Which of these 4 middle earth battles is the biggest?

[1stvermont]

because in the 2nd movie, in the battle of hornburg, the uruk-hais almost chopped all the elves.but if you don't see the movies as a reference, my neck is thinner than a hair.

Ah, I see. well even from the movie did you not watch the elves unload volleys of arrows and legalas killed how many? 42? the uruks outnumbered them and in medevalistic type warfare, numbers matter. The camera cant show all the kills they capture more the momentum of battle. I saw hundreds of uruks go down and what a dozen elves?

 

[Elthir]

Gando, if you're looking for Tolkien's "wrathful" comment about (a depiction of) Legolas, it's in (at the end of the chapter maybe, or near-ish the end) The History of Eriol or Ælfwine, The Book of Lost Tales II.

If memory serves 🐾

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Ah, I see. well even from the movie did you not watch the elves unload volleys of arrows and legalas killed how many? 42? the uruks outnumbered them and in medevalistic type warfare, numbers matter. The camera cant show all the kills they capture more the momentum of battle. I saw hundreds of uruks go down and what a dozen elves?

What does shooting an arrow have to do with killing with a sword? If you watch the extended version, the berserker uruk-hais will cut down at least 3 elves on their own.

 

[Elthir]

Admittedly I have not read the lost tales since it was early pre third age writings. So you can make up any quote you desire to support your position and I will have no way of correcting you lol.

"And thus entered Geroc into the strife of Gondolon; for with arms mightier than Aragorn or Imrahil, he tunneled under Tumladen with the strength of badgers one thousand, and his swordy skills far surpassed even the One, who is named Eru in some Elven tongue."

The Fall of Gondolon, The Book of Lost Tales III, written early 1900.

 

[Olorgando]

Gando, if you're looking for Tolkien's "wrathful" comment about (a depiction of) Legolas, it's in (at the end of the chapter maybe, or near-ish the end) The History of Eriol or Ælfwine, The Book of Lost Tales II.

If memory serves 🐾

*headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang* 🤬
Memory serves. Page 327 in my paperback. No wonder I never find it. Saved quote and book and page reference to a word file on my hard drive.

Christopher Tolkien commenting
'Long afterwards my father would write, in a wrathful comment on a ‘pretty’ or ‘ladylike’ pictorial rendering of Legolas:

“He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship.”'

1) Aragorn had better not get Legolas mad at him, or he'd be in big trouble.
2) Watch out what you post about JRRT's Elves, or you might have his wrathful ghost haunting you in a very unpleasant way.

 

[Elthir]

But was he [Aragorn] a better swordsman than Glorfiendel? I don't remember anywhere specifically stating such, it could be, that was not my impression but I don't ever remember the two being compared.

There's no text (said Elthir, now more confidently); nothing published to date anyway, and in my opinion, I'd be surprised if Tolkien ever made such a comparison.

Tolkien did write that the reincarnated Glorfindel had "become almost an equal" to the Maiar, for though he was an incarnate "his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice" (Tolkien, Last Writings, Glorfindel II).

That doesn't necessarily say anything about swordsmanship, or Aragorn, or Geroc of the House of the Silver Badger, but anyway.

 

[Olorgando]

What does shooting an arrow have to do with killing with a sword? If you watch the extended version, the berserker uruk-hais will cut down at least 3 elves on their own.

In PJ's film. I've watched all three LoTR films, including the Extended Editions. Same for The Hobbit films; I have cinematic and extended versions of all six films. I've drawn the following conclusions:
PJ can't do Dwarves, he's hopeless at it, he simply can't stop making fun of them.
He also stinks at Elves. Here there is a problem every director has: portraying JRRT's Elves with merely human actors. This might be a case for CGI.
He loves Orcs and all other baddies. His main claim to fame before LoTR was making low-budget horror flics. It shows at times.

 

[Elthir]

I agree Gando.

And I think Jackson's Uruk-hai are larger than Tolkien's idea of them (in my opinion too, Sauron bred Uruks, Saruman had some, and trained them well). Give me a six and a half to seven foot Noldo with a longsword and watch Tolkien's "little" uruks run!

Although the Uruk in Moria, the Orc-chieftain, did pretty well against Boromir and Aragorn . . .

. . . at least at first! Thank Eru for mithril shirts!

 

[1stvermont]

What does shooting an arrow have to do with killing with a sword? If you watch the extended version, the berserker uruk-hais will cut down at least 3 elves on their own.

