Questions; Concerning 🧌Orcs and their Origins

[Aredhel]

I do not know if this has been said before...

When I read the Silmarillion, at the beginning, sort of, when Melkor captured the elves of a land, and they were slowly changed, and then were bred the Orcs...What do you think of that?

 

[Gothmog]

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainity. for who of the living has descenced into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor.

It is not certain that the Orcs were from the Elves, no one can give a definate answer.

Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved: and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs.

This is what the Elves believed. It is not necesseraly true. I think that there are Quotes from JRR Tolkien's letters that say the Orcs are not Elves but you will have to ask Cian about them. So The origin of the Orcs is a mystery to all save Iluvatar and perhaps the Valar.

 

[Aredhel]

Thanks s'much.

 

[Curufinwe]

Orcs

If Aule can make dwarves , Melkor can make Orcs. I can distinctivly remember it somewhere in the book that it says that Melkor created all the evil things excluding the maiar that followed him of course.

 

[bullroarer]

Aule did make the dwarves....but they had no life or will of their own until Eru gave it to them. I believe that he also gently scolded Aule for attempting to create new life, which was something only Eru was supposed to do. (This is from memory...my Silmarillion copy has been lost for a couple of years and I've yet to replace it)

There's also a reference in LOTR to the creation of Orcs during a conversation between Frodo and Sam; Sam asks Frodo what Orcs eat and drink or whether they can survive on poisons. (or something like that....don't have my copy handy) Frodo tells him that he who made the orcs cannot create...only twist and pervert.

I've always assumed that the orcs were elves who had been twisted through torment.

 

[Curufinwe]

If Elves were tormented into orcs dont you think they would of looked more like evil elves than the orcs do?

 

[gil-estel]

Tis also said in the LoTR and Sil taht the dark power could not create, only mar, as he spent much of his power in trying to destroy the works of the Valar.

For What its worth this lil star thinks that they were one with elves but 000's of years of corruption will take their toll-maybe why each hate each other so much???

 

[Grond]

I just posted this over on the movie thread and thought it might have pertinence here. Forgive me, but I didn't want to type the whole thing over again, so it is copied, verbatim.

The following summary of dialogue should clear up much concerning the Orc question. First off, this (according to Christopher Tolkien) is his best guess as to his father's final words on the origins of the orcs. From Morgoth's Ring, Chapter Myth's Transformed,

"...They bred and mutiplied rapidly whenever left undisturbed. So far as can be gleaned from the legends that have come down to us from our earliest days, it would seem that the Quendi had never yet encountered any Orcs of this kind before the coming of Orome to Cuivienen. "

and

"...the theory (that orcs originate from Man) remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own...he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets...They hated one another and often fought...they had languages of their own, and spoke among themselves in various tongues...They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain."

and

"...was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master whe he returned."

This is much debate and contradiction by the author with himself in this ten page summation by Christopher. But they are all based on passages written by JRRT's own hand. It appears that his final word was that Orcs reproduced like man and were of man stock.

 

[Curufinwe]

I much prefer thinking of them like that instead of elves, for elves were always fair, humans were grubby like the orcs.

 

[Merry]

Are ORCs Immortal?

If ORCs are a mockery of the Elves and were made by torturing the children of Iluvator, does this mean that they kept their original gifts that were given to them? Such gifts as being immortal, being wise and gifted in art and crafts? Obviously the ORCs were hideous and devoid of beauty but did they have the ability??

Although Melkor changed them from the outside, who changed them from the inside? Why did Eru reject them and not offer them an escape route back to beauty and perfection? Was Eru harsh to abandon them?

Your thoughts please.

(Ps It's good to be back, hope every-one is well!)

 

[Telchar]

Welcome back Merry!

Posted something about this in the "Orc hygiene & mental health?" thread yesterday..

They could be slain, and they where subject to diseases; but apart from these ills they died and were not imortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature rather short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain.

I wondered about posting this in another thread yesterday, but found it to be a bit off topic.. But now it's right on topic..

For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were imortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that history speakes of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.
Home X; Morgoths Ring p 418

This may have caused some to belive that the Orcs were imortal..


I belive the Quendi that were originally captured by Melkor where given acces to the Halls of Mandos, but I doubt that Iluvatar would give fear to the mockery made by Morgoth, as they were more like beast than the Children of Iluvatar

 

[Bombur]

Orcs and Trolls

First of all, this is my first thread and am using it to get to know many of you. Second there have been a few questions I have had about Orcs and Trolls. I want everyone's opinion, though I already have a few ideas myself. So here it goes:

1. Are orcs immortal?

I know that Orcs are corrupted Elves (supposedly) so therefore they may still have the immortality of the Eldalie. Supporting this, indirectly, is a conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat in LOTR Vol. III Book VI Ch. 1: The Tower of Cirith Ungol. I do not have the exact quote, but they mention "The Great Seige" possibly a reference to The Last Alliance's seige of Barad-dur. They speak of this almost as if they were there. Now they may be just refering to a seige by the Gondoreans sometime far later since they do work at the border of Mordor. Then again the Orcs may have lost this ability just like other evil creatures lose certain abilities as their corruption increases.

2. Are Orcs reincarnated?

Another power of Elves, Did the Orcs keep this? It would certainly help explain how they multiply so fast.

3. What exactly are Trolls?

In LOTR, Treebeard makes a few cryptic comments about how the Trolls are corruptions of Ents. Is this mentioned anywhere else?

