loose, until it found its end, and the sons of Fëanor relinquished the .Silmarils, upon which they had laid their ruthless claim. For the light which lit the Silmarils the Valar themselves had made.

Of the Fall of Gondolin; Published Silmarillion

"But the Great Sea is terrible, Tuor son of Huor; and it hates the Noldor, for it works the Doom of the Valar

Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin; Unfinished Tales

And many shores evil and strange it washes, and many islands of danger and fear infest it. I will not darken your heart son of Middle-earth, with the tale of my labour seven years in the Great Sea from the North even into the South, but never to the West. For that is shut against us.

Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin; Unfinished Tales

'Go now' said Ulmo 'Lest the sea devour thee for Osse obeys the will of Mandos, and is wroth, being a servant of the doom

Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin; Unfinished Tales

And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove

Grey Annals; HoME 11

For the Valar were open to the hearing of the prayers of those in Middle-earth, as ever before, save only that in the dark days of the Ban they would listen to one prayer only from the Ñoldor: a repentant prayer pleading for pardon

Last Writings; HoME 12

The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision.

Myths Transformed; HoME 10

Even so, and on the grounds of the stories as received, it is possible to view the matter otherwise. The closing of Valinor against the rebel Noldor (who left it voluntarily and after warning) was in itself just. But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.

Myths Transformed; HoME 10

Thereafter passed the hopeless war of the Eldar and Atani against Thangordrim

Appendix A

Yet Eärendil saw now no hope left in the lands of Middle-earth, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most often at the prow of Vingilot, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow; and ever its light grew greater as they drew into the West. And the wise have said that it was by reason of the power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessels save those of the Teleri had known;

Published Silmarillion

That offcourse is if you don't believe that the events that took place were pre-ordained/planned

'Hail Eärendil, of mariners most renowned, the looked for that cometh at unawares, the longed for that cometh beyond hope! Hail Eärendil, bearer of light before the Sun and Moon! Splendour of the Children of Earth, star in the darkness, jewel in the sunset, radiant in the morning!'

When he that is called Earendil setteth forth upon the shores of Aman, ye shall remember my words. In that hour ye will not say that the Statute had born fruit only in death; and the griefs that shall come ye shall weigh in the balance, and they shall not seem to heavy compared with the rising of the light when Valinor growth dim

Statute of Finwe and Miriel; HoME 10

Then, it is said, he stood forlorn looking out to sea, and it was night, but far away he could see a glimmer of light upon Eressëa ere it vanished into the West. Then he cried aloud: 'I will follow that light, alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready.' But even as he said this he received in his heart a message, which he knew to come from the Valar, though in his mind it was remembered as a voice speaking in his own tongue. And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. 'Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after.' 'I obey,' Círdan answered, and then it seemed to him that he saw (in a vision maybe) a shape like a white boat, shining above him, that sailed west through the air, and as it dwindled in the distance it looked like a star of so great a brilliance that it cast a shadow of Círdan upon the strand where he stood.

Last Writings; HoME 12

. Tuor in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner.# Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Ñoldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'.
More purely prophetic was the name Ardamírë 'Jewel of the World'; for Itarildë could not foresee in her waking mind the strange fate that brought at last the Silmaril into the possession of Eärendil, and enabled his ship to pass through all the shadows and perils by which Aman was at that time defended from any approach from Middle-earth.

Shibboleth of Feanor; HoME 12

 

[Inderjit S]

You'll need a stool to kiss Turgon! (Plus some stuff about Earendil and Ulmo. arf)

With regards to 'Ulmos plan', Ulmos 'plan' was not to aid the Noldor by praying to the Valar to forgive them, which would not happen, it was in Earendil that his hope lay.

And the tale, or tales, of Earendil the wanderer, He is important as the person who brings the Silmarillion to it's end...His fucntion as a representataive of both kidnreds, Men and Elves, is to find a sea-passage back to land of the Gods, and as a embassador persuade them to take thought again for the exiles, to pity them and rescue them from the enemy

Letter #131; Letters of Tolkien

"But behold!" said he, "in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. Yet Doom is strong, and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens; and I am diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper. The waters that run westward wither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land; for Elves and Men grow blind and deaf to me because of the might of Melkor. And now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble. The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen."

Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin; Unfinished Tales

It would have bought more time; both for the dwellers and who knows what might have happened if the Kingdoms had lasted for say another five hundred years

Brought more time for what exactly? Some more hope? They would have been over-come eventually. Things panned out the way they did because they meant to, it wasn't a accident. It was in Eru's plan for these events to take place in the way they did;

From this came the greatest loss and harm: the death of the Trees, and the exile and the anguish of the Noldor. Yet through this suffering there came also, as maybe in no other way could it have come, the victory of the Elder Days: the downfall of Angband and the last overthrow of Melkor.

Osanwe-Kwenta