My apologies I was thinking in terms of warrior vs warrior, not swordsmiths. Also, the berserkers were a special breed of uruks, not your standard. I would mention however that the movie captures generally how the battle is going. So if you watch the battle for minis tirith you see once the first wall is broken almost all the casualties are gondorian soldiers and you don't see orcs being killed. This is not to say orcs are better than gondorian soldiers 1v1 at all times, it simply captures and shows the viewer the battle is going now against the defenders and they are in a desperate situation and taking heavy losses. Same when the deeping wall is breached at helms deep, then you see things like the berserker killing multiple elves. I also saw Gimli and Legolas kill beserkers.

In PJ's film. I've watched all three LoTR films, including the Extended Editions. Same for The Hobbit films; I have cinematic and extended versions of all six films. I've drawn the following conclusions:
PJ can't do Dwarves, he's hopeless at it, he simply can't stop making fun of them.
He also stinks at Elves. Here there is a problem every director has: portraying JRRT's Elves with merely human actors. This might be a case for CGI.
He loves Orcs and all other baddies. His main claim to fame before LoTR was making low-budget horror flics. It shows at times.

I liked Gimli, I hated the Hobbit movie portrayals. My kids own the Hobbit, i refuse to dump my money on such garbage

I believe I posted a few quotes of Tolkiens saying elves were... well... human for the most part especially in appearance.

 

[Olorgando]

I believe I posted a few quotes of Tolkiens saying elves were... well... human for the most part especially in appearance.

I'm sure you have, but he also stated them to be quite exceptional in appearance, by human norms.
I think PJ got that a bit wrong, going a bit too far into the "pretty" direction that might have incurred JRRT's wrath.

BTW that bit about the film Hobbits having outsized feet ...
Wrong again, that is a characteristic of the family of Proudfoots, guests at Bilbo's 111 Party, but not of Hobbits in general.
And to return (slightly) to the topic of battles, both Shire "battles", Greenfields fought by Hobbits led by Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took in TA 2747 (SR 1147), and Bywater led by Merry and Pippin in TA 3019 (SR 1419), have been sniffed at by some as "hardly more than barroom brawls". 🍻

 

[1stvermont]

*headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang* 🤬
Memory serves. Page 327 in my paperback. No wonder I never find it. Saved quote and book and page reference to a word file on my hard drive.

Christopher Tolkien commenting
'Long afterwards my father would write, in a wrathful comment on a ‘pretty’ or ‘ladylike’ pictorial rendering of Legolas:

“He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship.”'

1) Aragorn had better not get Legolas mad at him, or he'd be in big trouble.
2) Watch out what you post about JRRT's Elves, or you might have his wrathful ghost haunting you in a very unpleasant way.

I was just thinking, did not Gimli perform as well as Legolas in the battles? I think he one-upped him at minis tirith no?

 

[m4r35n357]

Why are we even discussing Jackson in the HoME section?

Nothing in the films happened in HoME.

 

[Olorgando]

Why are we even discussing Jackson in the HoME section?

Nothing in the films happened in HoME.

Well, going O(ff)T(opic) has a long tradition in TTF, one that I have "upheld" on numerous occasions.

But as to HoMe, don't forget that volumes 6 to 8 and a part of 9 dealt with the development of LoTR. I wouldn't want to bet against the possibility that PJ might have picked up some suggestions there (but I'd prone to bet that it would be a tidbit rejected by JRRT for the published book! 😈 ).

I was just thinking, did not Gimli perform as well as Legolas in the battles? I think he one-upped him at minis tirith no?

In the book, I don't recall them keeping score at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. They did so at Helm's Deep, with Gimli coming out ahead by one.

 

[1stvermont]

In the book, I don't recall them keeping score at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. They did so at Helm's Deep, with Gimli coming out ahead by one.

This has been a bit for me to, i thought they did keep track but in the movies they were even in the books gimli was one up. Can anyone help these two lost lore masters out? i am at work so i cant go searching at the moment.

 

[Olorgando]

This has been a bit for me to, i thought they did keep track but in the movies they were even in the books gimli was one up. Can anyone help these two lost lore masters out? i am at work so i cant go searching at the moment.