I know this is a bit long-winded, but I hope this becomes a long thread. So have at it fellow Tolkien-ites

 

[Merry]

First of all, Hullo Bombur!! Welcome to the forum.

I had this exact same question a few weeks ago, I too thought that ORC's may be immortal. Only Telcher replied but there were some good quotes. Check out:

http://www.THETOLKIENFORUM.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1689

Although the ORC's are a corruption of the Elves, I don't believe that Iluvatar would have allowed them to keep the gifts that he bestowed to his children. I also think that the ORCs could not travel west over the sea so I am sure that they had no privilages.

I also asked why Eru appears to abandon these tortured elves and didn't offer them a return to perfection and the favour of the gods. In Christianity, God provided his son to ransom the world from sin but in Tolkiens world, no provision is made. I find this harsh.......

 

[Grond]

I'll have to look up the thread, but I posted a long dissertation on this very issue not to long ago. For my findings to be relevant, you must be willing to accept some of JRRT's later writings as my quotes come primarily from the HoMe: Morgoth's Ring and The Peoples of Middle-earth.

In these, Tolkien indicated that orcs were made in mockery of Elves but were of man stock. They were thus not immortal and had the same final destination as man after death (mystery of Mandos). It also stated that orcs had a shorter lifespan than man and gave an explanation as to the logic of how orcs could have appeared shortly after the March from Cuivenien (sp) which is before man appeard.

As it stood, in the Silmarillion (which is also considered a later work of the author), the orcs were made as a mockery of Elves and poointed out that may of the Moriquendi who fled from Orome were captured by Melkor and were probably the "seed-stock" of orcs. I'll try to find my quotes....

 

[aragil]

From The Two Towers, The Choices of Master Samwise:

'They would,' grunted Gorbag. 'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there would be a lot more room. what d'you say?--if we get a chance, you an me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'
'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'


Here's one quote that always gave me the impression that orcs had long life spans. Shagrat certainly seems to be reminiscing about something he lived through, and from what I know of Middle-Earth history there wasn't any prolonged period of time in the third age that an orc would have thought of as good ol' times. That sounds like something more out of the second age, when the initial expansion of Mordor went largely unchecked.

The seige quote (By Gorbag):

'You may well put your thinking cap on, if you've got one. it's no laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before, as you should know well enough. There's no grief in that; but think--there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the great Siege. Something has slipped.'

I'd say that he's definitely talking about the siege of Barad-dur here. In all of Tolkien's works I don't know of any other great Siege in Mordor. Of course, in this case Gorbag doesn't quite use the language that would definitively place him at the siege. Oh well. What I reall do like about this chapter is that it gives us a good look at Orc culture- what their motivations might be, etc. I certainly think that they are different from 'the beasts'. Gorbag is at least able to put some thoughts together fairly quickly and figure out a lot more about what is going on in the wide world than his superiors might want for him to know.

Anyway, I think that the orc mortality question goes with a lot of the discussions regarding how Tolkien was always going back and re-writing his works. Orcs were originaly intended to be corruptions of Elves, and so probably would have had some characteristics in common. However, as time wore on (after the publication of LotR, I believe) Tolkien began to feel that Orcs were more akin to corrupted men. One of his comments in HoME certainly seems to indicate that he was considering the Orcs as corruptions of men, which could have meant that he would then go and revise the passage of the Silmarillion so that this idea would be consistent. Unfortunately the good professor never got the opportunity to go back and do this, so we have Orcs descended from Elves and Gorbag reminiscing about what appears to be the second age.

 

[aragil]

Oops! Sorry Grond- didn't see your post. 'How?' you ask. 'There were only 3 posts on the entire thread!' Yeah, well, maybe I should stop posting at 2:30 am.

 

[Grond]

No prob Aragil. I think one issue that probably bothered JRRT (I know if would have bothered me) was the problem in having Orcs be immortal. If orcs were immortal (given their proclivity for multiplying) they would have overrun Middle-earth in the First Age. I feel that this reason alone would be sufficient to review and revise his position.... but, alas, we'll never know for sure.

 

[Bombur]

I agree that Orcs probably weren't immortal, but since we never see an Orc female (to my knowledge), I thought that Orcish reincarnation would would explain their rapid population increases.

 

[Hirila]

For those who have seen the film:

Do you remember Saruman making the Uruk-hai? These really ugly things. In the LotR it is said he made them out of men and orcs.

And perhaps that is the answer why we never see female orcs.
Perhaps they are "made" in a similar way. (Or at least the first of them were made like that out of some careless elves that came into Morgoths way.)

But on the other hand we don`t know if there don`t exist orc-towns (perhaps far in the north, perhaps deep down under Mount Gundabad). There female orcs may live.

 

[Bombur]

Orc origins

I seem to remember that the Elves met the Orcs before they met men. Now I know we do not know exactly when Men came to be but if the Orcs were around before Men then they must be Elves. Wait, here's an interesting thought: What if Melkor was trying to corrupt the Elves he captured into the image of Men that he may have seen in the Ainulindale? What I mean is, maybe Melkor saw a little something about Men in the Ainulindale and he tried to make the Elves like men. Besides, Melkor did not have to use only Elves in his genetic crossbreeding. He may have crossed Elves with Dwarves or some other creature. This is just speculation, though, as I am in way over my head. I haven't finished reading UT and am nowhere near HoME.