Book, easy.
Book Three, chapter VIII "The Road to Isengard" in "The Two Towers", right after the first paragraph:

"... and beside them walked Gimli the dwarf. He had no helm, and about his head was a linen band stained with blood; but his voice was loud and strong.
'Forty-two, Master Legolas!' he cried. 'Alas! My axe is notched: the forty-second had an iron collar on his neck. How is it with you?'
'You have passed my score by one,' answered Legolas. 'But I do not grudge you the game, so glad am I to see you on your legs!'"

Book anything of the sort at the Pelennor Fields: I'm pretty certain there was no such comparison. I'll leave it as a challenge for someone to come up with the quote that disproves me. 😜

Film: of course there's the "Legolas superhero" scene where he shoots three arrows at once into the back of the head (or neck) of the Mûmak (he used two to take down the Troll in the chamber of Marzabul in Moria, in "Fellowship" the film), then surfing down the trunk to meet Gimli indignantly snorting "its still only counts as one!". But even here in the film, I don't believe they ever got around to comparing scores ...

I'd like to know the opinion of a competitive archer, preferably an Olympic medalist, on how likely it is in the real world to try and shoot three (or even two) arrows at a time from a single bow and not make a hopeless fool of oneself (long ago, I had archery in school sport).

 

[1stvermont]

Book, easy.
Book Three, chapter VIII "The Road to Isengard" in "The Two Towers", right after the first paragraph:

"... and beside them walked Gimli the dwarf. He had no helm, and about his head was a linen band stained with blood; but his voice was loud and strong.
'Forty-two, Master Legolas!' he cried. 'Alas! My axe is notched: the forty-second had an iron collar on his neck. How is it with you?'
'You have passed my score by one,' answered Legolas. 'But I do not grudge you the game, so glad am I to see you on your legs!'"

Book anything of the sort at the Pelennor Fields: I'm pretty certain there was no such comparison. I'll leave it as a challenge for someone to come up with the quote that disproves me. 😜

Film: of course there's the "Legolas superhero" scene where he shoots three arrows at once into the back of the head (or neck) of the Mûmak (he used two to take down the Troll in the chamber of Marzabul in Moria, in "Fellowship" the film), then surfing down the trunk to meet Gimli indignantly snorting "its still only counts as one!". But even here in the film, I don't believe they ever got around to comparing scores ...

I'd like to know the opinion of a competitive archer, preferably an Olympic medalist, on how likely it is in the real world to try and shoot three (or even two) arrows at a time from a single bow and not make a hopeless fool of oneself (long ago, I had archery in school sport).

well it seems a scored a 50% on that thanks for looking it up. My keen memory did detect Gimlies one up on the wood elf, however it failed on the score at minis tirith.

 

[m4r35n357]

Well, going O(ff)T(opic) has a long tradition in TTF, one that I have "upheld" on numerous occasions.

OK, so I'm the new boy here, but this whole thread makes me sad

This is about the most serious Tolkien area there is, and here we are talking about Jackson's cheesy CGI circus and his silly battles.

Morgoth has won, as he always does. Perhaps "The Jackson Forum" would be more appropriate . . . . Will I regret posting this - who knows?

 

[1stvermont]

OK, so I'm the new boy here, but this whole thread makes me sad

This is about the most serious Tolkien area there is, and here we are talking about Jackson's cheesy CGI circus and his silly battles.

Morgoth has won, as he always does. Perhaps "The Jackson Forum" would be more appropriate . . . . Will I regret posting this - who knows?

I have been on this forum for some time and this is by far the most Jackson has ever been discussed. Cheer up.

 

[Gothmog]

Dagor Bragollach start

There came a time of winter, when night was dark and without moon; and the wide plain of Ard-galen stretched dim beneath the cold stars, from the hill-forts of the Noldor to the feet of Thangorodrim. The watchfires burned low, and the guards were few; on the plain few were waking in the camps of the horsemen of Hithlum. Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank upon the air, and was deadly.

End

War ceased not wholly ever again in Beleriand; but the Battle of Sudden Flame is held to have ended with the coming of spring, when the onslaught of Morgoth grew less.

Dagor Bragollach started in the Winter and 'is held to have ended with the coming of spring' so to be noticeably still in Winter and last until Spring would seem to indicate a period of between 1 and 2 months.


The Battle of the Pelennor Fields lasted a full day from Sun rise to Red sun set. The Siege of Minas Tirith was two, perhaps 3 days.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

JRRT had mentioned that the battle of Minas-Tirith was the largest since the age of Isildur, further, the battle of Dogarlad was 2nd largest battle, as an result, we can make the conclusion that battle of Minas-Tirith was the 3rd largest.